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Samsung F8000 -- 2013 Flagship Models - Page 86

post #2551 of 3645
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavinwow View Post

All edge-lit LED TVs will have some degree of flashlighting, banding, clouding. It is inherent to the technology. Luck of the draw on the panel you get.

Except that only 1 person on the owner's thread has complained (about 2 sets!) And he's seeing banding at an extreme angle. We'll need more of a sample to claim that this year's model has a serious problem.
post #2552 of 3645
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyboy2160 View Post

Except that only 1 person on the owner's thread has complained (about 2 sets!) And he's seeing banding at an extreme angle. We'll need more of a sample to claim that this year's model has a serious problem.

Also, he had the Euro version--I believe-- which seems to be very different than the US model in many ways--So not a reliable indicator.
post #2553 of 3645
Banding was never really an issue in the 55ES8000 either. More so clouding and occasional flashlighting.
post #2554 of 3645
Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

Ordered the 46F8000 2 days ago from Best Buy. It's not available on their site yet but in my area their warehouse has them available so they ordered one for me in-store for delivery next week. So if you want a 46" - check your local stores and ask if their warehouse has them in stock for ordering - they might. I tried to price-match at 2 locations - one wouldn't match price at all to either Greystone or Abe's of Maine. The sales guy told me I could try other stores but he would not lower the price that much for a new set. I tried a second one, and they wouldn't match Greystone, but the manager offered to take $200 off for me. I then asked if they would instead match Abe's of Maine, and after speaking to the manager again, they agreed to match Abe's of Maine. They said it was on their list of stores not match to (I didn't know they had a blacklist?) but they said since I was a silver member they would do me the favor. I think Greystone is so cheap now after dropping their prices again that Best Buy won't even consider the price match to Greystone now - it's just too much of a price difference.

But today I decided I better measure my current tv stand to see if the new set will fit when it gets delivered next week, and it doesn't fit! My current stand is 37" wide, which seemed to be plenty long enough by looking at it. But the stand is listed as being 40.7" - so it won't fit. This is a major issue for me because we simply don't have the money to spend another $100+ minimum on another stand, and the tv is coming early next week. We also have very little available room left where the current stand is, and we basically need to find a new stand that is long enough to hold the new set (so minimum of 3 inches but of course I don't want it doing a balancing act on the edges so I really want a couple inches to spare on either side), but not too long that it won't fit where I need it to go.

I'm not sure yet what to do. My girlfriend isn't even aware yet of the stand being too short - I guess we should have measured it beforehand but it looks plenty long enough and still isn't. She's gonna freak when I tell her we need to buy a new stand now - we just bought this one about 3 years ago for $100 and it's quite nice, now useless thank to the ridiculous design of the stand this year by Samsung. We may need to just give up on this and cancel the order. I really hate to do it. Samsung will lose sales because of this stand. There's just no reason for it. My old ES 46" last year fit no problem - so just because of the wacky stand design we may need to rethink this whole thing and find another tv set. At least if Samsung made an accessory basic stand that you could buy and use instead of this awful thing. Not sure what to do.

These units make great cheap TV stands if you have an ikea near you. Can use a drill to punch holes in the back to slide through cables.

http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/50102143/
post #2555 of 3645
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi29 View Post

Hi "eagle_2 ,

I have an idea !

Go to a lumber yard or any HD or Lowe`s and pick up 2 < qty > pieces of wood 6" wide by 4' (feet) long get either 1/2 or 3/4 ( 1/2 will measure 3/8 and 3/4 will measure 5/8 ) .

Poplar is a good medium wood to work with , oak is too hard and pine is too soft , also maple has nice grain , but also a "hard wood" , but not as hard as oak.

Make sure they are as straight as possible , it will save you a lot of sanding.

If you are lucky HD will cut it to the length you need ( 41" ) .

Sand using course and work your way to fine ( sandpaper pack will include variety of grits ).

Stain to your choice of stains , let dry , then use polyurethane ( gloss or semi gloss ) clear. You will need several coats ( at least 3 + sand with fine paper after each coat / except for the last.

That should do it , you will have support in the back and in the front.

I hope I have helped !! biggrin.gif

Gary 

That's not a bad idea really. It won't look beautiful but that might work. My girlfriend's dad actually suggested the same kind of idea. Do you think that would safely support the set without being a risk? I'm thinking all the weight for the set will be primarily on the F8000 stand's feet, and if the board is hanging over my current tv stand, then the F8000 feet will be hanging over my tv stand, with just the board holding the weight of the set from the feet. Would that be stable? I'm nervous thinking about that because it just seems like there's a risk of the board slipping and the feet falling off the edge.
post #2556 of 3645
Quote:
Originally Posted by AGuy01 View Post

He could also use the money he saved from Best Buy price matching to get a new stand. There was never any guarantee that they would have lowered the price to begin with, after all.

This is true. Best Buy had offered us $200 off , and we got lucky when I asked them to price-match Abe's, because that meant $310 off instead of $200. So we could consider that money as having been spent anyways if we didn't get the Abe's price-match, and just put some of that savings into a stand. But if we didn't get a price-match I think we would have had to wait because we didn't have the cash needed to pay for the remainder of what our gift card wouldn't cover if the set was full price. If we had taken the $200 off offer, I think we might have still done it, but we definitely couldn't have bought it for their full current price. So my girlfriend was really happy to have saved another $110 when they price-matched Abe's. She wasn't so happy when I suggested tonight we look at tv stands that would eat that back up.

We went to like 6 or 7 paces this evening and looked around. Stands are just expensive. Many cheaper ones are rickety and wouldn't hold my equipment very well. Some at Walmart seem to have machining issues with misaligned parts according to reviews. There was one that was real nice on display and gets great reviews on Wal-mart's site, and the price seems quite reasonable:

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Hometrends-Boulevard-3-in-1-Flat-Panel-TV-Stand-for-TVs-up-to-42/15657975

It says up to 42" but several reviews mention mounting their 47" and 50" sets on with no problem - I think as long as the mount lines up and the weight is within their spec it'll be okay. This one is nice because it adds tilt and swivel for the panel. Many stands at $80-$130 seemed very unstable or wobbly or lousy material - this one seemed very solid in the store. I think it's a great price, too - but it's still money we weren't prepared to spend, and I don't think my girlfriend is okay with that price, which I can understand. Not sure yet what to do.
post #2557 of 3645
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi29 View Post

I must agree , despite the good looks of the crescent moon stand , a lot of folks are going to find it hard to get around.

Although last years model stand was wide , at least it was not as wide as the tv it self.

Great looks , but bad idea ! wink.gif

G. 

Yup. At least if I could buy an "accessory" mini-stand from Samsung that was made to fit the tv for customers with a smaller tv rack, it might not be so bad, say $40 for a more "standard" type stand with swivel.

What gets me is that this is the best the geniuses could come up with? They could have done a hundred different things with a stand to make it look a bit unique and different and striking, all while keep it reasonable and functional. Instead they created this behemoth of a stand and it's nuts. How could this design have passed by everyone and nobody realized the size would be an issue for many people? I think a lot of people are going to buy this set and then realize the stand alone will make it a deal-breaker. In many Best Buy's you don't even see the stand, so if you just walk in off the street and buy it after seeing it on display, you may have no idea how awkward the stand is until you get home with it.

Sorry for focusing on the stand so much here - it's just throwing a wrench into things right now and I'm scrambling to decide what to do before the tv gets delivered next week. The cheaper thing to do would be to cancel the F8000 and order the F7500 when it gets released, and not have to buy a new stand, but I wanted the 8000, and we got such a good price on it.
post #2558 of 3645
Hi eagle ,

Yes I do , either the 2 pieces or the even better idea that moonhawk had , was as instead of 2 boards you would have just one board.

Or , ( just incase you missed my previous post ) this from Walmart :

http://www.walmart.com/ip/AltraMount-Cherry-Wall-Mount-Traditional-TV-Stand-for-TVs-up-to-60/21895900?srccode=cii_10043468&cpncode=31-123710502-2&adid=1500000000000036337750&veh=cse

Either way , the 46" F8000 only weighs 31 LBs , without the stand and around 38 with the stand.
So that want be an issue.

Given your time frame , do you have time to work with wood ?

Do you or do you know someone with wood working tools ?

If so maybe they could help you build a top that will simply sit on top of your existing tv stand , true it will hang over , but not buy much. You say you your stand is 37 " wide ?
OK , so if 37" wide and you make a new top to place on top of your stand , it will only hang over about 2-1/2" on each side with 37" of support , no problem with that.

Continued on next post...
post #2559 of 3645
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi29 View Post

Hi eagle_2 ,

First idea , too much work , and time frame would not work either.

But that does not mean I put my brain to sleep !!! smile.gif

How about this , not the greatest , but I bet it will work ! Down side is it is a little pricey , but not too much.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/21895900?wmlspartner=wlpa&adid=22222222227000000000&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=&wl3=21486607510&wl4=&wl5=pla&veh=sem#Specifications

I really hope you have great luck with your new Sammy , and I think this is just the ticket for a good place to put it !!

Later biggrin.gif

Gary 

PS:

O____ don`t forget to post your findings or at least a 2,000 word review !! LOL , just joking !

Yeah my woodworking skills are less than good. My girlfriend's dad may be better at it though. Funny you linked to that stand because the stand I linked to above that we saw at Wal-mart tonight is a similar style.

Thanks for thinking of me and posting that link. I'll be sure to share my thoughts on the set if all goes well.
post #2560 of 3645
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi29 View Post

Hi eagle ,

Yes I do , either the 2 pieces or the even better idea that moonhawk had , was as instead of 2 boards you would have just one board.

Or , ( just incase you missed my previous post ) this from Walmart :

http://www.walmart.com/ip/AltraMount-Cherry-Wall-Mount-Traditional-TV-Stand-for-TVs-up-to-60/21895900?srccode=cii_10043468&cpncode=31-123710502-2&adid=1500000000000036337750&veh=cse

Either way , the 46" F8000 only weighs 31 LBs , without the stand and around 38 with the stand.
So that want be an issue.

Given your time frame , do you have time to work with wood ?

Do you or do you know someone with wood working tools ?

If so maybe they could help you build a top that will simply sit on top of your existing tv stand , true it will hang over , but not buy much. You say you your stand is 37 " wide ?
OK , so if 37" wide and you make a new top to place on top of your stand , it will only hang over about 2-1/2" on each side with 37" of support , no problem with that.

Continued on next post...

Yeah, I'm not good with wood, and have no real woodworking tools. But my girlfriend's dad might be of some use in that department. I really like the stand you posted - and the one I linked to also - did you see the one I linked to above? But I think the cost is too much for us. We'll be talking about it more tomorrow but I know my girlfriend is really upset about having to drop like $160 more on a stand when we have a perfectly good one already. Stupid Samsung.
post #2561 of 3645
I truly think , where you don`t have the supplies needed for cabinetry , the Walmart option is something that will work very nicely.
Plus , by the time you loaded up those shelves it will counter act the center of gravity and will be even more stable.

If you had a plainer , a router , a biscuit bit , time and all the other stuff , plus router bits and most of all time , then you could make a really nice stand.

But it would cost more than the one at Walmart , just make sure you take your time when building it.

I think you are going to be A-OK , really !! biggrin.gif

Take care , and let me know if you go with the one at Walmart , just curious , I have seen those types of stands , but do not know much about them.
They look like a good idea though.

Anyway , take care , all my best smile.gif

Gary 
post #2562 of 3645
I hear you , Samsung , in a few months will wish they had designed something a little more compact.

I am positive that you are not alone , I bet there are a ton of folks who have bought the tv , only to find out that it will not fit there stand.


Later biggrin.gif

G. 
post #2563 of 3645
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi29 View Post

I hear you , Samsung , in a few months will wish they had designed something a little more compact.

I am positive that you are not alone , I bet there are a ton of folks who have bought the tv , only to find out that it will not fit there stand.


Later biggrin.gif

G. 

Thanks again for the suggestions. I'll let you know how everything works out.
post #2564 of 3645
Quote:
Originally Posted by PiratesCove View Post

I saw both at Best Buy and they look great.

The F8000 has a very detailed picture (motion resolution) for a LED.

The F8000 does suffer from weak off-angle viewing.

The F8500 is bright like a LCD, but can't easily hold an all bright screen like LED.

Both have excellent color accuracy and color saturation.

The F8000's black level looks best in daylight/bright room.

The F8500 look excellent at night/dark room.

Personally I like the F8500 better, and I have never owned a plasma.

PERSONALLY i would gpo with a 8500 plasma, WHY? i loved my c8000 but it wasn't the solution i expected for "GAMING", if ur into movies & such then don't waste ur time with LCD, go plasma.
IR will NEVER be solved but if ur not a gamer or watching stocks n trades, what u care? won't affect u
GO GET a 8500, i SWEAR if i had the extra $ i'd get the f8500 for movies ONLY !!!!
I don't know how well it works on sports since i couldn't GIVE A F bout sports.

Quote:
Originally Posted by moonhawk View Post

Can you add a platform, nicely finished, on top of your existing stand, to put the set on? .
YES U CAN, this is simple work, how many ppl have taken shop & home in grade school?
even if u take a crash course certification to work industrial then u'll see how simple "THIS" project is.
you go get some plywood, cut the dimention u need, screw it ontop & add a few visual fixings likeedge wood veneer which is easily done, you can use ur MOMS heat iron to glue it, then just stain the Bizaotch to ur current stand.
****...if u want something more elaborate i can draw u up a diagram that will swivel & arc.
BUT that's gonna need a bit more skill, gotta finish grade 10 for that wink.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavinwow View Post

Banding was never really an issue in the 55ES8000 either. More so clouding and occasional flashlighting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi29 View Post

I truly think , where you don`t have the supplies needed for cabinetry , the Walmart option is something that will work very nicely.
Plus , by the time you loaded up those shelves it will counter act the center of gravity and will be even more stable.

If you had a plainer , a router , a biscuit bit , time and all the other stuff , plus router bits and most of all time , then you could make a really nice stand.

Gary 

you don't need " plainer , a router , a biscuit bit '
this is a simple cut, drill down,Veneer,stain & ur DONE DIY project.
the cost of this ALso is minimal & better quality then lest say ikea or wallmart which are very cheap "material" wise.
Edited by OugaBooga - 4/20/13 at 1:26am
post #2565 of 3645
Does anybody know if I would need to buy the mounting kit shown here (listed as an accessory for the F8000):

http://www.samsung.com/us/video/tvs-accessories/WMN250M/ZA

if I were to mount the F8000 on a stand like this:

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Hometrends-Boulevard-3-in-1-Flat-Panel-TV-Stand-for-TVs-up-to-42/15657975

That stand says it comes with all the mounting hardware and various size screws for different tvs, but I don't know if they're assuming you'll have a mounting kit for your particular tv or not? I don't think you do, since the reviews seem to suggest owners just bought the stand and mounted their sets with what came in the box, but I wanted to make sure. Some owners had mounting issues in the reviews, others didn't. If I need some special mounting kit then I definitely wouldn't be doing this since the Samsung mounting kit for this tv is $100 more.

The stand I linked to says the maximum dimensions for the VESA bolt pattern that it will fit is 400mm x 400mm.

According to the manual for the F8000, the 46" VESA screw hole specs (A * B) in millimeters = 200mm X 200mm. So then according to all this, I should be okay with that stand, am I correct about that? It sounds to me that I wouldn't need any other hardware other than what comes with the stand. Or would I still need the wall mount kit? Is the wall mount kit only for mounting to the wall? Is it needed for a stand like this? Because this stand seems to come with the hardware needed to attach the panel to the stand.

Thanks for the help because I want to make sure of what I would need before I made any further decisions about a stand.
Edited by eagle_2 - 4/20/13 at 3:10am
post #2566 of 3645
Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

Does anybody know if I would need to buy the mounting kit shown here (listed as an accessory for the F8000):

http://www.samsung.com/us/video/tvs-accessories/WMN250M/ZA

if I were to mount the F8000 on a stand like this:

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Hometrends-Boulevard-3-in-1-Flat-Panel-TV-Stand-for-TVs-up-to-42/15657975

That stand says it comes with all the mounting hardware and various size screws for different tvs, but I don't know if they're assuming you'll have a mounting kit for your particular tv or not? I don't think you do, since the reviews seem to suggest owners just bought the stand and mounted their sets with what came in the box, but I wanted to make sure. Some owners had mounting issues in the reviews, others didn't. If I need some special mounting kit then I definitely wouldn't be doing this since the Samsung mounting kit for this tv is $100 more.

The stand I linked to says the maximum dimensions for the VESA bolt pattern that it will fit is 400mm x 400mm.

According to the manual for the F8000, the 46" VESA screw hole specs (A * B) in millimeters = 200mm X 200mm. So then according to all this, I should be okay with that stand, am I correct about that? It sounds to me that I wouldn't need any other hardware other than what comes with the stand. Or would I still need the wall mount kit? Is the wall mount kit only for mounting to the wall? Is it needed for a stand like this? Because this stand seems to come with the hardware needed to attach the panel to the stand.

Thanks for the help because I want to make sure of what I would need before I made any further decisions about a stand.

It's one of those kind of stands? That's awesome. And I don't believe you have to buy a mounting kit, though don't quote me on that.

If it's still bothering you, you could think of that stand as an insurance against thieves! They'd certainly have a harder time trying to take the television if it's screwed into something. Since I'm a paranoid fellow that's one of the reasons I want that kind of stand.
post #2567 of 3645
On the 55", the stand screws into the tv 3" in from each side. It then angles in about a half inch to the base, and the part that screws into the base is about 2 inches wide. I would think that most of the weight would be supported by your stand, and the idea of putting a piece of wood on top of your current stand would work. If you're worried about time frame, you can get a cheap piece of plywood to use while you are finishing the nicer one.
post #2568 of 3645
Excellent details, pictures and comparison for Samsung 2013 HDTV line-up.

Covers LED and Plasma - U.S. and Europe.


http://www.flatpanelshd.com/article.php?subaction=showfull&id=1363940545
post #2569 of 3645
I have a question about the CMR (Clear Motion rate). Is it possible that the higher the CMR rating the higher the lag? Does that have anything to do with it? Does a higher CMR require more processing, resulting in higher input lag? Just wondering if for gaming, the F7500 might be a better choice due to a lower CMR and thus less input lag? Or would that make no difference?

I don't know if that has any effect, that's why I'm asking. I know my ES7500 last year was really good in game mode. I don't know how the ES8000 compared to it with lag though, and last year the CMR was higher for the 8000 also. Does anybody know if input lag is affected by that?
post #2570 of 3645
Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

I have a question about the CMR (Clear Motion rate). Is it possible that the higher the CMR rating the higher the lag? Does that have anything to do with it? Does a higher CMR require more processing, resulting in higher input lag? Just wondering if for gaming, the F7500 might be a better choice due to a lower CMR and thus less input lag? Or would that make no difference?

I don't know if that has any effect, that's why I'm asking. I know my ES7500 last year was really good in game mode. I don't know how the ES8000 compared to it with lag though, and last year the CMR was higher for the 8000 also. Does anybody know if input lag is affected by that?

I believe Clear Motion Rate ____ is just a descriptor of how high its refresh rate can go utilizing the Auto Motion Plus feature. That's a feature you can customize or disable. A television having a high advertised Clear Motion Rate, or refresh rate, in of itself shouldn't mean the set will have high input lag, though enabling AMP does add extra processing to the image and may increase lag.

However, I really like playing games with Auto Motion Plus enabled. It makes them look so much more fluid. Once you see a game in action with those kinds of features (Samsung's AMP, Sony's Motionflow, etc.), it's hard to not use it.

It's easier to understand the effect coming from playing PC games. Most computer monitors have a refresh rate of 60Hz. For games, that means the monitor can only display 60 frames per second. A powerful system might be able to push games higher than that and in benchmarks you might see Battlefield 3 running at 90 frames a second, but if the monitor is 60Hz, you'll only be able to see 60 frames per second.

Recently, 120Hz monitors have started coming out. If your system can run a game around 120 frames per second, your 120Hz monitor will be able to display those extra frames and the image will look more fluid with reduced blur. Moving your mouse cursor and windows on your desktop will be freer of ghostly trails. It looks fantastic, but of course you need a powerful, expensive computer to be able to see those benefits for recent titles and the games often need to have support for higher refresh rates, too.

But with televisions, their higher refresh rates through features like Auto Motion Plus tend to mean motion interpolation - "a form of video processing in which intermediate animation frames are generated between existing ones, in an attempt to make animation more fluid, and to compensate for display motion blur." With video games, computer or console, that means the visual benefits of extra frames regardless of how fast the game is actually performing. For example, My Xbox 360 copy of Assassin's Creed 3 may only be running at 30 frames per second, but motion interpolation gives it the illusion of a higher frame rate!

Hopefully I have all my facts correct. That's my understanding of how everything works. And I apologize if you know most of that already, but I just felt like explaining why I enjoy motion interpolation with games.
Edited by AGuy01 - 4/20/13 at 1:08pm
post #2571 of 3645
I just saw a 65" f8500 at my local Magnolia. It is by far the best plasma i have ever seen easily besting the vt50 next to it as well as any Kuro i have seen.

sorry but the es8000 65" stands tall against the f8500. Period.

The Sony hx950 in the same room was si plagued by halo and clouding that i couldn't ever tolerate that just for inky stinky blacks.
post #2572 of 3645
Hi Guys, quick question about the 'Clear View' [supposed to get rid of picture noise] options in the menus for the Samsung F8000 (55")

Before you reply, it might be worth testing this before you reply (unless its a known issue)

I was unders the assumption that if you change settings in the picture menu, they remain the same unless, say you go into 'game mode' or something totally different. But I have noted some strange behaviour on the Samsung, and wonder whether its just an issue for my set or whether it applies to all!

If the source is the TV's own Freeview/FreeSat, or something via the HDMI cables, it logical to assume that if you change picture settings such as 'brightness', 'contrast', 'colour', etc..., as well as the intricate settings such as 'clear view', 'cinema mode' etc..., they will remain the same (especially if you have ALL SOURCES selected). Now this is true if, as mentioned before, the source is the TV's own Freeview/FreeSat, or something via the HDMI cables. But if you have say a collection of individual videos on a USB stick or hard drive, connected and played via the TV's own USB port, you will note that the TV will not hold onto the picture settings, either when the you forward to the next video or it moves to the next one itself. Try this with 'CLEAR VIEW' (which I want to enable as I have noted that the picture on the F8000 appears to be more grainy than my ES8000) Now if you enable 'CLEAR VIEW' (on any setting other than off), once the video moves to the next individual video, you will notice that the 'CLEAR VIEW' setting as gone back to off. It doesn't happen until it moves to a new video. I thought is should stay on the setting you want, and not alter of it own accord.

Can someone test this to see if it happens on all F8000 (thus possibly a firmware issue)

ADDITIONAL QUESTION: Have others noticed that the picture on the F8000 is grainier than the ES8000. I actually have the two sat side by side, and its clearly different.
post #2573 of 3645
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yasmin View Post

....
ADDITIONAL QUESTION: Have others noticed that the picture on the F8000 is grainier than the ES8000. I actually have the two sat side by side, and its clearly different.

I don't know about the ES8000, but my F8000 is showing much more film grain (and detail) than I've ever seen.
post #2574 of 3645
Quote:
Originally Posted by AGuy01 View Post

I believe Clear Motion Rate ____ is just a descriptor of how high its refresh rate can go utilizing the Auto Motion Plus feature. That's a feature you can customize or disable. A television having a high advertised Clear Motion Rate, or refresh rate, in of itself shouldn't mean the set will have high input lag, though enabling AMP does add extra processing to the image and may increase lag.

However, I really like playing games with Auto Motion Plus enabled. It makes them look so much more fluid. Once you see a game in action with those kinds of features (Samsung's AMP, Sony's Motionflow, etc.), it's hard to not use it.

It's easier to understand the effect coming from playing PC games. Most computer monitors have a refresh rate of 60Hz. For games, that means the monitor can only display 60 frames per second. A powerful system might be able to push games higher than that and in benchmarks you might see Battlefield 3 running at 90 frames a second, but if the monitor is 60Hz, you'll only be able to see 60 frames per second.

Recently, 120Hz monitors have started coming out. If your system can run a game around 120 frames per second, your 120Hz monitor will be able to display those extra frames and the image will look more fluid with reduced blur. Moving your mouse cursor and windows on your desktop will be freer of ghostly trails. It looks fantastic, but of course you need a powerful, expensive computer to be able to see those benefits for recent titles and the games often need to have support for higher refresh rates, too.

But with televisions, their higher refresh rates through features like Auto Motion Plus tend to mean motion interpolation - "a form of video processing in which intermediate animation frames are generated between existing ones, in an attempt to make animation more fluid, and to compensate for display motion blur." With video games, computer or console, that means the visual benefits of extra frames regardless of how fast the game is actually performing. For example, My Xbox 360 copy of Assassin's Creed 3 may only be running at 30 frames per second, but motion interpolation gives it the illusion of a higher frame rate!

Hopefully I have all my facts correct. That's my understanding of how everything works. And I apologize if you know most of that already, but I just felt like explaining why I enjoy motion interpolation with games.

So then the CMR value of the set is really only a measurement of how smooth the motion interpolation can be using AMP then? So then it has no bearing on regular viewing with AMP off? If that's the case, then I guess a higher CMR shouldn't affect input lag then with AMP off?

I get the feeling I might really like AMP on for gaming, but since it's disabled in game mode and pc mode, and in general AMP adds processing and increases input lag, and since I'm already worried about input lag in game mode as it is, I don't think I would want the extra lag associated with AMP on. To use it I would need to game in regular mode, and last year I found lag unacceptable in regular mode. I needed to use game mode in order for games to be responsive enough to actually play.

Too bad AMP can't be used without adding extra lag - it would be a nice option if it wasn't for the extra lag.
post #2575 of 3645
Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

So then the CMR value of the set is really only a measurement of how smooth the motion interpolation can be using AMP then? So then it has no bearing on regular viewing with AMP off? If that's the case, then I guess a higher CMR shouldn't affect input lag then with AMP off?

I get the feeling I might really like AMP on for gaming, but since it's disabled in game mode and pc mode, and in general AMP adds processing and increases input lag, and since I'm already worried about input lag in game mode as it is, I don't think I would want the extra lag associated with AMP on. To use it I would need to game in regular mode, and last year I found lag unacceptable in regular mode. I needed to use game mode in order for games to be responsive enough to actually play.

Too bad AMP can't be used without adding extra lag - it would be a nice option if it wasn't for the extra lag.

What kind of games do you play? I played through the entirety of Tomb Raider (2013) with Auto Motion Plus enabled in the Movie preset. I also played through Ni No Kuni, a Japanese RPG, and then tested some racing games. I won't say there wasn't added lag, but it didn't impact my performance. I dispatched foes as Lara Croft pretty handily. Of course, we all have our own thresholds. I just played the games and didn't look for or think much about input lag and I had a fun time while also being wowed at how good they looked on that TV.

If you're more into Call of Duty, I can start up Black Ops 2 and play through some of that with AMP. I've been playing portable games lately but I'd be happy to play a few matches and test out its single-player (which I haven't even touched yet, so I'm a bit curious if it's good or not).
Edited by AGuy01 - 4/20/13 at 9:19pm
post #2576 of 3645
Quote:
Originally Posted by AGuy01 View Post

What kind of games do you play? I played through the entirety of Tomb Raider (2013) with Auto Motion Plus enabled in the Movie preset. I also played through Ni No Kuni, a Japanese RPG, and then tested some racing games. I won't say there wasn't added lag, but it didn't impact my performance. I dispatched foes as Lara Croft pretty handily. Of course, we all have our own thresholds. I just played the games and didn't look for or think much about input lag and I had a fun time while also being wowed at how good they looked on that TV.

If you're more into Call of Duty, I can start up Black Ops 2 and play through some of that with AMP. I've been playing portable games lately but I'd be happy to play a few matches and test out its single-player (which I haven't even touched yet, so I'm a bit curious if it's good or not).

I play a bit of everything. I like first-person shooters (Bioshock, call of duty,etc.), racing games, puzzle games, platformers (like Trine), and I'm a big fan of shmups (shooters) and pinball games like Future Pinball, which require quick reflexes. I can't imagine doing well in pinball with a large amount of lag due to needing to time the flippers just right, and I play a lot of fast-paced shooters like Geometry Wars which has a ton of stuff going on all at once.

I'd like to know how well a recent Call of Duty game plays in regular mode compared to game mode since that would be a good indicator. I used to use my pc connected over HDMI for gaming, and the mouse was a good indicator of lag - in regular mode the mouse was sluggish and felt quite lazy and heavy, like it didn't want to follow where I told it to go. In game mode it was snappy and quick.
post #2577 of 3645
Quote:
Originally Posted by AGuy01 View Post

What kind of games do you play? I played through the entirety of Tomb Raider (2013) with Auto Motion Plus enabled in the Movie preset. I also played through Ni No Kuni, a Japanese RPG, and then tested some racing games. I won't say there wasn't added lag, but it didn't impact my performance. I dispatched foes as Lara Croft pretty handily. Of course, we all have our own thresholds. I just played the games and didn't look for or think much about input lag and I had a fun time while also being wowed at how good they looked on that TV.

If you're more into Call of Duty, I can start up Black Ops 2 and play through some of that with AMP. I've been playing portable games lately but I'd be happy to play a few matches and test out its single-player (which I haven't even touched yet, so I'm a bit curious if it's good or not).

I'd also be interested in hearing about the gaming performance on the F8000. Part of the reason I'm buying an F8000 is to go with the new Playstation 4. I currently have a C6300 which has been pretty good for games, but if I don't have game mode enabled, there is very noticeable lag. Also, when game mode is turned off, the screen will be extremely dark in certain areas making it almost impossible to play certain games (Dark caves in Skyrim). Is this still a factor on the F8000?

My most recent games were Dishonored, Gran Turismo 5, Need for Speed Most Wanted, Skyrim, Mass Effect 3 and I am currently finishing up with Ni No Kuni. When game mode is enabled, all of these games performed great. If the F8000 can handle these types of games while still looking good, it will be a winner in my book.

On a side note, it's funny you say you've been playing more portable games. I've found myself doing the same and I haven't touched my PS3 in a week. I've been sucked into Monster Hunter on my 3DS.
post #2578 of 3645
I'm going to post a few thoughts I was having tonight based on a review I read tonight of the UE46F7000, which I believe is the European version of the UNF7500, since it seems to have Micro-Dimming Pro like the UNF7500. I'll be posting a few of their comments because they got me thinking a bit about whether in the end the F8000 is worth the extra cost over the F7500. I'm not claiming to have any first-hand knowledge here - I'm just sharing some thoughts I'm having regarding the review. Forgive me for the long post, but maybe it may help others comparing the 7500 to the 8000.

The review is from:

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/samsung-ue46f7000-201304182858.htm?page=Performance

"After adjusting the [Backlight] and [Contrast] controls to peg top-end luminance to our usual target of 120 cd/m2, as well as switching off any unnecessary contrast stretching gimmickry, we measured the UE46F7000′s black level to be 0.048 cd/m2 on an ANSI checkerboard chart, which is almost identical to the value we obtained on the step-up UE55F8000. This suggests that both the Samsung Series 7 and Series 8 LED ranges use the same VA-type LCD panel (presumably produced inhouse) that delivers commendable contrast performance "


This seems to say they believe the UEF7000 (and likely the UNF7500) have the same exact panels as the F8000. So in that regard, the F8000 would have no benefit over the F7500 - they're the same panels.

"We also experimented with the [Cinema Black] option which is meant to dim down the letterbox bars in cinemascope films. Setting it to “Medium” or “High” unfortunately caused the whole screen, not just the letterboxed portion, to intermittently brighten or darken from one scene to another, which proved to be very distracting – certainly not a worthwhile trade-off for a marginal improvement in perceived contrast in our book. [Cinema Black] “Low” was free of such brightness fluctuations, but then there was no perceptible difference in the luminance of the top-and-bottom letterbox bars, so we decided to leave the setting off."

As I've read many times already, this sounds like a useless feature. In the EU version, Low does nothing and Med & High both cause unwanted constant brightness fluctuations across the entire screen. So regardless if the US version (which has only on or off) is more like Low or more like Med/High, either way it sounds like I'll just be leaving it off anyways. So again, the F8000 is no better than the F7500 regarding this feature - since it doesn't seem to work anyways. I thought the F7500 didn't have Cinema black, but according to Crutchfield, it does.

"Despite the presence of a quad-core chip, it seems that the layer upon layer of video processing and Smart TV functionalities implemented on the UE-46F7000 have taken their toll on the television’s gaming responsiveness. Input lag in any of the stock picture presets came in at more than 100ms; engaging [Game Mode] merely shaved this down to 80ms which still poses a serious handicap to any gamer worth his/her salt. Thankfully, as is possible with most Samsung flat-screen HDTVs, there’s a secret way to bypass even more onboard processing by labelling the HDMI input as [PC] or [DVI PC]. Using this method, we recorded an input lag figure in the region of 45ms, which is more within the realm of acceptability, although not as responsive as some ultra-fast plasma TVs that can go down to as low as 16ms."

Again, I've heard this too many times now. I'm really thinking gaming on this set is not very good, at least not for reaction-critical games like shooters and other twitch-based games. The F8000 and the F7500 both sound poor in this respect, so again, the F8000 has nothing over the F7500 in this regard. PC mode sounds like the only useful option, and as I've seen myself, virtually all image settings are disabled when PC mode is engaged properly, which is unfortunate. At least we should have control over color saturation and black levels. Game mode this year is close to double the input lag of last year's Game mode according to several reviews, and I'm pretty surprised by this.

"We would’ve proclaimed this to be the best 3-dimensional viewing experience you can get at home… were it not for the UE46F7000′s inability to reproduce 1080p/24 natively without judder in 3D mode, a seemingly common plight on Samsung 3DTVs. On the 55F8000 we reviewed last month, the company forced some gentle motion interpolation in 3D even with [Motion Plus] disabled (only [Game Mode] defeats it) in an effort to eradicate the judder, but this brought about unwanted “soap opera effect” which – though subtle – was visible to our trained eyes.

Things were somewhat different on our 46-inch F7000 unit: no motion interpolation took place with [Motion Plus] set to “Off“. This resulted in very mild stutter on slow-medium panning shots (for instance when the camera zoomed through the front door round to the Sam Flynn’s bedroom in the opening chapter of TRON: Legacy 3D Blu-ray), which to us was preferable to always-on motion enhancement that subverts the filmic look of 24fps movies."


Very curious. So the F8000 has mild motion interpolation forced on in 3D mode, which creates a mild amount of the "soap opera effect", which this review does say is noticeable to a trained eye. My girlfriend and I both spot it easily even when set to clear and we really don't like it on during 24fps movies. This goes for 3D also. I always left it off last year in 3D, and off meant "off", not mild. So the F8000 forces it on even when AMP is set to "off", yet the F7500 disables it completely when set to "off", leaving it up to me to decide if I want it on or not, rather than the F8000 forcing it on. 24fps film has natural film judder - in 2D and 3D, so I expect a natural film judder in 3D when AMP is off. I'm not sure why they were surprised that there was some film judder in 3D with AMP off - this is just the way it should be. They even said it was preferable to the forced interpolation of the F8000. Regarding 3D, it sounds like for me, the F7500 has the advantage over the F8000 - I have a choice over motion interpolation in 3D mode, as opposed to no choice with the F8000.

I'll also mention the stand - for some it will be an issue, for others it won't be. For me, this stand is causing me some grief already before I even get the set delivered. The F8000 has the goofy stand that requires I either retrofit my old stand so it looks ghetto, or buy a new stand for $150 roughly. All because of a goofy stand. Or I could get the F7500 that comes with a "normal" stand and I can save $150 and just use my current stand which is perfectly fine.

Color, greyscale, and black levels all seem to be pretty much identical between the 7500 and the 8000 according to their review. So no benefit gained there by going with the F8000. They both have the same SMART interface also, and the same quad-core processor, and the same pop-up camera. Also the same touch remote. And both sets come with 4 pairs of 3D glasses. The F7500 also has voice and gesture controls, just like the F8000 - I was under the impression that the F7500 didn't have voice and motion, but according to Crutchfield and Amazon, it does. Nothing gained with the F8000 with anything here.

Other differences between the 7500 and 8000 is the 2 additional mini subs built-in for the F8000, as well as the CMR rating being higher. Also Precision Black, whatever that is, and Micro-dimming "ultimate" vs "pro".

I have a surround system, and also a nice soundbar. While the subs would be nice for when I use the built-in speakers late at night, I can live without it. The higher CMR seems to mean nothing unless you're using AMP. Even when I have it on, it's set to clear, so I would never use it on it's highest setting anyways to take advantage of the higher CMR the F8000 has.

In the end, it looks to me like there may be very little reason to pick the F8000 over the F7500, at least for me. There's a part of me saying, well, it's already on it's way, so give it a try at least. Yeah maybe. And there's that little voice inside me from Samsung saying "Go for the F8000 because it's their top LED so it must be better than the 7500 just because". But looking at all the "benefits' the F8000 has over the F7500, it looks like they're mostly either useless or just gimmicks, and in areas like forced AMP in 3D and the stand, the F7500 seems better in some ways. In most other areas it seems identical - same panels, same bad input lag with both sets, same auto-dimming nonsense. As far as micro-dimming ultimate vs. pro, who knows? Does it really make any perceivable difference? What is Precision Black? What does that do? Anything at all? The F7500 doesn't list it but what is it even? I think for some people, the 7500 may prove to be the right choice to get close to the same image quality, if not identical, while gaining more control over the AMP setting in 3D mode, and getting a more reasonable stand - all while saving some cash too.

Not hating on the F8000 here. Just my early thoughts. I just think in my case I could save hundreds by getting the F7500 instead and keeping my current stand, and I might be happier with 3D mode. Of course, I'd hate to think I'm missing out if the F8000 does turn out to offer a better image. The F8000 is only a few days away so it makes sense to give it a shot I guess, but I have no need for a new stand if I end up with the 7500 later.

EDIT: for me, factoring in the lack of needing a new stand, the F7500 would cost $391 less than the F8000 if price-matched to Abe's like the F8000 was. So is the F8000 worth almost $400 more to me?
Edited by eagle_2 - 4/21/13 at 1:40am
post #2579 of 3645
Something I noticed that could be a big difference between the two models - Crutchfiled has a very comprehensive list of all available settings, right down to what options are in "Advanced Picture Settings" and "Picture Options". Nowhere is the setting "SMART LED" listed for the F7500. So is this setting available only in the F8000? This could be a huge difference, since enabling SMART LED in the F8000 in movie mode definitely made a very noticeable difference in image quality. I don't think I would want to lose that feature. Isn't that what controls the Micro-dimming in the F8000?

According to Crutchfield, "Smart LED: controls the brightness of individual areas on the screen to maximize contrast automatically".

They list that under "Picture Options" for the F8000 but not the F7500. All other settings under Picture Options and Advanced Picture Settings" remain the same. So it seems like, if true, you lose the "SMART LED" setting with the F7500. That could be reason to stick with the F8000.
Edited by eagle_2 - 4/21/13 at 2:00am
post #2580 of 3645
Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

Something I noticed that could be a big difference between the two models - Crutchfiled has a very comprehensive list of all available settings, right down to what options are in "Advanced Picture Settings" and "Picture Options". Nowhere is the setting "SMART LED" listed for the F7500. So is this setting available only in the F8000? This could be a huge difference, since enabling SMART LED in the F8000 in movie mode definitely made a very noticeable difference in image quality. I don't think I would want to lose that feature. Isn't that what controls the Micro-dimming in the F8000?

According to Crutchfield, "Smart LED: controls the brightness of individual areas on the screen to maximize contrast automatically".

They list that under "Picture Options" for the F8000 but not the F7500. All other settings under Picture Options and Advanced Picture Settings" remain the same. So it seems like, if true, you lose the "SMART LED" setting with the F7500. That could be reason to stick with the F8000.


Good catch-- It would be nice to think those of us who have no use for "smart" features, "Big Brother" cameras and a TV that knows when you're flipping it the bird, might be able to get the same PQ from a lower priced set.

Two points: Exercise caution comparing US models to Euro models. There are so many differences we know about it's hard to know if you're making a fair comparison between the UK 7000 and the US 8000, or US 7500.

Second, one thing I read is that the 8000 version of "local dimming", or whatever they call it, has more dimming zones than the other sets. That may be an issue for you.

Also, if you go ahead with the 8000, I have a thought for the stand dilemma: Get a peice of pre-finished shelving at Home Depot, and have them cut it to length, and put it on top of your ecisting stand. No woodworking skills required!!

It will be cheap and an effective TEMPORARY solution, which will set you back very little if you decide not to keep the 8000. They should have shelving in different finishes and widths, so it should cost you less than $20 for the price of admission to be able to do an in home demo of the F8000.
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