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2013 4K Harman Kardon AVR 2700 & 3700 receivers

post #1 of 118
1/6/13 at 6:27pm
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Officially announced on January 4, 2013 (last Friday), just ahead of their CES 2013 debut next week.

Official product pages at HK:

AVR 2700 MSRP $799

AVR 3700 MSRP $999

Common specs:
  • - 8x HDMI 1.4 inputs (7+1 on the front), HDMI out(s) w/ 3D, Audio Return Channel, HDMI Bypass (pass-through) Mode, CEC and Deep Color support
  • - 4K scaling and pass-through (by STMicroelectronics, using their latest Faroudja-branded Athena-series 4K SoC?)
  • - networking w/ full AirPlay and DLNA 1.5 support (GUI-based browsing) incl. optional HARMAN Music Manager sw for Windows and OS X
  • - vTuner internet radio w/ customizable settings (favorites etc) via www.radioharmankardon.com
  • - front USB port w/ iOS/MP3/Android/MSM (Mass Storage Mode) support
  • - Zone II support (w/ 5ch main in multizone mode)
  • - EZSet/EQ II room correction w/ sub-management (in manual mode available XO settings are Large, 40Hz, 60Hz, 80Hz, 100Hz, 120Hz, 150Hz or 200Hz)
  • - Dolby Volume leveling w/ dynamic range management
  • - HARMAN Logic 7® (stereo-to-7.1 w/ Movie, Music or Game mode), HARMAN Virtual Speaker (Wide, Reference modes), HARMAN Headphone surround modes
  • - DTS-HD High Resolution Audio, DTS-HD Master Audio, DTS, DTS-ES (Discrete and Matrix), DTS Neo:6® (Cinema, Music), DTS 96/24™
  • - Dolby TrueHD, Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital EX, Dolby Pro Logic® (Movie, Music or Game modes) IIx and IIz (Front Height)
  • - standard 5ch and 7ch stereo modes
  • - Harman Kardon AVR remote control app for Android and iOS devices
  • - green design w/ greatly reduced weight using switching power supplies (think of your PC's PSU)

Common manual AVR 2700/2700 (and for European models 270/370)

Compared to AVR 2700 the 3700 comes with the following extras:
  • - 2nd HDMI 1.4 out (fully functioning w/ 3D, ARC, HDMI Bypass (pass-through) Mode, CEC and Deep Color etc)
  • - added WiFi network option (2700 is wired-only)
  • - 7.2ch w/ second subwoofer (w/ bass-mgmt in EzSet/EQ) output (2700 is 7.1ch)
  • - full pre-outs
  • - Zone II remote
  • - higher 125W/ch (stereo-measured) performance @6/8Ω w/ 440W peak power consumption (2700 is 100W/ch @6/8Ω w/ 370W peak consumption)
  • - higher current @42 amps (2700 is 39 amps)
  • - ~1lb heavier (17.6 vs 16.9 lbs)
  • - some distortion numbers though it might be just incorrect web specs

Note: 4K scaler chip model is still unknown - though my guess is still STDP9310, STmicro's site is a mess, if anyone has a solid info please, let me know... rolleyes.gif


Edited by T2k - 1/10/13 at 10:23am
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post #2 of 118
1/6/13 at 6:27pm
Thread Starter 
[reserved]
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post #3 of 118
1/6/13 at 7:36pm
With 8 HDMI, it sure does clean up the back a lot. Almost looks empty back there...like you see on older budget receivers.

So I'm assuming since it has Airplay, you could use your iPhone or iPad to control it?
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post #4 of 118
1/6/13 at 7:48pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by youthman View Post

With 8 HDMI, it sure does clean up the back a lot. Almost looks empty back there...like you see on older budget receivers.
So I'm assuming since it has Airplay, you could use your iPhone or iPad to control it?

Correct, see first review here: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/harman-kardon-avr/id549776020?mt=8

Same true for Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.harman.avr

PS: added direct links to first post, thx for the tip. smile.gif
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post #5 of 118
1/9/13 at 6:08pm
The new 2700 and 3700 models are much "greener" than the 1405watt max PSU spec found on the US website. Those power consumption numbers are from the old 745 and 7550 flagships. The more eco-friendly x700s SMPSs peak at 440 watts power consumption for the 3700 and 370w for the 2700 per most recent manual release, which makes more sense.

An interesting change for the new models - finally a user-selectable subwoofer crossover instead of the fixed 100hz crossover used on the past several 2 series and up generations. Seems to replace the sub transducer size option.
Quote:
Common specs:
- 8x HDMI 1.4 inputs (7+1 on the front), 2x HDMI outs w/ 3D, Audio Return Channel, HDMI Bypass (pass-through) Mode, CEC and Deep Color support
- EZSet/EQ II room correction w/ sub-management (in manual mode available XO settings are Large, 40Hz, 60Hz, 80Hz, 100Hz, 120Hz, 150Hz or 200Hz)
The dual HDMI output is a step up feature for the 3700.

Unfortunately, as far as I can tell as expected the new models will not be using the Harman/JBL developed ezset/eq II. I'm curious how the sub equalization is handled with the 3700 when two subs are connected. The manual shows speaker level for each sub is independent, crossover appears to be shared. Wonder if subs actually are independently eq'd (like ezset/eqII did on the past 7 series models) with a newer version of "ezset/eq" on the cirrus logic? DSP - or if it is just a split signal like most.
Either way, I'm looking forward to some hands-on experience with these new models!
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post #6 of 118
1/10/13 at 10:31am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dRockHK View Post

The new 2700 and 3700 models are much "greener" than the 1405watt max PSU spec found on the US website. Those power consumption numbers are from the old 745 and 7550 flagships. The more eco-friendly x700s SMPSs peak at 440 watts power consumption for the 3700 and 370w for the 2700 per most recent manual release, which makes more sense.

An interesting change for the new models - finally a user-selectable subwoofer crossover instead of the fixed 100hz crossover used on the past several 2 series and up generations. Seems to replace the sub transducer size option.
The dual HDMI output is a step up feature for the 3700.

Thanks for spotting them - I've corrected all + some others I've found in the manual (it seems web specs are indeed pretty much worthless.)
Quote:
Unfortunately, as far as I can tell as expected the new models will not be using the Harman/JBL developed ezset/eq II. I'm curious how the sub equalization is handled with the 3700 when two subs are connected. The manual shows speaker level for each sub is independent, crossover appears to be shared. Wonder if subs actually are independently eq'd (like ezset/eqII did on the past 7 series models) with a newer version of "ezset/eq" on the cirrus logic? DSP - or if it is just a split signal like most.
Either way, I'm looking forward to some hands-on experience with these new models!

On page 36 "(Advanced Functions) under "Audio Effects Button/EZ Set/EQ" the manual says "EZ Set/EQ: This setting activates or deactivates the equalization settings obtained when the EzSet/EQ II process was run. The settings are saved for reactivation at a later listening session."

Now I know that everywhere else it's just EZ Set/EQ, without the II part but that could be also due to lousy writing... probably you're right, it's not the high-end version - we'll just have to wait and see, I guess.
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post #7 of 118
1/12/13 at 7:51am
Is this the only product under $1000 with Airplay, Wifi, and multizone play? Seems Sony STR-DN 1030 is only one with WiFi and Airplay but it does not have multizone play. Denon AVR 1919 has multizone and Airplay but not Wifi (Ethernet only).
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post #8 of 118
1/12/13 at 11:59am
Adding WiFi to a "wired only" AVR is roughly a $50 additional cost ....http://www.amazon.com/TRENDnet-Wireless-4-Port-Bridge-TEW-640MB/dp/B004FMI3DA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1308997797&sr=8-1
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post #9 of 118
1/12/13 at 5:05pm
Thread Starter 
Considering a Denon 1913 is $500-600 I can pretty much say a HK 2700 will be a better deal when it will hit the street in a few weeks: logic says it will follow the usual HK street price drops (eg the 5.1ch AirPlay-enabled AVR 1700's MSRP is $499, stores selling it for $299 with Best Buy running a $199 promo since the holidays) so I expect the 2700 to be around $500 or less (and the 3700 to be $700 or so.)
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post #10 of 118
1/12/13 at 8:54pm
How does Harman's EZSet/EQ2 stack up with the likes of Audyssey XT/XT32 and Anthem's ARC?

If the 3700 does come in at $700, that is an amazing value considered what it comes with. Only thing is if the room correction is good or not.
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post #11 of 118
1/12/13 at 11:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by T2k View Post

Thanks for spotting them - I've corrected all + some others I've found in the manual (it seems web specs are indeed pretty much worthless.)
On page 36 "(Advanced Functions) under "Audio Effects Button/EZ Set/EQ" the manual says "EZ Set/EQ: This setting activates or deactivates the equalization settings obtained when the EzSet/EQ II process was run. The settings are saved for reactivation at a later listening session."

Now I know that everywhere else it's just EZ Set/EQ, without the II part but that could be also due to lousy writing... probably you're right, it's not the high-end version - we'll just have to wait and see, I guess.
That same mistake was in the 2650/3650 manuals as well, that section was copied from the 7550hd manual text. Typical for HK.... :d
We already know the 3700 is based directly off the 3650's platform, which means porting over the TI-DSP based ezset/eq II is not possible. Will have to wait and see how the 3700 will eq the subs. Anxious to find out if they are done as a single channel or independently (which could mean possibly a 'dumbed down' version of original ezset/eq2's low frequency eq - which would be great)
Quote:
Originally Posted by 04rex View Post

How does Harman's EZSet/EQ2 stack up with the likes of Audyssey XT/XT32 and Anthem's ARC? .
M code has made same great posts about the ezset/eq2 correction over the years, a lot of info the old HK avr 745 and 7550hd owner's threads.
Ezset/eq ii was developed in-house by JBL pro team which included Dr. Toole. Consists of both a near and far field eq designs+measurements, which allows the system to determine speaker performance independent of the room acoustics (near field) and with the room interaction (far field)
A big advantage ezseteq2 has or had was that rather than boosting holes and dips it would instead pull down the peaks for a smoother, flatter frequency response while allowing greater headroom for the dynamic range of the DSP.
has seen applications in their high end JBL synthesis line and also used on the lexicon rv5 receiver, besides the HK applications (e.g. Avr 745, 7550hd, HK 990)
This eq program requires significant DSP resources, necessitating dual TI DSPs in the AVRs - which is why it has only been seen on their higher end models ( same for full-process logic 7)

However the "high end" ezseteq2 is now several years old, the 745 was a 2006 model... How it compares to the competitor's newer systems I don't know.
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post #12 of 118
1/13/13 at 8:47pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dRockHK View Post

That same mistake was in the 2650/3650 manuals as well, that section was copied from the 7550hd manual text. Typical for HK.... :d

Possible, I take your word for it. smile.gif
Quote:
We already know the 3700 is based directly off the 3650's platform, which means porting over the TI-DSP based ezset/eq II is not possible.

While it's unlikely it's definitely not impossible - rewriting and recompiling a code between different platforms might be expensive in certain cases but it's definitely a regular solution.
Quote:
Will have to wait and see how the 3700 will eq the subs. Anxious to find out if they are done as a single channel or independently (which could mean possibly a 'dumbed down' version of original ezset/eq2's low frequency eq - which would be great)

What do you mean? HKs were already doing bass mgmt, back when others weren't doing it.

EDIT: oh, you meant how it will do it... never mind, got it. smile.gif
Edited by T2k - 1/13/13 at 9:13pm
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post #13 of 118
1/13/13 at 9:01pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 04rex View Post

How does Harman's EZSet/EQ2 stack up with the likes of Audyssey XT/XT32 and Anthem's ARC?

If the 3700 does come in at $700, that is an amazing value considered what it comes with. Only thing is if the room correction is good or not.

It worked for me (unlike their disastrously buggy first few HDMI implementations) - I'd even say my sub was way more balanced throughout the room (eg less deafening in corners I didn't put the mic during the measurement process) than it is with Audyssey MultEQ in my Denon 2309CI... it will do just fine, I'm sure.

As for XT32 I always figured it only make sense in large room...? I'm not sure, there are a lot of Audyssey experts here to answer this... cool.gif
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post #14 of 118
1/19/13 at 10:23pm
Thread Starter 
Harman advertises 30-day money back guarantee... well, I'm sure it will be painful once these units will arrive to the market in large numbers and people realize buying them direct from HK at MSRP was a stupid idea compared to online and B& store prices... smile.gif
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post #15 of 118
1/21/13 at 1:00pm
My top gripe - these are plastic boxes which is a bit disturbing when compared to the competition's quality metal chassis offerings. The class D amps are almost certainly borrowed from Crown and sound good, stay cool as they should. I picked up the lower-end AVR-1700 and played with it for a couple of weeks. Best Buy had it on sale for $199.95 (normally $499) - Imagine what the markup is on these suckers if they could afford to do that. I ended up returning it despite the fact it was such an amazing deal, I could have sold it on eBay for a profit. The 3700 has the features to be a decent player in the 7.2 market but housed in the same chassis - I could not stomach a grand for a plastic box. Besides, watch out because next thing you know Best Buy could be selling the 370 for $399 when you're not looking - of course at that price it would be a steal.
Edited by imagic - 1/21/13 at 2:10pm
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post #16 of 118
1/21/13 at 4:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

My top gripe - these are plastic boxes which is a bit disturbing when compared to the competition's quality metal chassis offerings. The class D amps are almost certainly borrowed from Crown and sound good, stay cool as they should. I picked up the lower-end AVR-1700 and played with it for a couple of weeks. Best Buy had it on sale for $199.95 (normally $499) - Imagine what the markup is on these suckers if they could afford to do that. I ended up returning it despite the fact it was such an amazing deal, I could have sold it on eBay for a profit. The 3700 has the features to be a decent player in the 7.2 market but housed in the same chassis - I could not stomach a grand for a plastic box. Besides, watch out because next thing you know Best Buy could be selling the 370 for $399 when you're not looking - of course at that price it would be a steal.

Correction..
Note that the 270/2700/370/3700 AVRs utilize class AB amplifiers not Class D as mentioned above....
The subject units' lighter weight is due to their SMPS (Switch Mode Power Supply), which provides global AC voltage compatibility and lower shipping costs...

Yes, the front panel is plastic, but the chassis, rear panel and top cover are metal..
Regarding actual factory cost, every unit sold @ $199 was a $ loss for HK...
The price discount was made to buy shelf space and move inventory...


Just my $0.02... wink.gif
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post #17 of 118
1/21/13 at 6:49pm
M Code is here biggrin.gif

A, I wonder if the 3700 will be available north of the border, I only see the 2700 so far. Maybe the 3700 will be later.

B. I wonder why EZSet/EQ II is not available anymore, or is it? This would be a game changer for me. I would have to put that on my short list for a new AVR this year

cheers
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post #18 of 118
1/21/13 at 7:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jproy13 View Post

M Code is here biggrin.gif

A, I wonder if the 3700 will be available north of the border, I only see the 2700 so far. Maybe the 3700 will be later.
Yup the 3700 is about 30 days behind the 2700, 1st production of 3700 has already been run.
Quote:
B. I wonder why EZSet/EQ II is not available anymore, or is it? This would be a game changer for me. I would have to put that on my short list for a new AVR this year
Requires a TI DSP, the mentioned AVRs use a Cirrus Logic DSP so they need to have the S/W ported over. No biggee, just takes time and $..

Just my $0.02... wink.gif
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post #19 of 118
1/22/13 at 10:36am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Correction..
Note that the 270/2700/370/3700 AVRs utilize class AB amplifiers not Class D as mentioned above....
The subject units' lighter weight is due to their SMPS (Switch Mode Power Supply), which provides global AC voltage compatibility and lower shipping costs...

Yes, the front panel is plastic, but the chassis, rear panel and top cover are metal..
Regarding actual factory cost, every unit sold @ $199 was a $ loss for HK...
The price discount was made to buy shelf space and move inventory...


Just my $0.02... wink.gif

Nice - am I right when I remembering class AB being better performing/quality than class D but having far worse efficiency?
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post #20 of 118
1/22/13 at 11:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by T2k View Post

Nice - am I right when I remembering class AB being better performing/quality than class D but having far worse efficiency?

Early Class D solutions had multiple, negative audible byproducts...
However now some later Class D generations can/do sound quite good...
Certain Class D solutions have analog input stages with feedback loops with the power supply to minimize dead-time..

IMHO.. cool.gif
Eventually, the audio, home theater market will accept/endorse Class D solutions beyond the just the mass-market all-in-1 products, and today they are the standard in high-powered, home subwoofers and 12V OE & aftermarket applications..

Just my $0.02... wink.gif
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post #21 of 118
1/22/13 at 3:33pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Yup the 3700 is about 30 days behind the 2700, 1st production of 3700 has already been run.

Do you have info about shipping dates?
Quote:
Requires a TI DSP, the mentioned AVRs use a Cirrus Logic DSP so they need to have the S/W ported over. No biggee, just takes time and $..

Just my $0.02... wink.gif

Yeah, that's what I was saying, it's just the question of resources... since it hasn't happened yet, they won't be releasing it for older platforms IF it ever happens, right?
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post #22 of 118
1/22/13 at 3:35pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Early Class D solutions had multiple, negative audible byproducts...
However now some later Class D generations can/do sound quite good...
Certain Class D solutions have analog input stages with feedback loops with the power supply to minimize dead-time..

IMHO.. cool.gif
Eventually, the audio, home theater market will accept/endorse Class D solutions beyond the just the mass-market all-in-1 products, and today they are the standard in high-powered, home subwoofers and 12V OE & aftermarket applications..

Just my $0.02... wink.gif

Right, class D is far better today, obviously, I recognize that - but would you say class AB still has an edge...? Or it's gone/not noticeable/only on high-end speakers etc...?
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post #23 of 118
1/22/13 at 4:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by T2k View Post

Right, class D is far better today, obviously, I recognize that - but would you say class AB still has an edge...? Or it's gone/not noticeable/only on high-end speakers etc...?

To my ears, certain latest Class D solutions do match the better Class AB ones...
However, today audio for AVRs is still sold by bulk and weight rather than sonics so there exists the perception traditional Class AB amplifiers are better.. rolleyes.gif
What I do concede is that the small satellite loudspeakers have a major challenge to better, a quality full-range loudspeaker..
So size still matters at least for loudspeakers..

Today a large % of the market are listening to MP3s and iPods and soundbars...
And accepting this as good sounding audio, if they listened to a kick butt audio component system then perhaps they would have a different opinion..tongue.gif
Since there are very few audio specialists around today, few are exposed to this demo... eek.gif

Just my $0.02... wink.gif
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post #24 of 118
1/22/13 at 4:20pm
I am VERY interested in a 3700. My fantasy though is a 4700 model with DTS neo:X processing.
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post #25 of 118
1/22/13 at 4:53pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by awblackmon View Post

I am VERY interested in a 3700. My fantasy though is a 4700 model with DTS neo:X processing.

These are 7-ch units with Dolby PL IIz Front Heights so I'm not sure how much DTS Neo:X would add, not to mention the added cost... I've yet to really hear the difference (so far only tried over someone else's living room, wasn't too impressed) - it seems people are also ambiguous when it comes to their impressions: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1371863/front-height-experiences-yamaha-presence-audyssey-dsx-dolby-iiz-dts-neo-x
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post #26 of 118
1/23/13 at 8:09am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

To my ears, certain latest Class D solutions do match the better Class AB ones...
However, today audio for AVRs is still sold by bulk and weight rather than sonics so there exists the perception traditional Class AB amplifiers are better.. rolleyes.gif
What I do concede is that the small satellite loudspeakers have a major challenge to better, a quality full-range loudspeaker..
So size still matters at least for loudspeakers..

Yeah, it's funny that weight does not necessary correlate quality anymore, see this unit where you just confirmed it's class AB but it's a lot lighter due to its SMPS. cool.gif
Quote:
Today a large % of the market are listening to MP3s and iPods and soundbars...
And accepting this as good sounding audio, if they listened to a kick butt audio component system then perhaps they would have a different opinion..tongue.gif
Since there are very few audio specialists around today, few are exposed to this demo... eek.gif

Just my $0.02... wink.gif

I agree. My entire CD/vinyl/cassette collection was digitized in FLAC which, while it's probably not an exact match of the originals and makes the loot considerably larger (~250GB or so, at least 3x bigger than CBR 320k MP3s would be), makes a very obvious audible difference even on my not-so-expensive Infinity setup when I compare it to Amazon's 256k MP3s (they have just introduced AutoRip and retroactively added almost ALL my physical CD purchases since ~2006 to my Cloud Player Premium locker in MP3.eek.gifbiggrin.gif)
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post #27 of 118
1/23/13 at 1:53pm
Anyone want to take a stab at when the 2700 will be available outside of the HK site at "street" pricing?
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post #28 of 118
1/23/13 at 7:06pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DingoDog226 View Post

Anyone want to take a stab at when the 2700 will be available outside of the HK site at "street" pricing?

They are not famous for quick rollouts so I'd say late February...?
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post #29 of 118
1/25/13 at 12:17pm
Thread Starter 
I have a question, people using Front Heights: beside ProLogic IIz can you use other matrixing like Logic 7 with Front Heights for music? I understand for movies PLIIz should be the best w/ FH but what about music etc?
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post #30 of 118
1/28/13 at 10:38am
Thread Starter 
J&R now list them at MSRP, with "Coming soon"...
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