Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How... - Page 2

I saw Feri's email--I may try the same tomorrow night. I've never went the treatment route (unless you consider a carpeted living room an uncontrolled dampening effect LOL) due to aesthetics/WAF, but if we're really digging deeper into the rabbit hole, it can't be avoided at least thinking about in response to measured deficits in various domains. Even Audyssey Pro can always do so much....

Enjoy Bruce before we all head off to 'grad school'

 

Wahey!  Thanks Feri. This is on my agenda for today.

 

Brilliant. This is what I think many of us want. Your experience here is invaluable Jerry - sometimes it isn't the answers that are the most important thing - it's knowing what the questions are!

 

WAF is always an issue of course. I am very lucky there - Mrs Keith is very tolerant. And I have my own dedicated room. (But that was also with consent from Mrs Keith of course).

 

Die Hard 2 is the worst of the four but it was still worth seeing again after all this time - it is better on BD than I have ever seen it. Sound is typical of the era - not bad but not on a par with current standards. Die Hard 3 tonight (I watched 4 first).

Thnx so much, Keith, very clear and helpful summary. Your contributions on the threads are awesome!

I also had the OM but returned it within the 30d period after just a few measurements as I didn't have the time to use it-and I was hoping something like this very exciting development in REW might occur. This is a very affordable option with a great on-line support community, just what I was looking for!
More newb questions soon to follow...

Sorry about my very basic newb questions here.
This laptop is what I use for my Pro calibrations. It is not the "latest" but was designed for gaming/"HT" and has HDMI as well as 1/8" line in and line out audio:
Lenovo IdeaPad Y710 4054 Laptop Computer

Operating System Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium
Networking Ethernet (10/100 Mbps), Wireless Ethernet - 11 Mbps IEEE802.11b, Wireless Ethernet - 54 Mbps IEEE802.11a, Wireless Ethernet - 54 Mbps IEEE802.11g, Wireless Ethernet - 540 Mbps IEEE802.11n
Display Type Active Matrix LCD (TFT)
Interface Type Audio - Line In (1/8" Mini), Audio - Line Out (1/8" Mini), Bluetooth, Ethernet - RJ45 Twisted-Pair (XBaseT), FireWire 400/IEEE 1394 - 4 pin, HDMI, Serial - RJ11 Modular (Phone/Telco), USB - Universal Serial Bus 2.0, Video - S-Video, Video - 15 pin High-Density D-shell (VGA)
Included Drives DVD+-RW DL
Video Chipset ATI Mobility Radeon HD 2600 XT
Processor Type Intel Core 2 Duo Mobile
Screen Size 17
Processor Speed 1830
Installed Memory 2000
Hard Drive Size 250000

Feri, does this laptop allow me to take full advantage of what you refer to in #2?

 

<blush>  Thanks SoM.  Yes, Jason has tapped into a big pent-up demand I think - full-scale measuring for less than 100 bucks - has to be the way to go. 

I will answer in RED/Bold below.

Edited by mtbdudex - 1/7/13 at 1:30pm

 

Damn! I got the laptop out ready to have a go and although I was convinced I had a long HDMI cable (it has to reach from the HT room to the AVP which is in a separate room/closet) I don't. I have had to order one. As soon as it comes I will have a play...

Here is good example of using ETC and the string method to track down by member "fotto"
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1374014/room-measurement-treatment#post_21345767
a pict from that thread

note/fyi: if you're performing the string test to identify the boundary incident of a particular indirect energy spike (specular reflection) as measured via the ETC, make sure your measurement setup/platform has hardware loopback and REW configured accordingly (eg, the direct signal within ETC should NOT correspond to 0ms but should instead correspond to the actual time (based on actual flight path) from source-to-receiver(mic) - with hardware propagation delay accounted for.

and yes, when performing this type of analysis, you should be measuring one source at a time --- that is, unless you are of the variety that likes to solve multi-var headaches (a + b + c = 5; solve for b).

FYI - this is the guy who didn't understand what the X-axis represented on the ETC (after "debating" it like an expert for many pages in an AVS thread), who didnt understand that we DONT use the ETC for LF analysis (modal region), who didn't know what the "E" in ETC stands for (the history: energy --> envelope ... google won't tell him that!), and also the guy that claimed that he sees "no reason for time-domain analysis in small rooms". remember that thread, amirm?

no offense but you should spend a little more time learning acoustics and acoustical analysis before ruining another thread here...

edit: oh, i just clicked his link. he goes on to display WATERFALL/CSD plots and insists on referring to it as the time-domain. sorry, guy - swing and a miss!
Edited by localhost127 - 1/7/13 at 12:14pm

if anyone is confused as to why time-domain analysis in small rooms is so "eye-opening" ... think of it like this:

the frequency response (frequency domain) simply provides the perspective of the end-state response (snap-shot) that is the result of all of the direct and indirect energy superposing at the receiver position (listening position/mic). the frequency response details you NOTHING with respect to how the indirect energy arrives at the listening position.

it's akin to a 40 car pile-up, where-by the frequency response merely shows the end state of the crash (end state response of ALL of the cars/signals combining).

it details you nothing with regards to the individual car's (indirect specular reflection's) gain (speed), direction of arrival (vector), and time arrival (as not all 40 cars/signals crashed into each other simultaneously). from here, one can isolate a particular indirect specular reflection to it's source boundary (eg, first-order sidewall reflection, edge diffraction from speaker cabinet, edge diffraction from small object placed within direct signal path, coffee table reflection, etc) - and make the decision (based on user requirements) on what to do (if anything). also useful for verifying the individual components of your source are properly aligned in time, and will clearly display sources of flutter echo (or reflections bouncing between two parallel surfaces - as the energy spikes will be of the same time (distance) spacings). if there is a severe coupling issue, that too can be visually identified - as one might wonder why energy is impeding the listening position BEFORE the direct signal (hint: speed of sound in a solid vs that of air).

eg, if one is looking for an accurate representation of the direct signal without the room masking or skewing localization and imaging, then one would identify any high-gain/sparse/early arriving indirect specular reflections via the ETC and attenuate as necessary by whatever means of treatment. verification can be provided once the treatment has been procured and placed to verify the root problem has been solved or addressed based on the user's design requirements.

and the ETC displays this information based on the ACTUAL source/receiver positions, room geometry, polar response of speakers, and complex acoustical impedance of the boundaries! something the "mirror" will NOT tell you.




merely another tool at one's disposal to provide the appropriate "perspective" for the particular task at hand.
Edited by localhost127 - 1/7/13 at 12:29pm

Hi SoM, I hope so.

But let's see. First, please download the latest versions of REW (5.01 Beta 12) and ASIO4ALL (2.11 Beta 1), if you haven't done so yet. Then in REW open Preferences -> Soundcard tab. In Drivers select ASIO, in ASIO Device select ASIO4ALL:



Now click on ASIO Control Panel. Hover mouse over Device List and look for 8 channel support. Click to activate it.



In REW Soundcard tab on the dropdown menu of Output now you should see 8 channels numbered 1-8. (Sorry if some text appears in Hungarian, "hangkimenet" means: "audio output")

1: LF
2: RF
3: CC
4: LFE
5: SL
6: SR
7: SBL
8: SBR



And finally your Denon should display: Multi CH IN and all 8 input indicators on the left side should be lit.



You need no other cable between laptop and AVR than 1 single HDMI cable. You may disconnect all analog audio cables you might have already hook up, no need for that kinda "stuff" anymore.

Cross my fingers for Ya.
Edited by mogorf - 1/7/13 at 12:45pm

Well, something isn't working.  Here is my ASIO control panel:

 

 

I only have HD Audio Device and Realtek HD Audio Device.  All show Out: 2x (no 8-channel output).  Does this mean my laptop will not support the 8 channels?

 

In addition, when I click on the Output drop-down, all it shows is "Not connected"--I don't even get the two channels.

 

.

I'm going to try this later tonight on my Dell laptop, but do you have any other audio drivers enabled for two-channel audio (or an external monitor displaying HDMI video)? You may want to investigate if there's any HDMI-related conflicts than downmix/force the ASIO audio driver down to two-channel. If that makes any sense....
Edited by sdrucker - 1/7/13 at 2:26pm

 

I had hoped that this wouldn't digress into a PC trouble-shooting exercise.  I have audio drivers loaded in the system for the Sounblaster X-Fi external USB soundcard that I have been using for REW.  I guess I could uninstall those drivers if I have too, but they are quite time-consuming to uninstall and reinstall.

 

BTW, when I hook the HDMI cable into the 4520 and select AUX1 as the input, my PC's desktop is displayed on the TV monitor.  I wasn't expecting that, but I guess it doesn't make any difference, just a bit distracting.

 

Second note:  my laptop is an AMD-based laptop, not an Intel-based one.  So I suspect there may be some differences.

Yeah, ...well, ...I also wish I could help out our dear Jerry for configuring his laptop to output 8 channels. IMHO, once the laptop has HDMI the multichannel support should be there somewhere hidden deep and waiting to be activated. Usually the sound cards on the mobo are only 2 channel devices, but a closer look into Device Manager may reveal where the multichannel settings are hiding. On my laptop (Toshiba A660-1EU) it is the Intel Graphics card that has the sound chip supporting multichannel that simply pops-up in the ASIO4ALL Control Panel in REW Soundcard tab.

@ Localhost127

 

Please don't take this the wrong way, because I appreciate your knowledge and feedback.  However, the several posts you made earlier have immediately jumped to what I would call an "advanced" level.  This thread was specifically started to help non-REW users test out whether the simplified kit consisting of a PNP USB mic and an HDMI connection would entice them to migrate from their existing measurement solutions (OmniMic in many cases), or simply start using REW as their first measurement solution.  We need to focus on walking before we start running, and for the time being "walking" is getting everyone set up with the right equipment, the software loaded and working properly, and the first set of measurements taken.  This may seem very basic to you, but we need to start somewhere.

 

When we are all to the point where we have familiarized ourselves with REW to the point that we can configure it to take meaningful measurements, we will welcome more advanced feedback, which I know you will be able to provide.

 

Anyway, that's just my thoughts, and others may have an entirely different opinion.  I hope I have not offended anyone.

I think this is where we need jevansoh to chime in....or someone that has ASIO4ALL experience...before you go down that path. But I think we need to ID how this driver plays with other drivers on a PC.

Is there a simple way you can disable the Soundblaster (like check disable on your audio settings, short of the nuclear option of uninstall/reinstall?

Re AMD, beats me, but on my Dell with an Intel CPU, I can check/uncheck audio sources in the Control Panel (Windows 7, 64-bit).

I've got a similar issue to test at home - I've used my HDMI connection for an external monitor, and I need to see whether I can use a splitter for both the monitor and HDMI output to my 4311 to get 8-channel output, or I'll have to do a work-around, like a Display Port to HDMI connection (or have to choose between having a monitor and REW/ASIO4ALl active). Jason thought it might work in a PM, but we need to test it.

Edit: I see that Feri already did chime in...and given how HDMI works, the graphics card may be the source of (or solution to) your problem. Maybe the AMD/Intel thing is the issue, but I think we need some "tech support" to help you through this .
Edited by sdrucker - 1/7/13 at 4:00pm

Porting this over from the Audyssey thread:


Forgive my density, but I still don't understand why I would need a splitter AND a separate RCA male-to-male cable.

What I have right now is a 3.5mm > RCA stereo cable, male to male. One male 3.5mm "mini" jack on one end, and two male RCA cables on the other end.

You say that I should instead have a 3.5mm > RCA stereo cable, but male to FEMALE. And then connect ONE of the female RCA ends to a single male-to-male RCA cable.

How on earth is this different from just using my current cable and then only plugging ONE of the sides in?

I understand the signal is mono, and the cable is stereo, but if it's a mono signal wouldn't both channels get the same signal? Meaning L/R of the RCA stereo pair would have identical output, and I could just plug one or the other in (or both if I want to test the CC)?

+1. Valuable in-depth guidance will be a bliss when time comes.

Thnx, VERY helpful and much appreciated! I will try that out this weekend.

Ok got my UNIK-1 over the weekend and picked it up at work today.

Downloaded the lastest REW and ASIO files. Fired them up and the mic was recognized (Yeehaw) asked if I had a calibrated file and said no.

Then went in to the ASIO control panel and I see the mic and my 3 SmartAudio HD options of Conexant HD Audio Capture, HD Audio output and HS Stereo Mix. Then I have an Intel Display audio and this is the only one that shows 8 options. I have both that and the mic active in the control panel. I clicked Always resample on both.

In the drop down for Output I have 8 options for Display Audio Output 1.1, 1.2...
In the drop down for Input I have 2 Unik-1 to choose, but both look the same.

I click on Check Levels and I don't get any sound regardless of the 1.x I choose. I am not sure that the HDMI from my laptop to the AVR is really 'talking'. If I unplug the HDMI though then I only have 2 output options, so I think it 'see's' it, but something is off obviously.

I have a Marantz 7005 and I assigned the AUX1 to HDMI6, but not sure as to the other settings for Input Mode, there is Analog, HDMI, Auto and 7.1+SW. I picked 7.1 even though I only have 5.1 setup.

I am sure it is something simple, but my first rodeo with REW is causing me some grief.

If there is anything that jumps out at anyone (Jason ), please PM and let me know your thoughts or general forum support if welcome.

Just reading the above strongly suggests that the enthusiastic poster who got us all excited about how REW was now plug-n-play was a bit over zealous. I played around for a couple of hours today and made zero progress. I bought the USB mic and will try (again) to get my system working but I am having trouble downloading and installing the latest beta version of the software that supports the auto recognition of the USB mic. Anyone working on a very detailed step by step set of instructions for morons like me?

Reading cdnbum88's post makes me worry that not all HDMI outputs on laptops and PCs are going to offer 8 channel or ASIO support. Eventually jevansoh should make a list of supported audio chipsets and graphics cards with HDMI audio out that are compatible with REW. Maybe make a note in the first few posts of this thread for users having HDMI problems to state what audio chipset, soundcard, or graphics card they are using including make, model, version #? The driver version may also help.

I'm glad this thread exists because I'm going to ask alot of dummy questions. I'm probably going to order the USB mic, but I have some setup questions after looking through the REW documentation. My questions are primarily with calibrating for LFE material for the subwoofer channel, and larger bit depths.
I noticed in the 'Checking Levels' section of of REW Help, it mentions increasing the volume or signal level so SPL meter reads around 75 dB. I though the LFE channel was supposed to be played back 10 dB higher than the main channels? Does the bit depth of a file (ie 16 bit, 24 bit) determine how loud the pink
noise signal should be recorded and measured? In other words, would the process for calibrating a system for DVD (16 bit audio) be any different than that for bluray (24 bit in some cases)? Would a lower playback level for a higher bit depth file actually skew the calibration in a less-desired way? Would setting the output level to 85 dB or 95 dB on the sub channel be better if I'm primarily playing back 24 bit audio? Maybe I'm just getting confused between the theoretical dynamic range limited by the bit depth and suitable playback levels. Regardless, if anyone knows the answers to these questions, please let me know.

Well, I have made some progress.  After doing some internet research, I went to the RealTek driver download site (http://www.realtek.com.tw/downloads/downloadsCheck.aspx?langid=1&pfid=24&level=4&conn=3&downtypeid=3) and downloaded the ATI HDMI device driver (ver R2.70) and installed it.  The ASIO Control Panel now shows the ATI HDMI Audio in the device list.  To use it, click on the device in the list, and a "play" icon will appear to the left of the device.

 

 

Unfortunately, this device is still two-channel output. 

 

Next step is to make sure the HDMI connection on the AVR front panel is configured.  In AVR Input Assign menu, make sure the correct input source (V.AUX on the 4311, AUX1 on the 4520) is configured for the front panel HDMI connection (HDMI7 on the 4311, "Front" on the 4520).

 

After hooking up the HDMI cable (like Keith, mine is not quite long enough...) and opening the Output drop-down on the REW Preferences screen, I see and can select either output channel 1 or 2.

 

 

Now, to test the connection, I open the "Generator" icon on the REW home page and can choose from several types of test signals.

 

 

Unfortunately, the audio is output to only one channel, either left or right, depending on the output choice.  If I can't choose to output left+right, I don't know how this will be as useful as my old outboard soundcard configuration.  I remain open-minded, because I don't think I have fully solved all the issues yet.

 

First of all, I understand your frustration.  When I first started using REW, my frustration was through the roof.  Hopefully you will get some advice here that will help.

 

Regarding Jason's (Jevansoh's) enthusiasm, I think he is simply excited to share some useful REW knowledge with us.  I do not think he over-sold the ease of use.  It has always been difficult for experts to find the most effective way of communicating their expertise.  If the discussion is too high-level, there is a risk of frustrating the beginners.  If the discussion is too low-level, the knowledgeable people become bored.  Finding the middle ground is the challenge.

 

Let's not put the burden of the success of this thread on Jason--it's our thread, so let's collectively help each other out.

Jerry,
I installed the latest beta (REW 5.01, beta 12) and ASIO4ALL (v2.11, beta 1) without any issues. I'm finding multiple channels (6, but not 8) when I do a drilldown on my Dell XPS 15 (Intel CPU, Windows 7, 64-bit). Here's my experience:

When I go to the REW -> Preferences -> Soundcard, I selected ASIO under Drivers, and ASIO4ALL v2 as the ASIO Device.

Then, if I go to ASIO Control Panel, I see two WDM Devices: NVIDIA High Definition Audio, and Realtek High Definition Audio.

If I click on NVIDIA, and hover over it, I only see 2 x 44.1-48 kHz, 24-bits, Idle. Not very interesting.
On the other hand, my Realtek High Definition Audio driver is active in my setup, which I confirmed in my Windows Control Panel settings that have Realtek HD Audio Speakers active under Sound . If I hover over the driver in the ASIO Control Panel, I see a "Location: Internal High Definition Audio Bus" and "Status: Active". Nothing about 8 channels, though.

However, if I click on the wrench sign that shows "Advanced Options" when I hover, and then click on the plus sign that shows up under Realtek, I see Realtek HD Audio Output listed as my first dropdown.

If I click on that option, I see:
6 x 44.1-192 kHz, 32-bits
Status: Active - Polling (push)

I then hooked my Dell's HDMI output to the front HDMI input (HDMI-7, corresponding to V-AUX) on my Denon 4311, and I see MULTI CH IN + Dolby PLII on that source.

I don't have the USB mike so I can't do any testing.

On the Preference->Sound Card page, once I"ve selected ASIO4ALL under ASIO, I see six Output and six Time Reference Output channels. I wonder if my Realtek driver only supports 5.1, though.

No way to tell yet, but I hope (assume?) that the six channels correspond to the first six that Jason indicated are the system channels, as shown in Post #10. I don't have surround backs, heights, or wides, so I'm not missing any speakers.

So at least on my system, this "works".
Edited by sdrucker - 1/7/13 at 10:55pm