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New Camcorders unveiled at CES 2013

post #1 of 107
Thread Starter 
Panasonic Reveals Five New Camcorders, Including 3MOS HC-X920
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/News/Panasonic-Reveals-Five-New-Camcorders-Including-3MOS-HC-X920.htm

Canon Unveils New and Improved Entry-Level Camcorders; Provides Minor Updates to Flagship G20
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/News/Canon-Completely-Revamps-Entry-Level-Vixias.htm

____________________________________________________________

Panasonic has a new feature called "level shot". The HC-X920 body looks similar to last year's X900M. I wonder if this one has a fan(?)

Canon's new flagship camcorder is th HF G20 which, according to Camcorderinfo, is a minor upgrade and still no 60p! They don't mention it in the article, but hopefully they at least bumped up the bit rate.

There are updates to the Canon R series camcorders, but apparently there won't be any updates to the HF M5xx series from last year.
Edited by xfws - 1/7/13 at 2:31pm
post #2 of 107
"The three HF R models contain a vast array of new features: they’re the first Canon VIxia models to offer AVCHD progressive recording, which enables the three camcorders to shoot 1080/60p video, and they each have the ability to use MP4 compression as well, recording at bitrates of up to 35Mbps." -- What gives?! The G20 should have 35 Mbit/s mode, not the lowly R models. Canon has it all backwards. I wonder what is "MP4 compression". If it is MPEG-2, then this means Canon now offers XDCAM EX. If it is AVC, even better, though my aging computer might not be able to handle it. At least the price for the G20 is now whopping $400 lower.

As for the HC-X920, I wonder whether it finally has got native 24p, or Panasonic have got rid of 24p altogether.
post #3 of 107
Thread Starter 
EDIT: It's true:
http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/products/camcorders/consumer_camcorders/vixia_hf_g20#Specifications

"NTSC:
AVCHD: 60i/PF30
MP4: 24P/30P"

"MXP (1920 x 1080) 2 hours 55 minutes"

Which is the same recording time/bitrate as the HF G10, so 24mbps max.

I almost picked up a refurbished HF G10 during the recent sale, but had my reservations about a 24mbps limit into the future.

Perhaps they are making more money on DSLR's for video and are losing focus on camcorders.
Edited by xfws - 1/7/13 at 3:26pm
post #4 of 107
Perhaps Canon (and Panasonic for that matter) think that dedicated camcorders will die soon, replaced with video-enabled still cameras. Thus they don't create new camcorders. The HV30 and HV40 received very minor updates compared to the HV20 (at least they got PF30 and then native 24p), then Canon produced the HV40 for two.. or three? years without changes. Then HDV died.
post #5 of 107
I agree that the CES 2013 camcorder announcements are disappointing. I was hoping for a consumer 4k camera from Sony but that may come later in the month. The HC-X920 has a new BSI sensor and image stabilization system, so I don't think that Panasonic has given up on the consumer camcorder market. (The HC-X920 looks like the consumer version of the AG-AC90.) For Canon, the big change is that the HF G20 is significantly less expensive than the HF G10 it replaces. So maybe the HG G10 is still selling well so they're just lowering the price, giving it a new model number and hoping that the party will continue?
post #6 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by hatchback View Post

The HC-X920 looks like the consumer version of the AG-AC90.
The AC90 has 1/4.7-inch sensor, I assume the X920 has a larger 1/4.1-inch sensor like the older models.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hatchback View Post

For Canon, the big change is that the HF G20 is significantly less expensive than the HF G10 it replaces. So maybe the HG G10 is still selling well so they're just lowering the price, giving it a new model number and hoping that the party will continue?
This strategy worked for Canon with the HV series, did not it? Lots of pros want a small camcorder that handles all the regular formats well, and 1080p60 is not what they worry about. Although 35 Mbit/s XDCAM EX would raise the G20 on the different level.

As much as I hate the JVC HM100 for its crappy image stabilizer, it was the first camera to move into better, more professional codec while keeping small size and reasonable price. JVC set the trend. Canon had an opportunity to compete and did not grab it. I don't think that adding 35 Mbit/s mode to the G20 would have undermined the XF100 position, since the latter has much juicier 50 Mbit/s mode.

Maybe the updated XA10 (will it be called XA20?) will have 35 Mbit/s mode? Divide et impera.
post #7 of 107
As we know, it shouldn't be surprising at all that companies will want to limit features. The X920 gains BSI chips which is similar technology to the chips that are in the AC90 but it wouldn't surprise me if the 24p is within a 60i stream but at least I'd hope Panasonic sees the lights and given it 24p. We'll see. Yes, same with Canon not wanting the G20 to have 1080 60p. Now that's funny putting 1080 60p into much lower class camcorders. I think It might be because they want to protect the sales of the XF100 sort of like Panasonic wanting to protect the sales of the AC90. Now if Canon was releasing a successor to the XF100 with 1080 60p at NAB then that would have been a different story unless they are doing that anyway and want 1080 60p to be a buying feature. Hopefully Sony comes in with a brutal attack and adds fully manual features. Heck, a 4K x 2K consumer camcorder out of Sony would be sweet. They already have a camcorder sized 4K (maybe 1/2.3"? I can't remember at the top of my head) chip that they announced a while back. Back to Canon, lest not forget that a while back, they showed off a concept 4K x 2K 60p camera with a 2/3" chip. After all the money they probably spent on development, I don't think they would have scrapped that idea because of DSLR's. Perhaps they wouldn't have problems fitting that technology in an XF100 sized body?. Not everybody is obsessed with only extra large chips or the new Black Magic Cinema Camera wouldn't be wanted by a lot of people and the chip is slightly smaller than 4/3rds. Just like people still want ultra clean and nearly defect free images when shooting when theirs plenty of light.
post #8 of 107
Here's the lens specs of the X900:
F1.5 (WIDE) / F2.8 (TELE)
Optical Zoom 12 x
Focal Length 2.84 - 34.1 mm
35 mm Film Camera Equivalent
Motion Image 29.8 - 368.8 mm [16:9]
Still Image 29.8 - 357.7 mm [3:2], / 29.8 - 368.8 mm
http://shop.panasonic.com/shop/model/HC-X900M?t=specs

Now here's the lens specs for the AC90:
F1.5 to F2.8 (Focal length; 2.84 mm to 34.1 mm)
35 mm equivalent:
Motion picture/Still picture; 29.8 mm to 388.8 mm (16:9)
http://www.panasonic.com/business/provideo/AG-AC90.asp

Very similar lens specs in my opinion. If the size of the effective video portion of the chip was very different then wouldn't the lens specs supposed to be very different as well?

I read a post on DVXuser saying that a European Panasonic rep have claimed that Panasonic wasn't using the same kind of size specifications in their literature for the AC90 compared to their consumer camcorder. I also saw conflicting pixel specs from one Panasonic site to another.

Oh, now here's the lens specs of the X920:
F Value F1.5 (WIDE) / F2.8 (TELE)
Optical Zoom 12 x
Focal Length 2.84 - 34.1 mm
Motion Image 29.8 - 399.2 mm [16:9]
35mm equivalent
29.8-399.2
http://www.panasonic.co.uk/html/en_GB/Products/Camcorders/New+Camcorders/HC-X920/Specification/11053351/index.html;jsessionid=0a6d28ea30d72c0d0fb33abc46aca3e78c1e21648805.e38NaNuNc34Qbi0Lb34MaNmQbhyOe6fznA5Pp7ftolbGmkTy?trackInfo=true
Edited by Paulo Teixeira - 1/7/13 at 9:19pm
post #9 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by xfws View Post

Panasonic Reveals Five New Camcorders, Including 3MOS HC-X920
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/News/Panasonic-Reveals-Five-New-Camcorders-Including-3MOS-HC-X920.htm
Canon Unveils New and Improved Entry-Level Camcorders; Provides Minor Updates to Flagship G20
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/News/Canon-Completely-Revamps-Entry-Level-Vixias.htm
____________________________________________________________
Panasonic has a new feature called "level shot". The HC-X920 body looks similar to last year's X900M. I wonder if this one has a fan(?)
Canon's new flagship camcorder is th HF G20 which, according to Camcorderinfo, is a minor upgrade and still no 60p! They don't mention it in the article, but hopefully they at least bumped up the bit rate.
There are updates to the Canon R series camcorders, but apparently there won't be any updates to the HF M5xx series from last year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

"The three HF R models contain a vast array of new features: they’re the first Canon VIxia models to offer AVCHD progressive recording, which enables the three camcorders to shoot 1080/60p video, and they each have the ability to use MP4 compression as well, recording at bitrates of up to 35Mbps." -- What gives?! The G20 should have 35 Mbit/s mode, not the lowly R models. Canon has it all backwards. I wonder what is "MP4 compression". If it is MPEG-2, then this means Canon now offers XDCAM EX. If it is AVC, even better, though my aging computer might not be able to handle it. At least the price for the G20 is now whopping $400 lower.
As for the HC-X920, I wonder whether it finally has got native 24p, or Panasonic have got rid of 24p altogether.


After all this time Canon does not give us 60p on the HF G20. Come on Canon, take care of your loyal supporters who have been buying your upper end consumer cams.
I do like the look of the new lens hood, gives it a tougher look.wink.gif
post #10 of 107
Speaking of Sony already having smaller 4K chips, look what I just saw:
http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/07/sonys-4k-handycam-and-hxr-ifr5-4k-interface-unit-prototypes-eye/
I guess Sony doesn't want JVC to have all the fun for having the only current 4K x 2K prosumor camcorder in the market.
post #11 of 107
Good find! Unfortunately it's just a "prototype device", ie., a marketing trick rather than an actual product intended for sale. Well maybe next year...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulo Teixeira View Post

Speaking of Sony already having smaller 4K chips, look what I just saw:
http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/07/sonys-4k-handycam-and-hxr-ifr5-4k-interface-unit-prototypes-eye/
I guess Sony doesn't want JVC to have all the fun for having the only current 4K x 2K prosumor camcorder in the market.
post #12 of 107
We'll with Sony already having smaller 4K capable chips, I wouldn't be surprised at all for Sony to show off a working unit at NAB and hooked up to a 4K TV and perhaps even releasing it this year. I obviously don't have any inside knowledge so I'm just guessing.

Here's a PDF that Sony released months ago talking about their smaller 4K chip technlogy. You never know if the specs have changed but at least it'll give us an idea on what it's capable of.
http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/cx_news/vol69/pdf/imx144cqj.pdf


Here's the new top range JVC camcorder.
http://newsroom.jvc.com/press-releases/camcorder/new-flagship-jvc-camera-designed-to-capture-fast-moving-action/
Edited by Paulo Teixeira - 1/8/13 at 4:58pm
post #13 of 107
"JVCKENWOOD Corporation" -- what a horrible name made of two good ones!

60p and the ring is good development, but what about 24p? Not everyone is abandoning it. I read some Hobbit reviews, and people say that 48 fps look like soap opera. Hyper real, also because motion blur is almost non-existent. So, 24p is not dead yet.
post #14 of 107
On paper that JVC GC-PX100 looks good, better than anything we've seen from Panasonic, Canon, or Sony so far. With a large 1/2.3" BSI sensor and fast f1.2 lens, it could become the new low-light king of the consumer camcorder market. Plus 1080p60 at 36Mbps and high-speed frame rates from 120fps to 600fps won't hurt either. On the other side,it has nearly the same specs as the poorly received JVC GC-PX10, but with a significantly faster lens. Only time will tell.
Edited by hatchback - 1/8/13 at 6:52pm
post #15 of 107
post #16 of 107
Thread Starter 

Looks like a robot. Technically, it probably is one. :\
post #17 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by xfws View Post

Looks like a robot. Technically, it probably is one. :\

i don't like the new non removable bulky speaker.... looks like a sony vg series....
post #18 of 107
post #19 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyker1212 View Post

i don't like the new non removable bulky speaker.... looks like a sony vg series....

That is not a speaker, but the microphone. The only upgrade from last year's top of the line model is the audio - now there is a new audio system (electronics), the new mic, and, most importantly, manual control of audio. Why it took so many years for Sony to finally permit manual audio in their camcorders...

Otherwise the new model is identical to the current CX760V and PJ760V.
post #20 of 107
The microphone on the Sony looks very interesting. It could have pretty good sound quality, along with the manual sound controls. You can also add wi-fi to the new Sony? Can that be done with last years model?
post #21 of 107
Concerning the X920, perhaps I must have somehow skipped this particular info while reading the specs but can anyone show me where it talks about the 24p mode? That's to see what kind it is rather native 24p or within a 60i stream.

Here's where they advertise the X920
http://panasonic.net/avc/camcorder/hd/x920/

For this link, they haven't put the specs in it yet.
http://shop.panasonic.com/shop/model/HC-X920K

Maybe I carelessly missed it somehow but if Panasonic didn't reveal the 24p specs yet than I wonder why not.


OK, while I'm at it, here's another new camera.
http://panasonic.net/avc/camcorder/active/product/hxa100/
Basically a wearable camera for $300 that can shoot in 1080 60p or 720 120 for slow motion purposes.
Edited by Paulo Teixeira - 1/9/13 at 4:24pm
post #22 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulo Teixeira View Post


OK, while I'm at it, here's another new camera.
http://panasonic.net/avc/camcorder/active/product/hxa100/
Basically a wearable camera for $300 that can shoot in 1080 60p or 720 120 for slow motion purposes.

i hope next version will have a removable battery... then i will buy.
post #23 of 107
The only sure way to find out is to locate Operation Instructions and find any reference to "Digital Cinema Mode". On the other hand, if I remember correctly, Panasonic does not make distinction between native 24p and telecined one.
post #24 of 107
So, according to the specs on Panasonic's website, one would think that "1/2.3" BSI MOS Sensor x 3" suggests that the size of each individual sensor is 1/2.3

Very interesting...
post #25 of 107
In the Panasonic.net site, it revels the type of 24p mode that is in the X900
"The video captured as 24p using Digital Cinema Mode is converted and recorded as 60i."
Unfortunately for the X920, it seams like theirs no reference at all on the Panasonic.net version. It's too bad that they still have yet to update the shop.panasonic.com site. Yes an online manual is another way to find it once it pops up. We'll find out eventually.
post #26 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by T.Huntley View Post

So, according to the specs on Panasonic's website, one would think that "1/2.3" BSI MOS Sensor x 3" suggests that the size of each individual sensor is 1/2.3

Very interesting...
We'll one things for sure is that the lens specifications for the X900, AC90 an now the X920 are all similar like I mentioned in an earlier post.

Anyway, I did read that a while back. Somebody needs to tell Panasonic that they need to explain to people how they are measuring their chip specifications. What happened to the AC90 should have been a warning.
Edited by Paulo Teixeira - 1/9/13 at 7:22pm
post #27 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by tingham View Post

The microphone on the Sony looks very interesting. It could have pretty good sound quality, along with the manual sound controls. You can also add wi-fi to the new Sony? Can that be done with last years model?

The PJ780V also adds Sony's new Multi Interface Shoe - which accepts standard cold-shoe mounted accessories. With full manual audio control and a standard cold shoe, they have removed the most glaringly stupid limitations of their previous flagship models. For those who are interested, they're taking pre-orders at the Sony Store.

Bill
post #28 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by hatchback View Post

On paper that JVC GC-PX100 looks good, better than anything we've seen from Panasonic, Canon, or Sony so far. With a large 1/2.3" BSI sensor and fast f1.2 lens, it could become the new low-light king of the consumer camcorder market. Plus 1080p60 at 36Mbps and high-speed frame rates from 120fps to 600fps won't hurt either. On the other side,it has nearly the same specs as the poorly received JVC GC-PX10, but with a significantly faster lens. Only time will tell.

I wasn't interested in any of the new CES camcorders until I saw this pic of the PX100:


Courtesy Videomaker

I really like the "DSLR look" and the feature-set of this camera:
  • 1080/60p at 36mbps
  • 10x f1.2 max aperture servo zoom
  • 12MP stills at 9fps
  • Articulated LCD and an optional EVF
  • Multiple codecs (AVCHD, MP4, MOV)
  • Wi-fi with iOS/Android phone/tablet monitoring
  • Time lapse intervalometer

This camera meets all of my requirements except weathersealing, XLR inputs and depth of field control (although the f1.2 max aperture offers some interesting shallow DOF possibilities).

And the $1000 price is reasonable, when measured against the competition. Without the viewfinder, the PX100 is $300 less than a body-only GH3 and only $450 more than the FZ200 bridge camera.

This could be both a "video DSLR killer" and a "high-end superzoom killer".

If the image quality is competitive with the $1200 X920, $1600 PJ780V and/or $1100 HF G20, it could be a "flagship camcorder killer" too.

Cheers,

Bill
Edited by brunerww - 1/10/13 at 4:27am
post #29 of 107
I do not see how the PX100 features differ that much from those of the Panasonic X920:

"I really like the "DSLR look" and the feature-set of this camera (PX100):
•1080/60p at 36mbps
•10x f1.2 max aperture servo zoom
•12MP stills at 9fps
•Articulated LCD and an optional EVF
•Multiple codecs (AVCHD, MP4, MOV)
•Wi-fi with iOS/Android phone/tablet monitoring
•Time lapse intervalometer"

This is the set for the Panasonic X920:

108060p at 28Mbps
12X f1.5 lens
Articulated LCD and *included* EVF
Multiple codecs
Wi-fi with iOS/Android phone/tablet monitoring
Time lapse intervalometer

I skipped the stills as being irrelevant (no way these are any good on either camera). And I have seen no evidence that incerasing the bitrate in AVCHD above 28Mbps makes a significant difference.

The Panasonic is a three-chipper; it's color should be better. It also has BSI sensors.

I do not see this thing as killing anything, unless its performance is actually better, but certainly not on feature set.

So, it seems you just get a better "look" with the PX. I did think the high frame-rate modes was the claim to fame of the PX100, but you do not list those (no one seems to know what the resolution is for those).
Edited by markr041 - 1/10/13 at 11:55am
post #30 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

I do not see how the PX100 features differ that much from those of the Panasonic X920:

"I really like the "DSLR look" and the feature-set of this camera (PX100):
•1080/60p at 36mbps
•10x f1.2 max aperture servo zoom
•12MP stills at 9fps
•Articulated LCD and an optional EVF
•Multiple codecs (AVCHD, MP4, MOV)
•Wi-fi with iOS/Android phone/tablet monitoring
•Time lapse intervalometer"

This is the set for the Panasonic X920:

108060p at 28Mbps
12X f1.5 lens
Articulated LCD and *included* EVF
Multiple codecs
Wi-fi with iOS/Android phone/tablet monitoring
Time lapse intervalometer

I skipped the stills as being irrelvant (no way these are any good on either camera).

The Panasonic is a three-chipper; it's color should be better. It also has BSI sensors.

I do not see this thing as killing anything, unless its performance is actually better, but certainly not on feature set.

So, it seems you just get a better "look" with the PX. I did think the high frame-rate modes was the claim to fame of the PX100, but you do not list those (no one seems to know what the resolution is for those).

Thanks, Mark - Yes, you got it exactly right - I left high frame rates off the features list, because we don't know what the resolution will be (even though the press release says "Full-HD slow motion video").

But the "look" issue is more than cosmetic for me - it is ergonomic as well. I really don't like the narrow little control ring on the 900 series lens (especially when I put a lens hood or matte box on it) - and I am not fond of the tiny little telescoping viewfinder mechanism. either.

I like that the PX100 appears to have a real viewfinder (we'll see) and a real lens with a real focus ring (again, we'll see).

If the IQ and low light sensitivity come close, I will sell the TM900 and get one of these.

I had been considering trading up to the AC90 to get a real lens and viewfinder - but $2000 is a lot of money (especially after springing for the GH3).

And, hey, what's wrong with my TM900's stills? smile.gif



Cheers,

Bill
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