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Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How... - Page 32

post #931 of 9584
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post


Tell me Jerry, in case of Audyssey setup, how does the Audyssey mic know how to set the speakers trims to reference level? Is there a need for a separate SPL meter or not? I can't remember anything mentioned in the setup guide to this extent! Case not closed, let's discuss till we can come to agreement! Deal?

 

I don't know what the Audyssey setup has to do with our discussion, Feri.  Back on topic, I presented you with a response from John M., the author of REW, saying that a microphone calibration is a required step for all mic's other than the UMIK-1, which enjoys in-built support in the current beta version of REW.  For anyone else, this would be proof enough.  Why is it not good enough for you?

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #932 of 9584
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post


I have no idea what you are talking about, Feri, but you are wrong.  To settle this once and for all, I have received the following response on the HTS Forum from John, the author of REW:

"The UMIK-1 cal file includes a sensitivity figure which REW can use, along with the Windows mic volume setting, to know what the actual SPL in the room is. For other mics the SPL Level Calibration is needed to tell REW how the signal level it sees relates to actual SPL, and that calibration remains valid only if the input path gain remains the same (i.e. input volume setting is not altered, preamp gain not altered if using a preamp)."

Case closed.  You may read the post here:  http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/65260-using-usb-mics-hdmi-several-questions.html#axzz2JsRELEV1

Tell me Jerry, in case of Audyssey setup, how does the Audyssey mic know how to set the speakers trims to reference level? Is there a need for a separate SPL meter or not? I can't remember anything mentioned in the setup guide to this extent! Case not closed, let's discuss till we can come to agreement! Deal?

 

That's entirely different isn't it? Audyssey know the input sensitivity of the mic being used, REW doesn't. With Audyssey there is no external soundcard with its own input sensitivity (which will differ from one soundcard to another). Audyssey doesn't have a gain level set in Windows to deal with (which could be set differently for any given number of users). Audyssey works in conjunction with the AVR manufacturers who reveal the specs of their AVRs to Audyssey so there are no unknown variables. Etc etc. Surely?

post #933 of 9584
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 
You're kidding, right? LOL! Have you read even the last two pages of this thread?

I have read 5 pages which means I've missed out on 27. I thought I would surprise myself by waltzing in here and downloading the easy to understand tutorial in PDF format that covers all possible scenarios. I expected a lot but what I got was not a lot. Suffice it to say, I am disappointed son. Heavens, I am disappointed ...
post #934 of 9584
Quote:
Originally Posted by goneten View Post


I have read 5 pages which means I've missed out on 27. I thought I would surprise myself by waltzing in here and finding an easy to understand tutorial that covers all possible scenarios. I am disappointed son. Heavens, I am disappointed ...

 

No need to be disappointed.  I provided you with a link to the guide.

post #935 of 9584
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry 
No need to be disappointed. I provided you with a link to the guide.

Thank you very much, sir!
post #936 of 9584
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I don't know what the Audyssey setup has to do with our discussion, Feri.  Back on topic, I presented you with a response from John M., the author of REW, saying that a microphone calibration is a required step for all mic's other than the UMIK-1, which enjoys in-built support in the current beta version of REW.  For anyone else, this would be proof enough.  Why is it not good enough for you?

In that case I kindly request you to delete my name (nick) from the credits of your REW setup guide. From now on I will refrain from posting in this thread. Most probably will move out of AVSForum as a whole, indeed. No need to for me to be among a crowd that has no basics on subjects that needs to be built upon thereon.

Wish you all the best in you life.
post #937 of 9584
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

The REW Guide has been updated to Revision 2.0.

This revision now has instructions on how to configure a USB microphone for use with REW.  The guide specifically references the UMM-6 microphone, but other USB microphones should work in a similar manner.  Click the link in my signature to download a copy of the guide.
I think this SPL meter sold on ebay would be sufficient with your guide calibrating the UMM-6 mic on step 5 regarding selecting weight C, Slow mode, 80db range.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/261152785189



Product Features :

* Easy to use and handy instrument for sound quality control in office, home, school and construction site. The meter has wide range of applications such as noise pollution studies, research and other industrial use.
* Low battery indicator
* Monitor the sound levels from traffic noise, alarm systems and workplace machinery Conformed to the IEC 651 Type 2 and ANSI S1.4 Type 2 set standard
* Wide Measuring Range: 40 ~ 130 dB
* With 2 equivalent weighted sound pressure levels A and C
* Fast and Slow dynamic characteristic modes
* Bar graph indication for Sound Level Range
* Maximum hold function
* Large LCD screen with 4 digits reading
* MAX/MIN QUASI-ANALOG BAR INDICATOR
* AUTO/MANUAL RANGING SELECTION
* Fast & Slow response selectable
* Auto power off : 20 min after non-operation

Can you confirm?
post #938 of 9584
Just about any sound level meter will suffice for getting REW a reasonable calibration point.
Within a couple of dBs is going to be more than adequate for most of us.

It may be that the UMM-6 will gain full native support from REW, in which case CSL may be able to supply a sensitivity reading that bypasses the need for an external sound meter - just like the UMIK-1.
This is something that Jason and JohnM will maybe look into?

Regards, Mike.
post #939 of 9584
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

In that case I kindly request you to delete my name (nick) from the credits of your REW setup guide. From now on I will refrain from posting in this thread. Most probably will move out of AVSForum as a whole, indeed. No need to for me to be among a crowd that has no basics on subjects that needs to be built upon thereon.

Wish you all the best in you life.

There's a clear argument against what you've been asserting, an argument supported by the developer of the software, and when presented with this you take your ball and go home? The "S" in AVS does not stand for schoolyard.
post #940 of 9584
Quote:
Originally Posted by goneten View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 
You're kidding, right? LOL! Have you read even the last two pages of this thread?

I have read 5 pages which means I've missed out on 27. I thought I would surprise myself by waltzing in here and downloading the easy to understand tutorial in PDF format that covers all possible scenarios. I expected a lot but what I got was not a lot. Suffice it to say, I am disappointed son. Heavens, I am disappointed ...

I dont know how you missed post 891 then just a couple of pages back.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1449924/simplified-rew-setup-and-use-usb-mic-hdmi-connection-including-measurement-techniques-and-how-to-interpret-graphs/870#post_22910500

I think you have got Jerry's fabulous guide now though so you are good to go.
Edited by kbarnes701 - 2/4/13 at 3:32am
post #941 of 9584
Quote:
Originally Posted by JD in NJ View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

In that case I kindly request you to delete my name (nick) from the credits of your REW setup guide. From now on I will refrain from posting in this thread. Most probably will move out of AVSForum as a whole, indeed. No need to for me to be among a crowd that has no basics on subjects that needs to be built upon thereon.

Wish you all the best in you life.

There's a clear argument against what you've been asserting, an argument supported by the developer of the software, and when presented with this you take your ball and go home? The "S" in AVS does not stand for schoolyard.

 

+1. I think we can all agree now that the discussion is closed. John McMahon Mulcahy has spoken and his word is indisputable. All mics, other than the UMIK-1, need to be calibrated with a SPL meter.

 

Even Feri cannot possibly argue with the author of the software!


Edited by kbarnes701 - 2/4/13 at 6:02am
post #942 of 9584
Has anyone in the UK received their UMM-6 from CSL yet? Mine made it as far as New York on the 29th of Jan, but has not moved since!
Regards, Mike.
post #943 of 9584
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I don't know what the Audyssey setup has to do with our discussion, Feri.  Back on topic, I presented you with a response from John M., the author of REW, saying that a microphone calibration is a required step for all mic's other than the UMIK-1, which enjoys in-built support in the current beta version of REW.  For anyone else, this would be proof enough.  Why is it not good enough for you?

In that case I kindly request you to delete my name (nick) from the credits of your REW setup guide. From now on I will refrain from posting in this thread. Most probably will move out of AVSForum as a whole, indeed. No need to for me to be among a crowd that has no basics on subjects that needs to be built upon thereon.

Wish you all the best in you life.

 

Feri, if you do not mind my saying so, that is a strange position to take and perhaps, when you have had time to reflect, you will reconsider it. There is no issue of people having "no basics on subjects that need to be built upon" - you are simply wrong in your assertion that USB mics (other than the UMIk-1) do not need independent SLP calibration using an external meter. John McMahon Mulcahy has confirmed that USB mics DO indeed currently need calibrating using a SPL meter and that is now the end of it - there is no longer anything to discuss in this regard. Audyssey is irrelevant to this discussion. 

 

Your long post, with illustrations, is now seen to be misinformation (although unintended) and the honourable thing for you to do would be to correct it or delete it, in case others read it and become confused. I will delete the quoting of it in my reply to you for the same reason.

 

Personally, I hope you do not leave the thread or the whole of AVS - but it would help, I am sure, if you were able to admit when you are wrong that you are wrong instead of trying to deflect the discussion elsewhere, as in this and many other recent cases, with a view to defending the indefensible. There is no shame in being wrong sometimes - all of us are - and the majority of us are here to learn. Making mistakes is an essential part of the learning process as you know. I wish you well my friend.


Edited by kbarnes701 - 2/4/13 at 6:01am
post #944 of 9584
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV_mike View Post

Has anyone in the UK received their UMM-6 from CSL yet? Mine made it as far as New York on the 29th of Jan, but has not moved since!
Regards, Mike.

 

Not yet. Mine was mailed out on 27 Jan. Herb used USPS which is always very slow in getting stuff to the UK - by contrast Fedex can take less than 5 days door to door. I assume you know that the UK leg of the journey is handled by Parcelforce in the UK, so you can track it on their site. But it will not appear on their tracking until they have received it of course - currently my status is showing as 'unknown' so the mic has not yet entered the UK system. I generally allow two full weeks for anything sent by USPS. I wish suppliers would give us the choice of USPS or Fedex - the latter is only a few bucks more.

 

Incidentally, the USPS tracking site will not show any more detail than you are already seeing. The mic has probably long since left New York but it won't show up as being any place else until PF get it in the UK.

post #945 of 9584
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Not yet. Mine was mailed out on 27 Jan. Herb used USPS which is always very slow in getting stuff to the UK - by contrast Fedex can take less than 5 days door to door. I assume you know that the UK leg of the journey is handled by Parcelforce in the UK, so you can track it on their site. But it will not appear on their tracking until they have received it of course - currently my status is showing as 'unknown' so the mic has not yet entered the UK system. I generally allow two full weeks for anything sent by USPS. I wish suppliers would give us the choice of USPS or Fedex - the latter is only a few bucks more.

Incidentally, the USPS tracking site will not show any more detail than you are already seeing. The mic has probably long since left New York but it won't show up as being any place else until PF get it in the UK.

I'll keep a check of the Parcel Farce site from now on, I did not know that the USPS site would stop tracking after it left the US, thanks for that.
post #946 of 9584
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV_mike View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Not yet. Mine was mailed out on 27 Jan. Herb used USPS which is always very slow in getting stuff to the UK - by contrast Fedex can take less than 5 days door to door. I assume you know that the UK leg of the journey is handled by Parcelforce in the UK, so you can track it on their site. But it will not appear on their tracking until they have received it of course - currently my status is showing as 'unknown' so the mic has not yet entered the UK system. I generally allow two full weeks for anything sent by USPS. I wish suppliers would give us the choice of USPS or Fedex - the latter is only a few bucks more.

Incidentally, the USPS tracking site will not show any more detail than you are already seeing. The mic has probably long since left New York but it won't show up as being any place else until PF get it in the UK.

I'll keep a check of the Parcel Farce site from now on, I did not know that the USPS site would stop tracking after it left the US, thanks for that.

 

Yeah - there are various sites that track USPS as well as their own, but none of them tell you what happens once the package leaves the US AFAIK. I gave a supplier a lot of hassle once when I thought the package I had waited for for days was still at the sending Post Office!  That's when I discovered the way it actually works ;)  Just keep checking the PF site.

 

This tracker site seems to believe my package is currently in Ghana, if their map is to be believed LOL.

 

http://www.packagetrackr.com/track/usps/

 

 

post #947 of 9584
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV_mike View Post

I'll keep a check of the Parcel Farce site from now on, I did not know that the USPS site would stop tracking after it left the US, thanks for that.

 

I'll post here when mine arrives of course - yours should land at more or less the same time.

post #948 of 9584
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post


This tracker site seems to believe my package is currently in Ghana, if their map is to be believed LOL.


I hate it when my AV equipment is better traveled than I am.
post #949 of 9584
Quote:
Originally Posted by JD in NJ View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post


This tracker site seems to believe my package is currently in Ghana, if their map is to be believed LOL.
 

I hate it when my AV equipment is better traveled than I am.

 

Hahaha!  Very good.

post #950 of 9584
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I can't see what the fuss is about, personally. It takes a few seconds to do what REW itself tells you to do in that dialog box you captured. Almost all of us have SPL meters, and for those who don't (Theresa wink.gif) the cost is negligible as a percentage of our total system cost. And, as you have said more than once, a SPL meter is a darned handy tool to own anyway. So whatever anyone says, anywhere, I will still be taking the few seconds to match REW with my SPL meter - that way I know I cannot possibly go wrong, regardless of which 'theory' is gaining ground on any particular day, from any particular member.
Guy goes to his friend's house and sees him sitting on the couch snapping his fingers. He asks him why he is doing that. He answers, "I am keeping the pink elephants away." Puzzled, the friend asks how that works. He answers, "you don't see any pink elephants, do you?" smile.gif

We don't do things for the sake of doing them if we can't articulate what can go wrong. It is extra work for no reason and the longer we make this guide, the more chance it will scare people off from getting into this task. And it is not just running this once. You will have to set all the parameters to the identical values every time you start or else the calibration will be invalidated. Once you learn how to use the tool you will find yourself making a lot of measurements and anything that gets rid of tedious steps helps with getting to the data sooner will be a welcome addition.
Quote:
I would commend my method to all smile.gif
Your commend is heard loud and clear. You want us to snap our fingers to keep the pink elephants away. biggrin.gif Seriously, as with any other task, when you use a tool a lot as I have, you develop more optimized workflows. If you have been using REW and are an expert in it, let's have you articulate what can go wrong. If you are new to REW and/or are not able to say what "can possibly go wrong" then we don't need to waste time and energy on it in this thread or the FAQ.
post #951 of 9584
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I will correct my post.
In that case, I'm going to delete my previous post, and later this one (less thread clutter). You might want to delete your reply as well.

 

Done. Thanks Sanjay.

post #952 of 9584
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV_mike View Post

Just about any sound level meter will suffice for getting REW a reasonable calibration point.
Correct me if I'm wrong but this is incorrect. smile.gif

I can find at least one item from ebay and amazon that doesn't seem to have the required features.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Scosche-SPL1000F-60-to-130db-SPL-Decible-Meter-Reader-/110847703104?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19cf09b840

http://www.amazon.com/Mini-Digital-Sound-Level-Meter/dp/B001THX3M0/ref=pd_sim_e_7

That is why my previous post asked someone to confirm if the meter in question will do the job. It appears that it does but I still wish for confirmation.
Edited by Stealth3si - 2/4/13 at 10:21am
post #953 of 9584
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth3si View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AV_mike View Post

Just about any sound level meter will suffice for getting REW a reasonable calibration point.
Correct me if I'm wrong but this is incorrect. smile.gif

I can find at least one item from ebay and amazon that doesn't seem to have the required features.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Scosche-SPL1000F-60-to-130db-SPL-Decible-Meter-Reader-/110847703104?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19cf09b840

http://www.amazon.com/Mini-Digital-Sound-Level-Meter/dp/B001THX3M0/ref=pd_sim_e_7

That is why my previous post asked someone to confirm if the meter in question will do the job. It appears that it does but I still wish for confirmation.

What feature are you referring to that these are lacking?

All you need to do is provide REW an SPL reference point. I use my RS SPL meter for that but those with audyssey can totally work around the SPL meter requirement.

Your Audyssey mic has that reference point in the calibration file in the AVR. So after running Audyssey and all your trims are set so the test tone plays 75db. Position your USB mic at MLP(as close as possible to 1st Audyssey mic position), play your AVR's test tone which you know to be 75db, and tell REW that is 75db in the SPL meter calibration box.

There are advantages mentioned here about having REW in the right level but is it the end all be all? I say no. it's OK in my mind if comparing FR graphs and they are 3-4db off from one another. Waterfall gets weird though.
post #954 of 9584
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth3si View Post

Correct me if I'm wrong but this is incorrect. smile.gif

I can find at least one item from ebay and amazon that doesn't seem to have the required features.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Scosche-SPL1000F-60-to-130db-SPL-Decible-Meter-Reader-/110847703104?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19cf09b840

http://www.amazon.com/Mini-Digital-Sound-Level-Meter/dp/B001THX3M0/ref=pd_sim_e_7

That is why my previous post asked someone to confirm if the meter in question will do the job. It appears that it does but I still wish for confirmation.

The meter you describe is fine, ok.
Regards, MIke.
post #955 of 9584
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post



...those with audyssey can totally work around the SPL meter requirement.

Your Audyssey mic has that reference point in the calibration file in the AVR. So after running Audyssey and all your trims are set so the test tone plays 75db. Position your USB mic at MLP(as close as possible to 1st Audyssey mic position), play your AVR's test tone which you know to be 75db, and tell REW that is 75db in the SPL meter calibration box.

Thanks for your post dstew100! This is exactly what I tried to show in my post #919 with a lot of screenshots until the "nah sayers" jumped on me (LOL). Since we have a system already level calibrated there is no need for a separate external Radio Shack (or other) meter to level calibrate REW. You can also generate a -30 dB test signal in REW to see 75 dB in REW's SPL meter panel. BTW, it can also be done with any level once the system has been calibrated by Audyssey (or MCACC or YPAO, etc.) Hope members without an external SPL meter are not discuridged any more. smile.gif

Thanks for coming along. smile.gif
post #956 of 9584
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth3si View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AV_mike View Post

Just about any sound level meter will suffice for getting REW a reasonable calibration point.
Correct me if I'm wrong but this is incorrect. smile.gif

I can find at least one item from ebay and amazon that doesn't seem to have the required features.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Scosche-SPL1000F-60-to-130db-SPL-Decible-Meter-Reader-/110847703104?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19cf09b840

http://www.amazon.com/Mini-Digital-Sound-Level-Meter/dp/B001THX3M0/ref=pd_sim_e_7

That is why my previous post asked someone to confirm if the meter in question will do the job. It appears that it does but I still wish for confirmation.

 

I guess you mean they can't do slow/fast response and C weighting. Just get te Radio Shack version - they are abundant, cheap and work well enough.

 

I'd ignore those who say you don't need to do this step with REW. The author of the software says you do and nobody can know more then he does about REW. (If you have the UMIK-1 mic, then you are exempted).

post #957 of 9584
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Thanks for your post dstew100! This is exactly what I tried to show in my post #919 with a lot of screenshots until the "nah sayers" jumped on me (LOL). Since we have a system already level calibrated there is no need for a separate external Radio Shack (or other) meter to level calibrate REW. You can also generate a -30 dB test signal in REW to see 75 dB in REW's SPL meter panel. BTW, it can also be done with any level once the system has been calibrated by Audyssey (or MCACC or YPAO, etc.) Hope members without an external SPL meter are not discuridged any more. smile.gif

Thanks for coming along. smile.gif
And I said it indirectly before that smile.gif:
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

I am unclear on the need to know the true SPL using REW especially if as you correctly say, we will have other means to set the levels correctly (i.e. SPL meter or AVR's auto-eq system).
post #958 of 9584
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post



...those with audyssey can totally work around the SPL meter requirement.

Your Audyssey mic has that reference point in the calibration file in the AVR. So after running Audyssey and all your trims are set so the test tone plays 75db. Position your USB mic at MLP(as close as possible to 1st Audyssey mic position), play your AVR's test tone which you know to be 75db, and tell REW that is 75db in the SPL meter calibration box.

Thanks for your post dstew100! This is exactly what I tried to show in my post #919 with a lot of screenshots until the "nah sayers" jumped on me (LOL). Since we have a system already level calibrated there is no need for a separate external Radio Shack (or other) meter to level calibrate REW. You can also generate a -30 dB test signal in REW to see 75 dB in REW's SPL meter panel. BTW, it can also be done with any level once the system has been calibrated by Audyssey (or MCACC or YPAO, etc.) Hope members without an external SPL meter are not discuridged any more. smile.gif

Thanks for coming along. smile.gif

 

I am astonished, Feri, that you feel you know better than, and disagree with, the author of the software who specifically says you do need a SPL meter to calibrate the mic (except for the UMIK-1). Constantly telling people, contrary to John M's specific advice, that they can omit this step is tantamount to disseminating misinformation. So every time you do it, I will set the record straight if that is OK with you - in the interests of balance.

post #959 of 9584
So are we saying the argument comes down to "I don't need a 20 dollar sound meter, because I have a 500 dollar receiver that can accomplish the same goal in a roundabout fashion"? In either case, whether you calibrate REW to a sound meter or to an AVR receiver that's been auto-calibrated in place with a microphone of known sensitivity, have we not effectively performed the same task?
post #960 of 9584
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post


Thanks for your post dstew100! This is exactly what I tried to show in my post #919 with a lot of screenshots until the "nah sayers" jumped on me (LOL). Since we have a system already level calibrated there is no need for a separate external Radio Shack (or other) meter to level calibrate REW. You can also generate a -30 dB test signal in REW to see 75 dB in REW's SPL meter panel. BTW, it can also be done with any level once the system has been calibrated by Audyssey (or MCACC or YPAO, etc.) Hope members without an external SPL meter are not discuridged any more. smile.gif

Thanks for coming along. smile.gif

 

Your statement is not quite accurate, Feri.  When I refer to "calibrating the mic", I mean playing a test tone of a known level, and then entering that value into REW.  There are more ways than one to accomplish this.  One way is to measure the REW-generated test tone played through the AVR at a specific MV level, measure the tone with an SPL, and entering the value into the calibration input box.  I would call,this the "legacy" way to calibrate.  Another way would be to set the AVR to play a test tone at a known volume level.  As Dstew100 suggests, the speaker trim level tones generated by the AVR are 75dB, set by Audyssey.  There would be nothing wrong with using this tone of a known output level to calibrate the mic.

 

However, I stand by my original statements:  1) the microphone needs to be calibrated, and 2) the method you initially described is not a valid way to do it.

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