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New Camcorders unveiled at CES 2013 - Page 2

post #31 of 107
The new Sony projector cams have HDMI inputs. So you can basically plug any hdmi device into them and project that devices hdmi output thru the cam's projector. Pretty cool....
post #32 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by tingham View Post

The new Sony projector cams have HDMI inputs. So you can basically plug any hdmi device into them and project that devices hdmi output thru the cam's projector. Pretty cool....

can it record the video of hdmi input? thanks in advance
post #33 of 107
This is literally a 4K ( most-likely 3840x2160p) version of the Panasonic AC90.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi2vrI8zlKQ

This year's NAB (April 6 - 11) is definitely going to be interesting.
Edited by Paulo Teixeira - 1/10/13 at 11:21pm
post #34 of 107
On paper the JVC GC-PX100 has a 1/2.3" sensor and an f1.2 lens, whereas the Panasonic X920 has a 1/4.7" sensor and an f1.5 lens. So the JVC sensor has 4 times the surface area and the JVC lens can capture 1.5 times as much light. Together that means the JVC can potentially capture 6 times as much light. It's not a perfect comparison because the JVC has a color filter whereas the Panasonic has a prism, but it shows that the JVC does have the potential to "kill" the Panasonic in low light performance and in slow-motion. But that's just on paper, the reality could well be different, given that the PX100's predecessor wasn't very good.

[quote name="markr041" url="/t/1450299/new-camcorders-unveiled-at-ces-2013#post_22810901"
I do not see this thing as killing anything, unless its performance is actually better, but certainly not on feature set.
.[/quote]
Edited by hatchback - 1/10/13 at 11:44pm
post #35 of 107
Another good find, Paulo! It looks like Panasonic is ahead of Sony in the 4k prosumer camcorder race.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulo Teixeira View Post

This is literally a 4K ( most-likely 3840x2160p) version of the Panasonic AC90.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi2vrI8zlKQ

This year's NAB (April 6 - 11) is definitely going to be interesting.
post #36 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by hatchback View Post

On paper the JVC GC-PX100 has a 1/2.3" sensor and an f1.2 lens, whereas the Panasonic X920 has a 1/4.7" sensor and an f1.5 lens. So the JVC sensor has 4 times the surface area and the JVC lens can capture 1.5 times as much light. Together that means the JVC can potentially capture 6 times as much light. It's not a perfect comparison because the JVC has a color filter whereas the Panasonic has a prism, but it shows that the JVC does have the potential to "kill" the Panasonic in low light performance and in slow-motion. But that's just on paper, the reality could well be different, given that the PX100's predecessor wasn't very good.

[quote name="markr041" url="/t/1450299/new-camcorders-unveiled-at-ces-2013#post_22810901"
I do not see this thing as killing anything, unless its performance is actually better, but certainly not on feature set.
.
[/quote]

The previous 2 top end JVC consumer camcorders featured a massive BSI sensor with 1.2 lens - they were terrible in low light. So I wouldn't make any assumptions until you see some actual footage. Although i DO agree, on paper it looks very tasty
post #37 of 107
Is it just me, or is the increase in low light performance extremely minimal? I was expecting a much bigger difference in sensitivity

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ei2Sa6v02LU
post #38 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by T.Huntley View Post

...The previous 2 top end JVC consumer camcorders featured a massive BSI sensor with 1.2 lens - they were terrible in low light. So I wouldn't make any assumptions until you see some actual footage...

I agree - that's why I said, "If the IQ and low light sensitivity come close, I will sell the TM900 and get one of these..." smile.gif

Cheers,

Bill
post #39 of 107
I am sorry, but the statement below misses a most important point: the Panasonic has *THREE* sensors, not just one.

"On paper the JVC GC-PX100 has a 1/2.3" sensor and an f1.2 lens, whereas the Panasonic X920 has a 1/4.7" sensor and an f1.5 lens. So the JVC sensor has 4 times the surface area and the JVC lens can capture 1.5 times as much ."light.

Thee 1/4.7" sensors: 3CMOS. On paper, of course...
post #40 of 107
Having 3 sensors does not materially increase the amount of light the camera can capture, because the light is split 3 ways by the prism, so each sensor receives a fraction of the incoming light.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

I am sorry, but the statement below misses a most important point: the Panasonic has *THREE* sensors, not just one.

"On paper the JVC GC-PX100 has a 1/2.3" sensor and an f1.2 lens, whereas the Panasonic X920 has a 1/4.7" sensor and an f1.5 lens. So the JVC sensor has 4 times the surface area and the JVC lens can capture 1.5 times as much ."light.

Thee 1/4.7" sensors: 3CMOS. On paper, of course...
post #41 of 107
Which previous JVC camcorders had a massive BSI sensor with f1.2 lens?
Quote:
Originally Posted by T.Huntley View Post

The previous 2 top end JVC consumer camcorders featured a massive BSI sensor with 1.2 lens - they were terrible in low light. So I wouldn't make any assumptions until you see some actual footage. Although i DO agree, on paper it looks very tasty
post #42 of 107
Just saw this posted on dvxuser - apparently the X920M may have 3 1/2.3" sensors rather than 3 1/4.7" sensors like the AC90, or 3 1/4.1" sensors like the X900. It could well be a typo, but if not, that would likely provide a significant improvement in low light performance.

Official X920M specifications show 3 1/2.3" sensors: http://panasonic.net/avc/camcorder/hd/x920/specifications.html
Official X900M specifications from same site show 3 1/4.1" sensors: http://panasonic.net/avc/camcorder/hd/x900_series/specifications.html

P.S. The official Panasonic video for the X920M says "With new 3MOS System Pro with larger sensor and greater pixel count images become crystal clear in every details." So maybe not a typo!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ei2Sa6v02LU
Edited by hatchback - 1/11/13 at 7:50am
post #43 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by T.Huntley View Post

Is it just me, or is the increase in low light performance extremely minimal? I was expecting a much bigger difference in sensitivity

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ei2Sa6v02LU

I didn't see a whole lot either. A bit richer color (more saturated?), but about the same amount of light captured.
post #44 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by hatchback View Post

Just saw this posted on dvxuser - apparently the X920M may have 3 1/2.3" sensors rather than 3 1/4.7" sensors like the AC90, or 3 1/4.1" sensors like the X900. It could well be a typo, but if not, that would likely provide a significant improvement in low light performance.
I will be extremely surprised if it had three 1/2.3" sensors. One sensor of this size - this I can believe in. But not three. Not in a palmcorder. If, by any freak of engineering, it indeed does have this setup, it will be my next camcorder.

Or maybe not. I might wait for 35 Mbit/s 4:2:2, does not matter whether it will be MPEG-2 or AVC.
post #45 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

I will be extremely surprised if it had three 1/2.3" sensors. One sensor of this size - this I can believe in. But not three. Not in a palmcorder. If, by any freak of engineering, it indeed does have this setup, it will be my next camcorder.

Or maybe not. I might wait for 35 Mbit/s 4:2:2, does not matter whether it will be MPEG-2 or AVC.

Can be a typo but that's what the Panasonic site says:

http://panasonic.net/avc/camcorder/hd/x920/specifications.html
post #46 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by slimoli View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

I will be extremely surprised if it had three 1/2.3" sensors. One sensor of this size - this I can believe in. But not three. Not in a palmcorder. If, by any freak of engineering, it indeed does have this setup, it will be my next camcorder.

Or maybe not. I might wait for 35 Mbit/s 4:2:2, does not matter whether it will be MPEG-2 or AVC.

Can be a typo but that's what the Panasonic site says:

http://panasonic.net/avc/camcorder/hd/x920/specifications.html
Well, maybe this is indeed true. But it seems that it does not have 24p mode. Usually when it has 24p mode, they specify it in Shutter Speed section, because in 24p shutter speed can drop up to 1/24. They say nothing about it, only 1/60 for 30i/60p and 1/30 for 30p. Too bad if they removed 24p option altogether, even in crappy telecined variant they used to offer.
post #47 of 107
Yes it almost seams like Panasonic might have scrapped 24p.
Edited by Paulo Teixeira - 1/11/13 at 1:29pm
post #48 of 107
Hi
Quote:
Originally Posted by T.Huntley View Post

Is it just me, or is the increase in low light performance extremely minimal? I was expecting a much bigger difference in sensitivity

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ei2Sa6v02LU

The problem is YouTube's compression removes a lot of detail and the noise along with it, so it is very hard to judge the differences between the two as they are essentially both brought down to the same quality level.

Regards

Phil
post #49 of 107
Hi
Quote:
Originally Posted by slimoli View Post

Can be a typo but that's what the Panasonic site says:

http://panasonic.net/avc/camcorder/hd/x920/specifications.html

Indeed Panasonic are saying it is a 2.3" sensor by 3, along with a PR video showing three sensors in the graphics. Someone else suggested it is just one 2.3" sensor set vertically and split into 3, i.e. the picture is split into red/green and blue by dielectric mirrors onto 3 distinct areas of the chip, however this would be little improvement on using a single MOS chip of the same size with a filter so seems unlikely, and would be rather dishonest of Panasonic and false advertising.

Time will tell if the camcorder is an improvement over the predecessors.

Unfortunately there has been little R&D into the LSI which is still the same rather hot running bit of silicon as previous models so we still have the dreaded fan, and probably a reason for not providing extra higher bit rates to produce better quality MP4s.

I doubt anything will be really bettered by Panasonic on these camcorders now with all work and R&D going into 4K.

Regards

Phil
post #50 of 107
If it is that size for each chip, than it's only a tiny portion of the chips being used for video. The size of the video portion on the chips for the X900, the AC90 and X920 should be at least almost the same since the lens specs are about the same.


Like I posted in DVinfo, Panasonic's marketing is showing 3 individual chips and it's true that the marketing have gone way too far this time if it was just 1 chip.
http://panasonic.net/avc/camcorder/features/3mos/

I think one of the biggest differences of the chips is the use of BSI and people can easily be mislead just looking at the chip size without also looking at the lens specifications and the video portion of the chips. It's also Panasonic's fault if they decided to use different ways to measure the chips and then to not explain to people afterwards.
Edited by Paulo Teixeira - 1/11/13 at 7:48pm
post #51 of 107
Paulo, I think you're right. It's very difficult to imagine that Panasonic could insert 3 sensors that each have 4 times the area of the sensors in the X900 and still keep the same lens as the X900. More likely it is a poorly conceived marketing trick that will result in a class action lawsuit against Panasonic. Oh well, I guess won't be submitting a preorder.
post #52 of 107
Actually, the total chip size might be accurate and a poster on DVXuser last month alleged that Panasonic said that the chips in the AC90 are actually 1/2.3" but only a smaller portion is being used for video. This been going on for a while though with other camcorders but it was never that big of a difference for 3 chip ones at least in the marketing material. Panasonic is obviously spending time developing 4K video capable chips and are probably using those for those 2 camcorders but at the same time, just a smaller portion is used which can explain why everything else seams about the same.
post #53 of 107
I find it hard to believe that Panasonic would fab chips that are 4 times larger (and hence more than 4 times as expensive) than they need to be.
post #54 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by T.Huntley View Post

Is it just me, or is the increase in low light performance extremely minimal? I was expecting a much bigger difference in sensitivity

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ei2Sa6v02LU

Color & contrast seemed significantly better in the 920. Looks like a very worthwhile improvement.
post #55 of 107
ZTE Nubia Z7 smartphone with 16MP and 1440p@60fps recording on a 6.3" 2560x1440 display !
http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/422982/20130111/zte-nubia-z7-powerful-smartphone.htm#.UPG2ZpDTlaQ
post #56 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

I will be extremely surprised if it had three 1/2.3" sensors. One sensor of this size - this I can believe in. But not three. Not in a palmcorder. If, by any freak of engineering, it indeed does have this setup, it will be my next camcorder.

Might have to agree, but I can't see how they could have crammed 3, nearly 1/2" chips into a body that small. I will say the footage, in general, was quite impressive. If you read the verbiage, they did reference 'larger chips', so who knows? But 3 nearly 1/2" chips, got to see that to believe it.
post #57 of 107
Panasonic is allegedly doing something similar to the V720 in which a smaller portion of the chip is used for the video. As for the X920, 3 chips that big might actually be possibly by looking at how at the graphic of the chip layout. http://panasonic.net/avc/camcorder/features/3mos/ Still, since a smaller portion is used, the total size is irrelevant. What Panasonic should do is to give us the measurements of the actual video portion of the chips for each camcorder they make and that's if the marketing people would be OK with that.
post #58 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyker1212 View Post

can it record the video of hdmi input? thanks in advance

I highly doubt it would allow that. Mostly because of copyright issues. You never know though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T.Huntley View Post

The previous 2 top end JVC consumer camcorders featured a massive BSI sensor with 1.2 lens - they were terrible in low light. So I wouldn't make any assumptions until you see some actual footage. Although i DO agree, on paper it looks very tasty


The new JVC PX100 looks very interesting. Camcorderinfo is comparing it to the PX10 and they expect it to perform similarly, but with better low light performance with the f/1.2 lens. It will have sharp video for sure, with possible 900 lw/ph vertical and horizontal sharpness, or more...very sharp.

It seems to have nice slow motion modes as well, one being 600 fps. JVC went back to the traditional style cam for there top of the line this year.

I'll tell you, alot of nice cams with good new features and better specs coming out this year. I like them. Hopefully I'll upgrade to one of them this year. Here is the link to camcorderinfo's 1st impressions of some of the top new cams.

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/CES-2013-Camcorders.htm
post #59 of 107
The older video showed how a band member can wear it which would give you an extra cool angle although no 24p. It still shoots to 1080 60p or 30p. I've thought of that kind of idea in the past by seeing if I can invest a Go Pro 3 Black to be used in music videos. That would be nice but the Panasonic is still $100 cheaper. Ironic how they're using the almost the same style marketing as Go Pro with the way the specs looks on the site.

Here's another video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNVLlY-9QTc
post #60 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by tingham View Post


I'll tell you, alot of nice cams with good new features and better specs coming out this year. I like them. Hopefully I'll upgrade to one of them this year. Here is the link to camcorderinfo's 1st impressions of some of the top new cams.

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/CES-2013-Camcorders.htm

Weird. Camcorderinfo states that the Panasonic 920 is utilizing chips slightly smaller than the 900, yet Panasonic is implying the chips are larger. confused.gif
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