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post #7261 of 9496
Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post

The PEQ in my prepro I have only goes down to 80Hz and only works on PCM input. So, it wouldn't work with Dolby or DTS.

I was toying with the idea of getting a minidsp but I don't like that it only samples at 48KHz. They have a newer one that does 96KHz (now we're talking) but not all the plugins support that yet. (boo hiss).
Dolby Digital and DTS decode to PCM, so equalization should work on those formats.

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #7262 of 9496
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Goff View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post

The PEQ in my prepro I have only goes down to 80Hz and only works on PCM input. So, it wouldn't work with Dolby or DTS.

I was toying with the idea of getting a minidsp but I don't like that it only samples at 48KHz. They have a newer one that does 96KHz (now we're talking) but not all the plugins support that yet. (boo hiss).
Dolby Digital and DTS decode to PCM, so equalization should work on those formats.

What pre/pro is it?

Depending on the design, it might require a PCM input signal in order to be able to apply its DSP algorithms. Older HDMI-capapble devices have limited processing power and are able either to decode HD audio or to apply various processing algorithms (like Audyssey), but not both at the same time. The usual work-around is to do the HD decoding in the player device so that the receiver or pre/pro sees a PCM input signal.
post #7263 of 9496
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

What pre/pro is it?

Depending on the design, it might require a PCM input signal in order to be able to apply its DSP algorithms. Older HDMI-capapble devices have limited processing power and are able either to decode HD audio or to apply various processing algorithms (like Audyssey), but not both at the same time. The usual work-around is to do the HD decoding in the player device so that the receiver or pre/pro sees a PCM input signal.
Good point!
post #7264 of 9496
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Goff View Post

Dolby Digital and DTS decode to PCM, so equalization should work on those formats.

[Edit] Saw that my response was already provided[/EDIT]

In case you're curious, it's a Cinema 11 (not 11a or anything like that). No HDMI audio. I'm hoping to score an 11v just to have a matched set. Let me know if you spot one wink.gif
Edited by artur9 - 12/5/13 at 6:23pm
post #7265 of 9496
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audionut11 View Post

I would try 450-600mm of pink fluffy behind the LP and at the other end of the red line marked above.

No tube trap fans?
post #7266 of 9496
Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post


No tube trap fans?

No, just a Big Ass Fan (post #5820, if you missed it).

:D

post #7267 of 9496
Still lovin' that Big Ass Fan!
post #7268 of 9496
Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post

No tube trap fans?

Performance information for traps is sparse at best. I've never used them personally, and from what I can gather, it requires quite a few of them to have any effect.
post #7269 of 9496
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audionut11 View Post

Performance information for traps is sparse at best. I've never used them personally, and from what I can gather, it requires quite a few of them to have any effect.

They are also pricey unless you DIY.

I just have that 30Hz with high Q and I don't fancy 2 ft of pink stuff all over the place.
post #7270 of 9496
Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post


They are also pricey unless you DIY.

I just have that 30Hz with high Q and I don't fancy 2 ft of pink stuff all over the place.

 

Well, have you devised a test to see if the 30Hz issue is something that you can actually hear?  You could spend a lot of time and money trying to resolve it, and end up not hearing any difference.

post #7271 of 9496
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Well, have you devised a test to see if the 30Hz issue is something that you can actually hear?  You could spend a lot of time and money trying to resolve it, and end up not hearing any difference.

If I set REW to play a tone between 25 and 35 Hz I can definitely hear the uneveness of that signal throughout the room.

Aside from special effects in movies, I don't believe anything I regularly listen to has any content in that area.
post #7272 of 9496
Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post

If I set REW to play a tone between 25 and 35 Hz I can definitely hear the uneveness of that signal throughout the room.

Aside from special effects in movies, I don't believe anything I regularly listen to has any content in that area.

Do you listen to piano? (27.5hz)
Bass guitar (5 or 6 string) ? (31.5hz)
Pipe Organ ? (16hz)
post #7273 of 9496
Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post

If I set REW to play a tone between 25 and 35 Hz I can definitely hear the uneveness of that signal throughout the room.

Aside from special effects in movies, I don't believe anything I regularly listen to has any content in that area.

And except for fans of church organ, probably neither does much of anyone else. YMMV but worrying about < 40 Hz ringing may just be graphitis nervosa in practical terms. Somebody that's a film pro might feel differently, though....

Having said that, when I get my MiniDSP 10x10 HD, if it doesn't distract me to madness, I might test out some high pass filter db/octave settings < 40 Hz to see if I can tailor my own peak at 25 or so Hz down a bit without losing everything < 25 Hz altogether for the sub channels that are the biggest offenders.

Speaking of which, YMMV, but in light of our thinking about the limitation of the Target Curve Editor with Audyssey Pro, the 10x10 isn't overkill if one might eventually move to separates and wants more tailoring of more than subs post-Audyssey. Or in my case, a cheap version of Trinnov with the R-972, it adds some functionality that's in the Pro kits as post-calibration tweak. Not quite real Trinnov with all the tweakability of its parameters....

Current ETA is the Chrismas break to get out the Sherwood as a 40ish lb. REQ processor.....
post #7274 of 9496
Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post

If I set REW to play a tone between 25 and 35 Hz I can definitely hear the uneveness of that signal throughout the room.

Aside from special effects in movies, I don't believe anything I regularly listen to has any content in that area.

If you play any REW tone at a room mode frequency and move about the room, you are going to move in an out of mode peaks and dips, and the changes will be audible. The better question is, when you are sitting in your MLP, do you ever notice the 30Hz resonance as an unpleasant sound? If not, then you could easily be chasing something that doesn't make much difference. I know in my case, I don't have many sources of sound that dig down to 30Hz that I would notice if there were an unwanted resonance. Regardless of the examples that Jim mentioned, I don't hear 30Hz in my music very often.
post #7275 of 9496
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

If you play any REW tone at a room mode frequency and move about the room, you are going to move in an out of mode peaks and dips, and the changes will be audible. The better question is, when you are sitting in your MLP, do you ever notice the 30Hz resonance as an unpleasant sound? If not, then you could easily be chasing something that doesn't make much difference. I know in my case, I don't have many sources of sound that dig down to 30Hz that I would notice if there were an unwanted resonance. Regardless of the examples that Jim mentioned, I don't hear 30Hz in my music very often.

You could also put the 16 Hz pipe organ, on one of the BAS test tracks that came with our HSUs on a loop LOL....

From the HSU website:
1. Saint-Saëns: Organ Symphony, excerpt from second movement (Poco Adagio)

WARNING: When playing this track for the first time, lower the volume, as your woofers may be at risk. The bottom octave of this recording may damage vented or planar loudspeakers. (The opening string passage should be quite soft.) Boston Civic Symphony conducted by Max Hobart, James David Christie, organist. Two AKG 414 ORTF cardioids, about the third row in Boston’s Jordan Hall, spring 1983. This was one of the last times that the Jordan Hall organ, already showing signs of serious asthma, was heard in a public performance. [Micha Schattner]

This recording has the strongest and cleanest 16Hz of any recording I have come across. It's ideal for showing off the TN1220HO. [Dr. Hsu]
post #7276 of 9496
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

If you play any REW tone at a room mode frequency and move about the room, you are going to move in an out of mode peaks and dips, and the changes will be audible. The better question is, when you are sitting in your MLP, do you ever notice the 30Hz resonance as an unpleasant sound? If not, then you could easily be chasing something that doesn't make much difference. I know in my case, I don't have many sources of sound that dig down to 30Hz that I would notice if there were an unwanted resonance. Regardless of the examples that Jim mentioned, I don't hear 30Hz in my music very often.

I agree uneven bass at different locations is typical.

I agree not a LOT of ones listening experience falls below 40hz.

But more does than you are aware of or admitting. And certainly movie soundtracks have noticeably more in this region (explosions/earthquakes/large machines such as tanks/and myriads of special effects).

But I would admit that the FR content <40hz is one of the last things I would target for improved sound. But I think it does belong on the list.
post #7277 of 9496
Quote:
Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post

Do you listen to piano? (27.5hz)
Bass guitar (5 or 6 string) ? (31.5hz)
Pipe Organ ? (16hz)

Other than Phantom of the Opera no pipe organ for me! Although, I do have a Naxos podcast with some on it.

I don't think the rest of my gear can do justice to bass guitar, completely, or that deep piano note. Maybe after I win the lottery and upgrade from monitors to some Legacy Audio Aeris wink.gif
post #7278 of 9496
Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post

Other than Phantom of the Opera no pipe organ for me! Although, I do have a Naxos podcast with some on it.

I don't think the rest of my gear can do justice to bass guitar, completely, or that deep piano note. Maybe after I win the lottery and upgrade from monitors to some Legacy Audio Aeris wink.gif

Actually piano has 5 notes that come in below 35hz. But I get your point smile.gif
post #7279 of 9496
Handy chart.....
Interactive-Frequency-Chart.jpg
post #7280 of 9496
Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post

I just have that 30Hz with high Q and I don't fancy 2 ft of pink stuff all over the place.

Just the 2 corners should suffice wink.giftongue.gif
The good thing about pink fluffy is that it doesn't target a specific frequency, so you will gain benefits through the entire bass range.

And of course, it's a choice smile.gif
post #7281 of 9496
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

Having said that, when I get my MiniDSP 10x10 HD, if it doesn't distract me to madness.....

Can you tell me more about this miniDSP thing? I noticed them on the site when I ordered the UMIK-1, but didn't get a good idea of what they can be used for in our context. Or is there a more appropriate thread? Thanks.


I am still going through my REW measurements, and I've made a lot of them. I've had no issues at all since I got a working ASIO4ALL installed (the exact one pictured in Jerry's document, not the latest one) on my Win 7/64 laptop. To be honest, I don't really know how to interpret some of them, what I can use them for, and some I do know. In the former category is Impulse Response. I vaguely recall from school (several decades ago lol) that a system can theoretically be completely described by its impulse response. Group Delay is another: I know what it is, but never used it in my amateur audio meanderings. So I have to re-read the REW Help document, more like study it (= work). Ongoing...so no real REW questions yet.

Here's the thing: I am not very willing to put much fancy treatment into this room. In fact, about 10 years ago I removed all the treatments I had. It's not a dedicated room, and frankly it was getting way too "esoteric" and precious for my preference, audiophile overkill. Like having 6' tall speakers and 4' tall sub isn't enough...(prob slight exaggeration there, not sure of actual heights offhand).

So what I want to use the REW results for is to make the most of what I have. To arrange subs/speakers and configure electronics to give the optimal sonic results. Is this along the lines of some others reading this thread, or are you whetting the lions' appetites for me? I think I would be willing to do some corner bass traps again if that'll do anything significant, maybe DIY, don't have a lot of room though, wish I hadn't given them away. Some wall treatments are also very doable. But no more ceiling and wall/ceiling tricorner or fancier stuff. That's what he says now...

^ And that was a long-winded explanation of why something like a miniDSP might have a use for me. Oddly though, based on the readings I have, I'm not that concerned about the bass end right now, only have one "serious" problem area in the ~180Hz region IIRC, but mainly I'm concerned with some >300Hz improvements, even in the >8kHz range. Haven't investigated it at all yet, lots of data to peruse.

Edit: did anyone look at my arrangement in http://www.avsforum.com/t/1449924/simplified-rew-setup-and-use-usb-mic-hdmi-connection-including-measurement-techniques-and-how-to-interpret-graphs/7200#post_24023053 ? That's what I have to deal with.
post #7282 of 9496
Quote:
Originally Posted by cfraser View Post

Can you tell me more about this miniDSP thing?
My prepro doesn't offer any usable EQ capability. Given the price of the minidsp it's definitely worth a look. Here's a review if that helps.
Quote:
Here's the thing: I am not very willing to put much fancy treatment into this room. In fact, about 10 years ago I removed all the treatments I had. It's not a dedicated room, and frankly it was getting way too "esoteric" and precious for my preference, audiophile overkill. Like having 6' tall speakers and 4' tall sub isn't enough...(prob slight exaggeration there, not sure of actual heights offhand).

So what I want to use the REW results for is to make the most of what I have. To arrange subs/speakers and configure electronics to give the optimal sonic results. Is this along the lines of some others reading this thread, or are you whetting the lions' appetites for me?

That's definitely where I'm at. I don't want to spend a few thousand on treatments. That would be something like 2-3 tube traps and the 5-10 2x4 panels I'd need to absorb the back wall as per Toole plus a few more for the ceiling and other reflection points. REW is helping me to figure out which very specific treatments I should be pursuing. Alternatively, if I were to go the DIY it helps me prioritize where I should invest my scarce and meager handyman skills.
Quote:
... And that was a long-winded explanation of why something like a miniDSP might have a use for me.

The minidsp is insanely flexible and apparently can be programmed right from REW. I was looking at it because the crossover/subamp for my passive subs was destroyed in shipping. I bought them as a set used and the manufacturer doesn't make it anymore and doesn't repair. Since I'm already using a few channels from my multichannel amp to drive the passive subs I was thinking I could use the minidsp for some EQ and crossover duties. It's way cheaper than the alternatives (check out the pricing on Bryston 10B!. Bryston eek.gif).
post #7283 of 9496
Quote:

Can you post some mdats from REW? Left and right speakers by their own and each sub by it's own.
post #7284 of 9496
Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post

My prepro doesn't offer any usable EQ capability. Given the price of the minidsp it's definitely worth a look. Here's a review if that helps.
That's definitely where I'm at. I don't want to spend a few thousand on treatments. That would be something like 2-3 tube traps and the 5-10 2x4 panels I'd need to absorb the back wall as per Toole plus a few more for the ceiling and other reflection points. REW is helping me to figure out which very specific treatments I should be pursuing. Alternatively, if I were to go the DIY it helps me prioritize where I should invest my scarce and meager handyman skills.
The minidsp is insanely flexible and apparently can be programmed right from REW. I was looking at it because the crossover/subamp for my passive subs was destroyed in shipping. I bought them as a set used and the manufacturer doesn't make it anymore and doesn't repair. Since I'm already using a few channels from my multichannel amp to drive the passive subs I was thinking I could use the minidsp for some EQ and crossover duties. It's way cheaper than the alternatives (check out the pricing on Bryston 10B!. Bryston eek.gif).

You can download filters to the MiniDSP from REW, but depending on your sophistication of your setup, you'll still want to make some changes directly on the MiniDSP. I agree it can be powerful for the right setup. For example, multiple subs, particularly if you've got more than two and/or don't have a pre/pro with independent sub outputs for setting distance and level, or as a kind of "post-Audyssey" curve editor for a unit like a 10x10 if you're willing to go to separates. I'm getting one on loan to test it out, and I'm using it specifically to matrix one or two sub outputs from a pre-out into four (or five) output channels, tweaking crossovers and high/low shelf filters, possibly creating house curves, etc.

However, I'd take a good look at the MiniDSP thread before buying one. There's many different flavors and plug-ins (software) of MiniDSP, but you have to realize that it's not a consumer product per se like a sound equalizer, or even other DSP devices like an AntiMode that are more "plug and play". It's a circuit board that can come in a box, and you have to have some basic understanding of the voltage sensitivity of your subwoofer amps as well as the voltage sensitivity of your pre/pro before you just start using one - as well as whether you'd be better off getting a balanced or unbalanced version for your particular needs, with the attended XLR or Phoenix cabling issues. And from the comments I've read, it can take some time to "get it right" with the sub gain to avoid clipping issues, particularly for DIY subs and high powered ones like a Seaton. Be prepared to have some patience, as well as to do some measuring. This IMO is more pro audio gear than, say, a Denon or Onkyo receiver, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Maybe jpowell can chime in based his recent experience with his Submersives.
Edited by sdrucker - 12/7/13 at 8:45am
post #7285 of 9496
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audionut11 View Post


Can you post some mdats from REW? Left and right speakers by their own and each sub by it's own.

Let me get back to you on that. I have the front speakers by themselves, but just for my regular positioning. They are Maggies, which means angling them a few degrees differently can significantly change the HF FR at the MLP, since they have quasi-ribbon tweeters a few feet (?) long. And that is my next measuring project: to get measurements for different angles, and choose the preferred. I'm not sure if I want a different HF response than the way it already is, since the current position was chosen gradually some years ago, but REW does show the HF FR at the MLP to be somewhat anemic at a quick glance, but I like the way it sounds. Have to think about it.

I only have REW data for the main sub by itself. Thanks for the reminder though, need to get that for the second one too. I haven't been using the second sub much, but since REW shows everything about the bass is so much better with both subs, I'm back to using two again. You see, the second sub was bought at the cusp of the DVD age, not much LFE out there, and it was chosen for music so doesn't even go to 20Hz (I thought...I think the real issue is I can't hear much at 20Hz lol). I thought using it with SubEQ HT would cripple the lowest freq capability of the big SVS one, least that's what I was told. I don't see much harm, only a fraction of a dB harm below 25Hz*, but the improvement overall greatly outweighs that with much cleaner and smoother sound. So clean I asked the usual question "where's the bass gone?", but thanks to REW I see there's actually way more bass.

Don't want you guys to do all my graphwork or else I won't learn anything. But thanks for the offer, if you were offering... smile.gif

Edit: Oh yeah, thanks for the miniDSP info. It's a bit too soon for me to consider one, since I haven't even analyzed my room issues yet, never mind how to fix them. But since you guys were mentioning it...

* and: actually its worst "harm" is only 0.7dB down at 15Hz = essentially no harm, and the effect only starts below 20Hz not 25Hz
Edited by cfraser - 12/7/13 at 9:03am
post #7286 of 9496
Just got threw updating my room documentation. I am not going to re-post it all here. But if interested:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/studio-building-acoustics/817205-my-listening-room-12.html
post #7287 of 9496
Quote:
Originally Posted by cfraser View Post

I have the front speakers by themselves, but just for my regular positioning.

I use this measurement to determine best crossover point (although this is also dictated by center/surround), and the reflections.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cfraser View Post

I'm not sure if I want a different HF response than the way it already is, since the current position was chosen gradually some years ago, but REW does show the HF FR at the MLP to be somewhat anemic at a quick glance, but I like the way it sounds. Have to think about it.

Most people prefer some HF roll off (I know I do). Of course, when you change the room (with treatment), this will effect the HF energy hitting your ears and you may find you prefer a different direct HF FR. If you're super keen on using REW, I would suggest making sure you label your measurements well so that you don't forget what did what. I find it important to also listen to the changes so you can gain some correlation about how the different measurements translate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cfraser View Post

You see, the second sub was bought at the cusp of the DVD age, not much LFE out there, and it was chosen for music so doesn't even go to 20Hz (I thought...I think the real issue is I can't hear much at 20Hz lol). I thought using it with SubEQ HT would cripple the lowest freq capability of the big SVS one, least that's what I was told. I don't see much harm, only a fraction of a dB harm below 25Hz*, but the improvement overall greatly outweighs that with much cleaner and smoother sound. So clean I asked the usual question "where's the bass gone?", but thanks to REW I see there's actually way more bass.

We all have to work with what we got smile.gif
I can't see how 2 subs would ever be worse then 1. With 2 subs, you can use positioning to create a much flatter FR and reduce ringing.
When you say "way more bass", do you mean extension (lower frequencies), or SPL output? Have you looked at house curves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cfraser View Post

Don't want you guys to do all my graphwork or else I won't learn anything. But thanks for the offer, if you were offering... smile.gif

Not to do all your work tongue.gif just to help you correlate why things sound different and areas of interest.
post #7288 of 9496
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

However, I'd take a good look at the MiniDSP thread before buying one.

Which MiniDSP thread? There are several listed if you just search for minidsp.
post #7289 of 9496
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audionut11 View Post

I can't see how 2 subs would ever be worse then 1. With 2 subs, you can use positioning to create a much flatter FR and reduce ringing.

You can see that in my recent post with graphs where I turned off one of my subs. The effect on FR was dramatic.
post #7290 of 9496
Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post

Which MiniDSP thread? There are several listed if you just search for minidsp.

There's two I read regularly:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1281290/minidsp/1980#post_23986406
(main one on the MiniDSP)

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1488457/tutorial-dual-sub-integration-using-the-minidsp
(integration of two - or more - subs using the MiniDSP; the first page is a great read)
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