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post #8251 of 9539
I admittedly don't care to monkey with any of this stuff. I would if I had to, but right now I don't have to.

Jeff

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post #8252 of 9539
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post

The point Keith is making is that by knocking down some of those peaks, there will be less energy in the room and by default less ringing at noticeable levels.
Right, and some of that ringing is just noise that I can't do anything about and the rest of it is in frequency bands that are impractical for me to deal with.

IOW, the lumpiness in the FR is something I don't care about.
Quote:
  It's up to you what you want to focus on but I think the path we've all been taking is to get the FR to our liking and then analyzing the waterfall and ETC's  but YMMV.

Exactly, my FR is to acceptable to me. So I'm turning my attention to areas that are not acceptable to me.

It's my room, not Keith's. Or anyone else's smile.gif
post #8253 of 9539
Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post

So I'm turning my attention to areas that are not acceptable to me.

 

 

OK, so what is your approach going to be?  I think we are all interested.

post #8254 of 9539
artur9, no disrespect intended but I have no clue how you would disregard a 25dB anomaly at 24 Hz in your frequency response for other more important matters. I have to think this is an easier thing to tame with the a very high benefit than even looking at modal decay, or whatever else you have in mind to address.

Sit in your MLP and run the generator with a sine wave through that area...I can't believe that isn't troublesome to you.
post #8255 of 9539
Here is my before and after subs distances tweak graphs with Center speaker and Subs Audyssey ON crossovered @ 80hz. Please let me know how they look. Thanks.

Subs distances before tweak as set by Audyssey: sub1: 11.6', sub2: 7.7'
Subs distances after tweak: sub1: 9', sub2: 5.1'
I also include 2 subs ONLY graphs before and after tweak.
It looks like I have flatten the graph at the Xover point but my subs only graphs show that I have additional dips about a -3db dips at 95 and 110hz after subs distances tweak. Again, all was measured after only 1 mic Audyssey position. I would like to get your opinion before running all 8 and remeasure. Hopefully all the dips at about 52, 95, and 110hz will be gone. Thanks.
post #8256 of 9539
I'm reading on an iPad and the text is too small to read. Please identify which colors represent which measurements.
post #8257 of 9539
Oh sorry. All with Audyssey ON, DynEQ and DV OFF measured at -11 MV with about 60db RTA floor noise
Green: center and subs before tweak as set by Audyssey with distances as: sub1: 11.6', sub2: 7.7'
Blue: center and subs after subs distances tweak with distances as sub1: 9', sub2: 5.1'
Dark gray: Subs only as set by Audyssey.
Pink: subs only after distances tweak.
Thanks Jerry.
post #8258 of 9539
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotto View Post

artur9, no disrespect intended but I have no clue how you would disregard a 25dB anomaly at 24 Hz in your frequency response for other more important matters. ...I can't believe that isn't troublesome to you.

There is quite literally nothing I listen to that plays that low. Other than the occasional sci-fi explosion. Fidelity is less of an issue for explosions I hope never to experience in real life smile.gif

Now, if you meant the modal peak @ around 30Hz, yes, that one is more troublesome to me. So far the only suggestion I've had to deal with it is to use PEQ with the downsides associated with that. You can see Roger and NightShade (i think) disagree over on the Master Acoustics thread on how to deal with it. I have yet to find a completely practical approach to introducing PEQ at that frequence into my system.
post #8259 of 9539
I looked up your posts to find it, and are you referring to this one?

http://www.avsforum.com/t/255432/acoustical-treatments-master-thread/9840#post_24134382

Note that Roger Dressler wasn't discouraging you from pursuing PEQ for your subwoofer, since he points out that your concern about digital side effects is a non-issue for subs. Certainly 48 vs. 96 kHz sampling is.

If it were me, I'd whack that 24 Hz peak over the head with a MiniDSP or Behringer FBD PEQ. And since as you point out your Outlaw M8 isn't rated below 30 Hz, there's no point in pushing them to reproduce a mode they can't.
Edited by sdrucker - 1/20/14 at 5:50pm
post #8260 of 9539
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

Here is my before and after subs distances tweak graphs with Center speaker and Subs Audyssey ON crossovered @ 80hz. Please let me know how they look. Thanks.

Wow, that looks very good to me. A poster for the tweak even, since it's so clear to see the improvement.
post #8261 of 9539
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

I looked up your posts to find it, and are you referring to this one?

http://www.avsforum.com/t/255432/acoustical-treatments-master-thread/9840#post_24134382

Note that Roger Dressler wasn't discouraging you from pursuing PEQ for your subwoofer, since he points out that your concern about digital side effects is a non-issue for subs. Certainly 48 vs. 96 kHz sampling is.

In the above thread, Roger was advocating for PEQ (and what he said makes sense to me, Nyquist etc) and Nightshade was arguing against (screwing up phase relationships, which makes less sense to me).
Quote:
If it were me, I'd whack that 24 Hz peak over the head with a MiniDSP or Behringer FBD PEQ. And since as you point out your Outlaw M8 isn't rated below 30 Hz, there's no point in pushing them to reproduce a mode they can't.

Yeah, I find it difficult to decide amongst the electronic choices. The 2x4 MiniDsp doesn't do what I want (confirmed with the MiniDSP ppl) and looking at the more fully featured minidsp solutions opens up Behringer, Carvin, dbx etc at the same price point.

Until I can decide that and have the time to experiment with it I'm pursuing passive solutions.
post #8262 of 9539
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post

That sounds odd if you're saying REW locks up.  Have you tried measuring them one at a time?  I have an older Infinity sub that still has decent output to 10Hz so I sometimes set my lower limit to 5Hz on bass sweeps to see what's going on. 

It's not that it exactly locked up, but it gives very strange measurement results: really low level, like under 0dB for me, with a REW warning message, and yet the "curve" looks correct in shape but maybe 100dB low. Required restarting REW to correct, nothing else I did would get the proper measurements back. I was measuring FL+FR full range BTW, to 24kHz, and was not just driving the subs, but they were part of the BM combo.

Not that I need to measure below 15Hz, nor do I have two Submersives. Somebody just gave me the idea of measuring down there and since I was already set up...
Edited by cfraser - 1/20/14 at 6:54pm
post #8263 of 9539
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

Oh sorry. All with Audyssey ON, DynEQ and DV OFF measured at -11 MV with about 60db RTA floor noise
Green: center and subs before tweak as set by Audyssey with distances as: sub1: 11.6', sub2: 7.7'
Blue: center and subs after subs distances tweak with distances as sub1: 9', sub2: 5.1'
Dark gray: Subs only as set by Audyssey.
Pink: subs only after distances tweak.
Thanks Jerry.

I think the blue line looks a lot better.
post #8264 of 9539
^^ Thanks for confirming, Jerry. It is good to have someone like you say that smile.gif
I also would like to thanks Keith, Jerry along with a few others that help creating the Audyssey Subs distances tweak. I wouldn't know how to get rid of that huge 15 plus dbs dip at my crossover point without it. A big THANKS.
Edited by Cowboys - 1/20/14 at 7:07pm
post #8265 of 9539
Okay, here are the final graphs after 8 close mics Audyssey cal and subs distances tweak (Each sub distance is reduced by 2.6' from Audyssey setting)

Pink: Center and subs with Audyssey subs distances
Green: Center and subs with subs distances reduced by 2.6' each
Black and dark green overlapped each other: Subs only with and without subs distances changed. They have exact FR and overlaps each other. Compare to the graph I posted earlier with one mic Audyssey cal that the graph introduced 2 additional dips at 95 and 110hz after subs distances changes which is now GONE after 8 mics cal (exactly what I was hoping for smile.gif )
Now is the time to enjoy a movie- Ninja shadow of a tear.


Edited by Cowboys - 1/20/14 at 11:12pm
post #8266 of 9539
Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post

In the above thread, Roger was advocating for PEQ (and what he said makes sense to me, Nyquist etc) and Nightshade was arguing against (screwing up phase relationships, which makes less sense to me).
Yeah, I find it difficult to decide amongst the electronic choices. The 2x4 MiniDsp doesn't do what I want (confirmed with the MiniDSP ppl) and looking at the more fully featured minidsp solutions opens up Behringer, Carvin, dbx etc at the same price point.

Until I can decide that and have the time to experiment with it I'm pursuing passive solutions.

If the peak is minimum phase then EQ will fix phase which was distorted by the room. I'd take measurements at multiple points and look at the Excess Group Delay in REW.
Why is the miniDSP not an option?
post #8267 of 9539
Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Personally I'd concentrate first on getting a decently flat frequency response.

TBH, I don't hear these minor eek.gif variations in the FR. Probably my bad hearing. But I do hear the minor variations in the echos measured by the ETC.

 

Your third waterfall shows peak to trough variation of 30dB. I wouldn't describe that as "minor".

post #8268 of 9539
Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post

The point Keith is making is that by knocking down some of those peaks, there will be less energy in the room and by default less ringing at noticeable levels.
Right, and some of that ringing is just noise that I can't do anything about and the rest of it is in frequency bands that are impractical for me to deal with.

IOW, the lumpiness in the FR is something I don't care about.
Quote:
  It's up to you what you want to focus on but I think the path we've all been taking is to get the FR to our liking and then analyzing the waterfall and ETC's  but YMMV.

Exactly, my FR is to acceptable to me. So I'm turning my attention to areas that are not acceptable to me.

It's my room, not Keith's. Or anyone else's smile.gif

 

Of course it is. I'll leave you to it then. Good luck.

post #8269 of 9539
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotto View Post

artur9, no disrespect intended but I have no clue how you would disregard a 25dB anomaly at 24 Hz in your frequency response for other more important matters. I have to think this is an easier thing to tame with the a very high benefit than even looking at modal decay, or whatever else you have in mind to address.

Sit in your MLP and run the generator with a sine wave through that area...I can't believe that isn't troublesome to you.

 

The 25dB anomaly doesn't interest him. I'm with you - it would sure interest me. But hey, it's his room.

post #8270 of 9539
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

If the peak is minimum phase then EQ will fix phase which was distorted by the room. I'd take measurements at multiple points and look at the Excess Group Delay in REW.
Why is the miniDSP not an option?

The 2x4 miniDSP isn't an option because I am running 3 subs and there's no matrix routing in that one. If all I wanted to do was run the LFE into it then I could just use a Y-cable but I want to do more than that. I was also hoping to run the LCR into it for crossover purposes but obviously that wouldn't work.

The more expensive ones (10x10 etc) would probably work fine but at that price point I might be better served by a purpose-built solution like a Behringer et al. I am (very slowly) working through those options to see what suits.
post #8271 of 9539
^^ How would a Behringer FBD or FBQ2496, designed for live music or recording use and generally only a two-channel device, be an improvement over a multichannel (up to 8 analog channnels) product designed for home audio, with an active AVS forum, and an active development team?

Unless you're really counting pennies, and you've ruled out the 2x4, you'd be better off getting a 4 x 10 ($499) or for up to 8 channels, the 10x10 ($599)? if you must, you can save $100 or so and look into the kit version, but you'd need hands-on skills to power the board.

For that money, not only do you get bass management and matrix routing, but PEQ and level control of both the input and individual outputs (if needed), as well as the ability to flexibly set crossovers, low and high pass filters of many types (LR, BW, Bessel) and rolloffs (anywhere from 1st to 4th order), phase inversion, and compression types. You also can use your existing REW USB mic and measure the room while making changes, with either manual PEQ or Auto EQ filters from REW. And you avoid the need for an ugly grey component requiring an external MIDI box. What's not to like? smile.gif

However, you must make your own choices, and if you prefer to follow your own path and follow your own counsel as things stand, good luck.
Edited by sdrucker - 1/21/14 at 9:31am
post #8272 of 9539
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

^^ How would a Behringer FBD or FBQ2496, designed for live music or recording use and generally only a two-channel device, be an improvement over a multichannel (up to 8 analog channnels) product designed for home audio, with an active AVS forum, and an active development team?

I don't know that they are. From reading the forums I have gotten the sense that the minidsp product line is not a 100% consumer/end-user product. Prosumer, probably and DIY definitely. That has me concerned.

Things like
1) It has to be on a UPS because when it turns on/off the transients can blow speakers
2) All the talk of trying to understand how to power the thing.
3) The differences between the balanced and unbalanced versions and Phoenix connectors.
4) Whether its voltage levels drive amps sufficiently well.

Now, I may have the kit version and the boxed version all mixed up in my head.

I agree with you about the "designed for live music" aspect of the Behringer's et al. But there are also plenty of people on the minidsp thread that claim that this, that or the other dsp, Behringer, Carvin, Ashley etc device is equivalent to the minidsp.

I don't think carrying on this conversation on the minidsp is proper for this thread....
post #8273 of 9539
Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post

I don't know that they are. From reading the forums I have gotten the sense that the minidsp product line is not a 100% consumer/end-user product. Prosumer, probably and DIY definitely. That has me concerned.

Things like
1) It has to be on a UPS because when it turns on/off the transients can blow speakers
2) All the talk of trying to understand how to power the thing.
3) The differences between the balanced and unbalanced versions and Phoenix connectors.
4) Whether its voltage levels drive amps sufficiently well.

Now, I may have the kit version and the boxed version all mixed up in my head.

I agree with you about the "designed for live music" aspect of the Behringer's et al. But there are also plenty of people on the minidsp thread that claim that this, that or the other dsp, Behringer, Carvin, Ashley etc device is equivalent to the minidsp.

I don't think carrying on this conversation on the minidsp is proper for this thread....

Agreed, and I also believe that the whole balanced/unbalanced thing and voltage level issue is a barrier to following the MiniDSP thread, from first-hand experience. I stayed away from the MiniDSP for several months because of that, until a few people on the thread (including Kal Rubinson, who's at a similar level of respect on AVS as a Roger Dressler) convinced me that for a conventional unbalanced RCA or balanced XLR setup, consumer subs (I have HSUs) and a setup without insane power requirements (Denon 4311 as my amp/AVR and Mythos ST speakers), the fear factor was silly as long as you use your subs properly with respect to gain, and leave yourself headroom.

But I will note that on any thread, you're going to find a collection of problems and folks with non-standard setups that run into issues using the product, and try quirky/odd workarounds. Their issues can dominate the discussion. And they have their pet products as well (yes, there's a glass house issue here LOL smile.gif ) . But you need to focus on common elements and the experience of users with setups similar to yours, not the extremes.

And I strongly disagree that MiniDSP is not "consumer oriented", especially if you're using standard RCA connections, consumer subs/amps, and pre/pro pre-outs vs. DIY speaker/subs and pro amps. I'd also look up the Stereophile article that Kal Rubinson wrote, which you can find in a link upstream, and on their website, for details about why I, and others based on suggestions, think this may be of help to you. I'd use a MiniDSP in a box or an AntiMode ahead of a Behringer unit unless I was only interested in straight EQ of one (or two) subs, but that's just me.

Regardless, I think the point is that however you approach it, there are PEQ solutions that can address at least some of your issues - especially the honking big peak at about 25 Hz - which can help you better target your approach with treatments and possibly be a better use of your time (if not money necessarily). Such solutions and REW together will make your journey easier if you choose to pursue them. But if you don't, and want to keep working with passive treatments alone, that's up to you.
Edited by sdrucker - 1/21/14 at 11:40am
post #8274 of 9539
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

^^ How would a Behringer FBD or FBQ2496, designed for live music or recording use and generally only a two-channel device, be an improvement over a multichannel (up to 8 analog channnels) product designed for home audio, with an active AVS forum, and an active development team?.

Please see the Behringer DCX2496 active crossover/PEQ device.

Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

I'd also look up the Stereophile article that Kal Rubinson wrote, which you can find in a link upstream, and on their website, for details about why I, and others based on suggestions, think this may be of help to you.

Kal needed a little help from AustinJerry's guide to complete his article. smile.gif
Edited by andyc56 - 1/21/14 at 11:43am
post #8275 of 9539
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post

Please see the Behringer DCX2496 active crossover/PEQ device.

Good point - although from a quick look it and the MiniDSP (as well as the AntiMode) have different strengths for a consumer audio user. I won't get into that, since the reader can look those up for themselves. And the pricing's in the $300 to $400 range, which within a few hundred dollars of the MiniDSP 4x10 and 10x10 HD.

To stay on OT it's another option for artur if he wants to use PEQ to address some of his room's FR issues with subs.
Edited by sdrucker - 1/21/14 at 11:45am
post #8276 of 9539
By repositioning my 3rd subwoofer, adjusting its gain and crossovers I managed to improve the horrible FR, I think. It really is a game of whack-a-mole. Before image then after.





I'm not completely hardheaded and rhino-skinned smile.gif
post #8277 of 9539

Assuming the blue waterfall is the "after" waterfall, the frequency response looks somewhat smoother in the 25-50Hz range, but the bottom end seems to be significantly weaker, which would be strange after adding a third sub.

 

The ringing at 30Hz is still there, if not even a bit worse.  Otherwise, it is difficult to see any other differences.

post #8278 of 9539
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Assuming the blue waterfall is the "after" waterfall, the frequency response looks somewhat smoother in the 25-50Hz range, but the bottom end seems to be significantly weaker, which would be strange after adding a third sub.

The ringing at 30Hz is still there, if not even a bit worse.  Otherwise, it is difficult to see any other differences.

Not so strange, Jerry. IIRC Artur9's Outlaw M8 subs are only rated down to 29 Hz +/- 3 db as per the Outlaw site (http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/m8.html), so if he moved the sub from a point where it may have benefited from room gain < 29 Hz, it's possible that you could get more impact from room gain around 30 hz and smoother performance from 25 to 50 Hz, but lower performance where the sub's not rated in the first place.

Bottom line is it's still problematic...smoother but a larger area of boominess.
post #8279 of 9539

Stuart, if you keep this up, you are going to have to start teaching a course in audio theory at the local community college.  ;)

post #8280 of 9539
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Stuart, if you keep this up, you are going to have to start teaching a course in audio theory at the local community college.  wink.gif

That's a frightening thought...eek.gif

If you must know, I'm trying to avoid work right now....which is a bad idea overall..smile.gif
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