Originally Posted by jevansoh
Originally Posted by AustinJerry
Originally Posted by jkasanic
+1 and to this end, is it outside the scope of this thread to start debating the pros and cons of the various models to try and systematically develop an approach one might take to achieve a nice compromise between movies and music (understanding that we're venturing into preference territory)? More specifically, how the use of tools like REW and various room treatment options can be used to achieve this (e.g. decay times, reflections etc.)? I realize the purists among us will want to adhere to the strictest of guidelines wrt each model but I'm gathering that if one model fit everyone's goal precisely then we wouldn't be debating things like speech intelligibility of movies vs. music. It seems Stuart, Jerry and myself are at least a couple members of this thread that are looking for a means to achieve a good compromise that doesn't necessarily
fall within the parameters of various other room models (e.g. LEDE, RFZ, ambiechoic, AE, NE etc.) and at least in my case, the abundance of information presented has me confused on next steps for my HT particularly wrt adding room treatments.
I don't think this would be out of bounds at all. However, I also think that as a starting point, we should establish and agree upon some basic standards. I have read Nyal's "Acoustics Measurement Standards", and while I think this is a wonderful and useful document, I think some of the standards are unrealistic for those of us who have a mixed-use listening room. For example, I am currently working on reducing early reflections. All of my reflections are -15dB or better in the 20ms time frame (except for that damn ceiling fan), and all are -20dB or better after 20ms. However, I think I have heard that all reflections should be -20dB, regardless of the time frame. An attainable standard for the purposes of this thread would be useful.
I believe we have already agreed upon a modal decay standard--all resonances below the 40dB noise floor by 450ms in the 40Hz-300Hz range. This is somewhat less aggressive than Nyal's standard.
So, I'm not sure I will ever adopt a "model" per se, but I am very interested in understanding the various theories. I am especially interested in some topics we have not explored in detail, e.g. diffusion (when and where to use it), and how to re-direct reflections so they add spaciousness to the listening room, i.e. more good
reflections, less bad
reflections (and a clear understanding of what this means).
So much to learn, and so much fun on the journey!
I agree that we need to set some standards and I realize not everyone is going to strictly adhere to a specific acoustic model. I do think one should choose a model and set that as the goal, then try to get as close as possible though.
I have ideas in mind, many of which are close to Nyal's BTW (but there are some key differences which push more towards LEDE/RFZ standards) but I have a big problem right now.
In the community as a whole, most all the experts agree with the long standing research on topics such as early reflections vs late reflections good/bad/what the targets should be but we have ONE poster who is coming in here, derailing us by telling folks they need to pay attention to an RT60 measurement which has no basis in reality for statistically small acoustical spaces, then also telling people to look at only a very specific range between 500hz and 1khz, not setting proper guidelines, getting ahead of the pack, and introducing all kinds of text/references that are irrelevant to the topic and none of his own information or proof of his concepts (peer reviewed and accepted info, for instance) which almost all are in absolute conflict with the proven standards which I aim to teach here.
This is disheartening to me because I personally don't feel like arguing with him, he already stated early on he would leave the thread, but we see that's not true, has personally questioned my credentials and attacked me in another thread, and if he continues I see this thread easily and quickly turning into all the other threads he's been involved in.
I don't want to see this thread go downhill and then fizzle out.
I hope people are learning who to listen to. Localhost, Markus, Roger, Nyal, Jeff Hedback, and a guy who has not graced us with his unlimited knowledge on these subjects by the name of Mark, who goes by "Dragonfyr" on AVS. These folks know what they are talking about (there are several others who I don't mention by name who are active in this thread and many others, and you know who you are talking about....THANK YOU ALL for your participation)
But this one guy is throwing us off, getting us to go down paths that are WAY ahead of where we stand now and aren't even relevant at all.
So.... At first, I suggested everyone pick a room model, list what they were interested in, then i planned to tally up the results and start teaching the most popular model first.
That hasn't happened and it seems as though a lot of folks have multi-purpose rooms and just want to get "close" in this thread.
That's fine. We simply need to decide what we need to focus on and what the majority would like to learn more about first.
I think we need to concentrate on and master one thing at a time.
Where do we begin?
Would you all like to talk more about the ETC, how to use it (and how/why it will give you accurate information that the TOPT feature on the RT60 tab in REW tries and only sometimes comes close to) and what those targets should be, plus of course how to get there?
Or should we concentrate on bass trapping, not overdoing broadband acoustics so we don't overdampen our rooms, etc?
Should we talk more about other methods besides just throwing up insulation to tame reflections, so we can preserve the finite amount of energy in our rooms and properly redirect it then reintroduce it laterally in an exponentially decaying form?
Should we talk about all the different types of room treatments and what they're used for first? Diffusers, 1D, 2D, Poly, QRD, PRD, Helmholtz, BAD panels, Membranes, etc?
Should we just look at one or two specific cases at a time, from helpful and popular posters, such as Jerry and Keith, who each want to accomplish a different model and go at their pace, filling in the information they need to know to accomplish their goals along the way?
This is YOUR thread, not mine. I'm just here to help and try to keep things straight.
What do you all want from me and expect from me? Tell me what you want to know and I'll try to work down the list from most popular to least popular.
BTW, I'm not saying that I know everything and I'm right and everyone else is wrong, but what I AM saying is since this isn't an advanced thread like you'd find over on Gearslutz and we don't have a lot of folks in the industry participating, we need to have a plan, go slow, and teach the methods that are TRIED AND TRUE - Not things from new papers released in the last few years - but methods that have been around for DECADES with proven results.
This isn't the forum/thread to try new methods and develop new room models.
This is a thread dedicated to new users of REW who wish to broaden their horizons and are just starting out. We need to give you the right information the first time so you don't find later that half the things you were told are WRONG or at least contested by most people in the industry.
I need some feedback and a vote. I'll take this wherever everyone wants to go and I'm willing to go wherever you all tell me.