Originally Posted by jevansoh
Originally Posted by kbarnes701
Originally Posted by jevansoh
However, a lot of people that follow this philosophy stop there. The fact is, all reflections are NOT bad! In fact, they are necessary! Depending on the size of your room and your level of commitment, anywhere from about 12-20ms (larger rooms up to 25ms) should have a termination of the effectively anechoic space we are creating by reducing the early reflections to -20db in gain relative to the direct sound. There should be reflections after somewhere between 12-20ms but they should be diffuse and dense and not just one or two here and there.
J, there's one thing I have never understood wrt to the above. I can see that some reflections can be a good thing for stereo setups because without them one will never get the sensation of a large room and so on. But why are some reflections necessary when we have 7 or 9 or even 11 channels of sound in a HT room? Isn't any required ambience already recorded into the track and reproduced through the appropriate speakers as required?
I remember Max referencing a movie I am familiar with - Cliffhanger. At the beginning of this movie there is a helicopter scene. If you engage Audyssey DSX Wide, which attempts to simulate reflections in order to attempt to recreate a 'concert hall' space, the helicopter sounds perfect for a helicopter recorded in a large hangar. The problem is, the helicopter is actually outdoors. The additional reflections (simulated here, but would it be any different if they were real reflections?) destroy the intended effect of a helicopter flying outdoors.
I can see the benefit of having some reflections for music and for stereo - but cannot understand why the ambiance recorded into the material is not all we need when we have multiple channels for movie sound reproduction. I am only concerned with movie sound as I do not play music in my HT room. If this is regarded as OT, please PM me if you have time. Many thanks.
PS. I followed and understood all the rest of your post, so I am making progress!
Well Keith, I suppose if 100% of the content you listen to is multi-channel (5 channel or more) and the majority of that content keeps the surrounds active providing that ambiance, then you have a point and I concur that the model which we've been discussing thus far (LEDE/RFZ) is the most suitable and a model approaching NE (Non-Environment) would probably be most suitable.
In this case we'd simply suppress all the reflections to a minimum of -20db from 0ms to infinity without a termination or return.
We'd have an effectively anechoic room at this point and it would not be enjoyable to listen to 2-channel music or even movies that didn't provide ambiance/content in the surrounds, in my opinion.
Your case is a bit different. You actually DO have a dedicated 2 channel room and a dedicated room where you ONLY watch movies.
So... In your case, which I doubt we'll come across very often in this thread, I might recommend just that for you! You won't achieve a true NE room, but you can approach it, which is all we're trying to accomplish in this thread anyway...Getting people on the right path, provide the info and the tools necessary to achieve the goal, but realizing few will take it all the way.
For most folks though, they either don't have a dedicated room at all, in which case it would be pretty boring and lifeless and wouldn't work at all if, for instance, it was a living room where you hoped to have quiet conversation, or they are lucky enough to have ONE dedicated room which must serve a mixture of 2-channel and HT.
When you're listening to two channel and only have those 2 speakers and the room itself to do all the work, in my experience, it's best to account for the needs of those two channels and let the HT fall into place, especially if the ratio of music listening to movie watching approaches 50/50.
This is why there is no one right answer though. Everyone's situation, needs, and goals are different.
This is what makes it difficult if not impossible to put a nice pretty bow on this because we don't start with a neatly wrapped package.
There are different models to get different results and what works for one doesn't work for the other, which is why I hesitate to do what Nyal did and say, This should be your target. Period.
I know he means well, but I just don't believe it can be summed up that easily because of different uses for the rooms and different tastes, not to mention WAF, budget, etc.
So a more one on one approach is probably needed.
There are, however, certain things all the models have in common and only a few of which are drastically different, one of which is this talk about reflections.
Even in the industry there is a wide variance on what is "right" with Floyd Toole himself going against what has been pretty standard for decades now and basically saying there aren't bad reflections and most people prefer them.
While I don't agree, I do agree it's possible that a certain subset of folks that are only used to hearing rooms with lots of reflections and haven't truly experienced a well treated critical listening room might think they want that because they don't know anything else.
There isn't a line in the sand answer here, though, Keith.
What's right for you isn't for the next guy and this was a great question to bring up early on because it shows just how diverse we and our needs truly are.
I'm more than willing to help you achieve whatever model you decide though, to the best of my ability, and as time permits.
To sum it up though, yes, I do believe for you, you need to either decide to try it both ways (depending on how much time/patience you have) or read up on the difference between LEDE and NE and pick one, stop thinking about it, and start working towards it.
Hope this helps,