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post #6751 of 9618

Wow, trying to keep up today has thoroughly worn me out.

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #6752 of 9618
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post
 

I suppose if you use PayPal then it could take your money and require a refund but I think a credit card order would go through and be canceled before ever charging your card (just a pending transaction) BICBW (my favorite Keith acronym as of late)!

 

It's still a really, really crap solution. I expect this sort of thing from European websites. I hold US businesses to a much higher standard (based on years of favourable experiences buying from them). If I buy from the US Amazon site (which I do very frequently since prices are often substantially better, even allowing for shipping and taxes) it tells me at checkout if the item I picked isn't available in my country (no rhyme nor reason to it I can figure - usually everything I seem to ever want is available but occasionally not). It certainly doesn’t let me go right through the ordering process and takes my money and then refunds it!

 

Glad you like the TLA :)

 

Incidentally, to bring this back on topic, I know of nowhere in Europe which sells the calibrated UMM-6 mic, so what non-US guys will do from hereon in I have NFI. (Polite version of that is 'Not the Faintest Idea). ;)


Edited by kbarnes701 - 11/13/13 at 3:37am
post #6753 of 9618
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post

EDIT:  Maybe I'm the only one seeing his graphs as small since I'm not on a Mac but when I use my iPad they're also small.  FWIW, I've only spent this much time on it because he has been posting a lot of graphs and also remarking about the lack of comments.  For me, even if the graph is plotted per thread standards, it's cumbersome to have to click the pic and arrow through the various pics in a post.

I do see them in small too but I would simply click on them if I were interested in what they're showing wink.gif
I agree that posting them in 500px width is more convenient for others if the information is readily visible in that size. Actually I try to make my graphs work in 500px width because I know people simply don't click on anything I post smile.gif
post #6754 of 9618
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
 

Wow, trying to keep up today has thoroughly worn me out.

 

haha - I know that feeling.... :)  It makes installing panels almost relaxing :)

post #6755 of 9618
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Wow, trying to keep up today has thoroughly worn me out.

Only today?

smile.gif
post #6756 of 9618
@jkasanic
They were showing as small previews here also.



Also, now you guys no what it's like for us guys in the middle time zone (Australia). I sometimes wake up to 3 or more pages of new posts tongue.gif
post #6757 of 9618
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

haha - I know that feeling.... smile.gif  It makes installing panels almost relaxing smile.gif

Nothing like the refreshing smell of fiberglass biggrin.gif
post #6758 of 9618

Geez, I get lamb basted for trying to help a guy get a little more feedback from his posts and now you guys are talking about fiberglass...:rolleyes:

 

:D

 

Can't you tell I'm on a mission to 1k posts by Christmas (or at least before Keith makes it to 20k)!

post #6759 of 9618
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
 
I agree that posting them in 500px width is more convenient for others if the information is readily visible in that size. Actually I try to make my graphs work in 500px width because I know people simply don't click on anything I post smile.gif

 

No worries Markus...it's not your graphs nobody clicks on, just your links! :p

post #6760 of 9618
I digress
Edited by jlpowell84 - 11/12/13 at 1:48pm
post #6761 of 9618
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post

No worries Markus...it's not your graphs nobody clicks on, just your links! tongue.gif

I know, I know...
post #6762 of 9618
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
 
Deleted

Deleted OP's post since he edited it himself however, I think this still applies:

 

Dude...chillax!  I don't think anybody is purposefully ignoring you.  Keep in mind that what you are doing is not considered "normal" wrt the thread topic.  We're all trying to improve SQ but most of us in THIS thread are trying to figure out how to use less EQ!  I'm not saying what you're doing doesn't belong here but when you cross post in 3 different threads on the same site, you can expect a few people might decide not to respond.  It's just poor forum etiquette to keep posting the same stuff in different threads unless you aren't getting an answer (and then it's normal to inform everyone that you are cross-posting).  In this case, I think you're enthusiasm has gotten the better of you since you did get two responses from different members (myself and audionut11) and we both came to the same conclusion that your waterfalls were hard to read.  Heck, even Mark Seaton said as much in the SubM thread...so try to calm down and take a little more time to post your results.  Don't take this the wrong way but based on your posts it's pretty clear you can be impulsive (e.g. buying your gubbins before you even really knew what kind of treatments you wanted to make).  So blasting others in this thread for not immediately responding like you've discovered the Holy Grail is a little OTTIYAM (that's over the top if you ask me).

post #6763 of 9618
Herb stopped shipping the UMM-6 outside the US because too many were breaking during shipping. See this post. Bear in mind that Cross Spectrum is a very small acoustics consultancy, as part of which Herb offers a mic calibration service. eCommerce web site design is not likely to be his speciality or priority, I suspect the setup he uses doesn't allow per-product selection of allowed destinations.
post #6764 of 9618
I accept that I was wrong. Yes I certainly can be impulsive. I guess my inability to interpret a waterfall is the main reasoning. I will repost with identical parameters. 45-110, 15-300
post #6765 of 9618
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

If I buy from the US Amazon site (which I do very frequently since prices are often substantially better, even allowing for shipping and taxes) it tells me at checkout if the item I picked isn't available in my country (no rhyme nor reason to it I can figure - usually everything I seem to ever want is available but occasionally not).

Incidentally, to bring this back on topic, I know of nowhere in Europe which sells the calibrated UMM-6 mic, so what non-US guys will do from hereon in I have NFI. (Polite version of that is 'Not the Faintest Idea). wink.gif
Some manufacturers limit international sales of certain items to prevent cannibalizing the local sales market from overseas sales where prices may be lower. I know of several companies that do that. If you sell/ship their product overseas, your dealer status gets revoked. Heck, I know of some audio equipment companies in the US that mandate no Out-Of-State or online sales to prevent online price competition. You have to buy from a local supplier/dealer.


Max
post #6766 of 9618
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnPM View Post

Herb stopped shipping the UMM-6 outside the US because too many were breaking during shipping. See this post. Bear in mind that Cross Spectrum is a very small acoustics consultancy, as part of which Herb offers a mic calibration service. eCommerce web site design is not likely to be his speciality or priority, I suspect the setup he uses doesn't allow per-product selection of allowed destinations.
Thanks for that post John.
Quote:
FYI as of right now, I am no longer selling UMM-6 mics to overseas customers (they will still be available to US customers). I had hoped with the most recent batch Dayton had overcome the problem with the barrel breaking off, but one just snapped off in my hand as I was trying to calibrate it. Every time I have to send a replacement overseas I take a hit with the mic plus the shipping and I'm not willing to do that anymore. The hit isn't as bad for domestics mics so I'll still keep selling them to US addresses.

I'm sorry for the inconvenience.

What the heck are Dayton making these mic barrels out of? Recycled ice cream cone wafers? I'd heard of some owners snapping the barrels from dropping the mic while running calibrations but snapping in your hand? I guess that's one of the things I like about the EMM-6; its metal construction.


Max
post #6767 of 9618
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

If I buy from the US Amazon site (which I do very frequently since prices are often substantially better, even allowing for shipping and taxes) it tells me at checkout if the item I picked isn't available in my country (no rhyme nor reason to it I can figure - usually everything I seem to ever want is available but occasionally not).

Incidentally, to bring this back on topic, I know of nowhere in Europe which sells the calibrated UMM-6 mic, so what non-US guys will do from hereon in I have NFI. (Polite version of that is 'Not the Faintest Idea). wink.gif
Some manufacturers limit international sales of certain items to prevent cannibalizing the local sales market from overseas sales where prices may be lower. I know of several companies that do that. If you sell/ship their product overseas, your dealer status gets revoked. Heck, I know of some audio equipment companies in the US that mandate no Out-Of-State or online sales to prevent online price competition. You have to buy from a local supplier/dealer.

If you participate in international conferences you have the opportunity to set up whatever private arrangements you wish to establish. When no laws are broken, and only vendor marketing preferences are at stake, it is possible to find private individuals may be receptive to arrangements that are favorable to them, that also end up placing the equipment you wish into your hands. I know of people who have bought say 4 microphones locally and quite legally sent 3 of them to somewhere else, if you catch my drift. ;-)
post #6768 of 9618
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnPM View Post

Herb stopped shipping the UMM-6 outside the US because too many were breaking during shipping. See this post. Bear in mind that Cross Spectrum is a very small acoustics consultancy, as part of which Herb offers a mic calibration service. eCommerce web site design is not likely to be his speciality or priority, I suspect the setup he uses doesn't allow per-product selection of allowed destinations.

Thanks for sharing that post, John. Strangely enough, the barrel of my UMM-6 broke as well, so I understand that they are somewhat fragile. I ordered a UMIK-1 as a replacement, and it seems to be a little more robust. The UMM-6 survives as well with a bit of gaffer's tape.

@Keith,

Perhaps you should voice your concern directly to Herb. In my dealings with him, he has been nothing but helpful and professional, and I think we owe him an opportunity to explain why the web site is set up the way it is.
post #6769 of 9618
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

If you participate in international conferences you have the opportunity to set up whatever private arrangements you wish to establish. When no laws are broken, and only vendor marketing preferences are at stake, it is possible to find private individuals may be receptive to arrangements that are favorable to them, that also end up placing the equipment you wish into your hands. I know of people who have bought say 4 microphones locally and quite legally sent 3 of them to somewhere else, if you catch my drift. ;-)
LOL, very true. I don't suppose it changes the fragility of the UMM-6 mics though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnPM View Post

Herb stopped shipping the UMM-6 outside the US because too many were breaking during shipping. See this post. Bear in mind that Cross Spectrum is a very small acoustics consultancy, as part of which Herb offers a mic calibration service. eCommerce web site design is not likely to be his speciality or priority, I suspect the setup he uses doesn't allow per-product selection of allowed destinations.

Thanks for sharing that post, John. Strangely enough, the barrel of my UMM-6 broke as well, so I understand that they are somewhat fragile. I ordered a UMIK-1 as a replacement, and it seems to be a little more robust. The UMM-6 survives as well with a bit of gaffer's tape.

@Keith,

Perhaps you should voice your concern directly to Herb. In my dealings with him, he has been nothing but helpful and professional, and I think we owe him an opportunity to explain why the web site is set up the way it is.
Well, I'd say John's post probably sums it up quite well. Herb is probably not familiar enough with website design to figure out how to specify 'per-product' specifics. IMO, he provides a great service at incredible prices (the prices of his individually calibrated mics are almost the same as the retail prices for the mics). I'm personally more than willing to put up with a more barebones website due to that. I'd already assumed the point John mentioned simply from how simple the website is and the incredible deals on individually calibrated mics. It just smacks of an enthusiast who's capable in a specific field providing a service with a simple, minimalistic website that's adequate as a customer interface as it isn't his speciality.

Websites like Amazon OTOH have so many employees, they have website programmers specifically deployed for User Interfaces and to handle issues promptly when they're brought up by customers and with the volume of sales they do, I would expect no less. I tend to cut the small independent vendors a lot more slack though, especially when they're providing me options at pricepoints the more commercial enterprises can't match.


Max
post #6770 of 9618
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

The animation does a great job of illustrating the iceberg analogy. The small differences near the bottom of the graph (aside from just exposing more of the bottom of the iceberg appear to simply be the slight differences that occur between measurements, even with identical mic placements.

...or it's noise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Now you mentioned 2 things:
A) Important = where the ringing starts relative to the first slice and how fast it decays
B) Not important, the bottom of the graph

For A) The ringing in the ~50-55Hz region begin fairly high up and continues all the way down and I assume that means that it's something that should be looked into. In comparison, the ~30Hz region starts extending out pretty low down on the graph. Does that mean it's nothing to be concerned about? Likewise with the ~100Hz region. The mountain begins to stick out pretty low (~25db) down from the top of the graph (the first slice?). Granted, in the 100Hz region the time to decay in the noise floor is already pretty short, but if, for example it still extended out to 450ms at the bottom of the graph, would it still be insignificant?


Max

Those "shoulders" sticking out after and below the first slice (t=0) are either remaining ringing in an already damped room or noise. That high up it's probably NOT noise.

Now the questions is, how much low frequency ringing is tolerable? In my opinion it should be as low as possible. Very hard to do with passive absorption.
Listen to successive short sine bursts to get an idea how much the room changes the sound coming from the speaker. You can download such signals from here: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21936387/audio/test_signals/LF_TEST.zip
First listen to them with headphones on to get an idea how they should sound then listen over your speakers.
Thanks Markus.


Max
post #6771 of 9618
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post

Keep in mind that what you are doing is not considered "normal" wrt the thread topic.  We're all trying to improve SQ but most of us in THIS thread are trying to figure out how to use less EQ! 

Not all of us..but considering that our recent spectrogram experience has shown that room EQ may not be universally 'good' unless your main focus is frequency response, and that many of us are learning that getting flat FR is less important than the journey (peaks/dips) of how you got there when you look at a bigger picture, you have a point.

Speaking of which, until I can get some right side absorption (as per PM from Sanjay) treatments up to make my own room more symmetrical WRT bass decay and pre-EQ, I'm going to be pulling back from this thread except for technical questions about charts or more meta stuff. Time to do a bunch of re-inventing the wheel and Trinnoving...this is definitely a 'walk before you run' life in the rabbit hole, except that the track's circular LOL...smile.gif I may even gain match...eek.gif

I do think that at some point, J should see if the moderators can change the thread title to reference treatment how-to with REW, though.

FWIW I actually do find revisitng tandem Audyssey/MiniDSP use that shows joint FR/bass decay improvements interesting if they're not graph artifacts, but I think that's an Audyssey topic in context.

Play nice guys!
Edited by sdrucker - 11/12/13 at 5:44pm
post #6772 of 9618
Quote:
Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post

Perhaps we ought to adopt an acronym:

Graph Illegible for Detailed Analysis

GIDA
wink.gif


Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Wow, trying to keep up today has thoroughly worn me out.

Personally, I prefer GIADA given a choice....Jerry, sometimes just have to take a break and relax...........

post #6773 of 9618
Simplified REW setup and use (USB and HDMI connection) including measurement techniques and how to interpret graphs. Maybe a thread could be started that was something like "Using REW, Room Treatments (bought or built), and Electronic EQ." That is how I have approached this thread considering each is so closely knitted together. The thread title says nothing of room treatments so shall we not discuss them? Although that seems like talking about performance cars but ignoring the suspension. Or discuss graph changes due to electronic EQ is not permitted? Heck Jason Evans said himself he didn't like the thread title. Obviously I have ruffled some feathers being loose in trying to discuss anything related to using REW and making improvements. So how can I move forward from here? Obviously post identical graph values when making comparisons. But how do I present information that is either room treatments or electronic EQ in a "etiquette" way? They can't be ignored.
Edited by jlpowell84 - 11/12/13 at 6:13pm
post #6774 of 9618
smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

Not all of us..but considering that our recent spectrogram experience has shown that room EQ may not be universally 'good' unless your main focus is frequency response, and that many of us are learning that getting flat FR is less important than the journey (peaks/dips) of how you got there when you look at a bigger picture, you have a point.

Well, like you mentioned previously, this may not have been "our" goal from the outset but it's certainly what J (as the OP) has been espousing since day one and there's some pretty strong evidence to support some of the unwanted side effects of using EQ. HST, this rabbit hole appears to be a game of trade offs and managing the lesser of multiple evils so discussion of other EQ systems, bass trap designs, room treatments etc seems perfectly ok to me (but I've always advocated pushing the limits of OT in this thread since there isn't one size that fits all).
Quote:
Speaking of which, until I can get some right side absorption (as per PM from Sanjay) treatments up to make my own room more symmetrical WRT bass decay and pre-EQ, I'm going to be pulling back from this thread except for technical questions about charts or more meta stuff. Time to do a bunch of re-inventing the wheel and Trinnoving...this is definitely a 'walk before you run' life in the rabbit hole, except that the track's circular LOL...smile.gifI may even gain match...eek.gif

Now you're just antagonizing.... wink.gif
post #6775 of 9618
Well. Jason's been intellectually consistent from Day (or should I say post) 1, even if it's taken almost a year for many of us to catch to him. Some faster than others. I'm personally falling behind and trying to catch up with the rest of you lately...wink.gif. Which is par for the rabbit hole...

Consider this crazy kid, who (as I teased him in a PM) once said last summer:
"That's the bit I don't get. I am sure that most enthusiasts are aware of the need to optimism sub location and the room itself - if possible - before using an electronic EQ like Audyssey. Finding the best place in the room for the sub is fairly easy if you have only one sub and not all that difficult if you have two subs and some sort of measuring gear. There's no need to understand the theory behind it to get a good result any more than I need to know the theory behind cellular communication technology to make a phone call. And wrt to traps and treatments, there are plenty of sites that offer all sorts of advice and help. I just can't see what benefits I would gain by doing all this measuring and graphing over and above what I have already done. I have extremely limited options in my room for sub placement and treatments anyway - as do many others - so knowing that a series of measurements shows that my subs should be elsewhere frustrates rather than illuminates."

That was a few tuned membrane traps ago...biggrin.gif

Also, note that our common REQ experience is overwhelmingly Audyssey-based. I have my Trinnov frankenprocessor to get upstream LOL, but I wish we had one person with Dirac RCS to run some REW plots on an HTPC with it or a Datasat, to see if there's any comparative merit to its REQ that allegedly operates in both frequency and impulse response. Or Room Perfect, for that matter. We need some rich guys LOL...
Edited by sdrucker - 11/12/13 at 7:38pm
post #6776 of 9618
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Simplified REW setup and use (USB and HDMI connection) including measurement techniques and how to interpret graphs. Maybe a thread could be started that was something like "Using REW, Room Treatments (bought or built), and Electronic EQ." That is how I have approached this thread considering each is so closely knitted together. The thread title says nothing of room treatments so shall we not discuss them? Although that seems like talking about performance cars but ignoring the suspension. Or discuss graph changes due to electronic EQ is not permitted? Heck Jason Evans said himself he didn't like the thread title. Obviously I have ruffled some feathers being loose in trying to discuss anything related to using REW and making improvements. So how can I move forward from here? Obviously post identical graph values when making comparisons. But how do I present information that is either room treatments or electronic EQ in a "etiquette" way? They can't be ignored.

It's ironic that you seem to be directing this at me when I was one of the few people that commented on your graphs in the first place?! rolleyes.gif The etiquette I referred to earlier is wrt cross-posting. Cross posting is generally frowned upon when seeking advice or feedback. As a general rule, pick the thread that most applies to the topic at hand and if you don't get a response then reference the first post in your subsequent post acknowledging that you're cross posting due to lack of response. You have acknowledged cross posting in the past (e.g. in the SubM thread) so I know it's not a foreign practice to you.

The only point I was trying to make is that your particular situation (using multiple EQ systems before applying any treatments) is somewhat putting the cart before the horse relative to the direction the OP intended for the thread (at least as I understand it). HST, his presence here is minimal to say the least and I personally defer to Jerry as the OP for his tireless effort and many contributions in J's absence. That doesn't mean what you posted is not of interest (in fact I'm personally very interested which is why I responded in the first place and why I would like to see your graphs presented in a more meaningful manner). I was simply stating that perhaps no one is commenting on your post not for the simple fact that your graphs are difficult to compare (as you contended in a prior post) but rather by the fact that not many thread participants are personally affected by what you posted. Again, not a criticism of what you posted or even your approach. Just pointing out that it's unique and as such probably doesn't impact as many participants as say adding a corner bass trap and posting before and after decay plots looking for feedback.

I hope you can see the difference and it makes sense to you as my intent was not to further incite you. IMHO, your frustration over a lack of responses compounded by others pointing out your graphs didn't conform to thread standards making comparisons difficult seems to have clouded your judgment wrt the motivations of other thread participants. Of course, the obvious solution is just to repost the info using the limits in the guide and see if more people chime in! I know I will.... biggrin.gif
post #6777 of 9618
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

Also, note that our common REQ experience is overwhelmingly Audyssey-based. I have my Trinnov frankenprocessor to get upstream LOL, but I wish we had one person with Dirac RCS to run some REW plots on an HTPC with it or a Datasat, to see if there's any comparative merit to its REQ that allegedly operates in both frequency and impulse response. Or Room Perfect, for that matter. We need some rich guys LOL...

Haha, I thought that was you! I know you're just procrastinating starting the automated EQ death match thread because you're worried about the great responsibility that comes with being an OP! Just remember, you don't have to outrun the bear... tongue.gif
post #6778 of 9618
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post

Haha, I thought that was you! I know you're just procrastinating starting the automated EQ death match thread because you're worried about the great responsibility that comes with being an OP! Just remember, you don't have to outrun the bear... tongue.gif

A $600 Sherwood r-972 sitting in a box to use with an Oppo 103 that has HDMI inputs does NOT make me rich...biggrin.gif. No TEQ-8 here (although I'd happily accept donations and a week of Curt Hoyt's time haha), just some extra creativity...

Although you have a point. I just keep thinking of new things I should do with the room and Audyssey...and when you know you have heavyweights that will read you, a thought experiment gets more serious. What's the quote from S.M Stirling? Something like 'There go my people. I must run ahead of them, for I am their leader'. Or something like that...cool.gif
Edited by sdrucker - 11/12/13 at 8:00pm
post #6779 of 9618
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

I have my Trinnov frankenprocessor...
Heh. Fire that sucker up, already!!!
Quote:
...I wish we had one person with Dirac RCS to run some REW plots on an HTPC with it or a Datasat, to see if there's any comparative merit to its REQ that allegedly operates in both frequency and impulse response. Or Room Perfect, for that matter.
Well, I have a UMIK o/o to maybe, possibly convert to REW, so anything is possible.wink.gif
post #6780 of 9618
Quote:
Originally Posted by RUR View Post


Well, I have a UMIK o/o to maybe, possibly convert to REW, so anything is possible.wink.gif

 

We know you can do it!

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