or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › LCD Flat Panel Displays ›  Samsung F8000 -- 2013 Flagship Models
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Samsung F8000 -- 2013 Flagship Models - Page 29

post #841 of 3645
Quote:
Originally Posted by nu02wrx View Post

Well I just walked into work and it was sitting there, a pleasant surprise haha. To be honest I was told it wasn't out until the 24th but there it was. We have a bunch of new tvs from lg, sharp and Samsung but the F8000 was the only one we opened. I work on Long Island

Ah, Long Island! So which store? I'm assuming Westbury? I might take a run over there tomorrow.
post #842 of 3645
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Sullins View Post

That's a real bummer about the unifromity. I know no tv is perfect in that area unless it's a plasma or local dimmer but some people were under the assumption that there were no uniformity issues on the F8000 that plagued the es8000. I believe Robert Zohn stated that at CES. I guess he was looking at the prototype. BTW, what panel version is it? Should say on back of tv or side of box under model #.

Don't kid yourself, all my plasmas had some uniformity issues to one degree or another. Not to the same degree as LCDs, but not perfect either.
post #843 of 3645
Quote:
Originally Posted by PiratesCove View Post

The F8000's and F7500's stands are waaaay better than the silver chicken-foot.

It time for Samsung to consider "normal" looking and functional stands as options - the same way cars have optional features.

Well, I agree they look nicer than last year. I hated the look of the chicken-foot stands. They looked silly. But at least they didn't take up a lot of space on your table/rack. The F8000 looks really nice and sleek, but the size is definitely an issue.
post #844 of 3645
Quote:
Originally Posted by pitchman View Post

According to this, there is no mention of a standard remote...

http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/electronics/Samsung/Aplus2013/F8000_Ultra_Slim_LED_SpecSheet_R14._V375347314_.pdf

No standard remote is a real problem for me. Some may think that's not reasonable, but I loved their standard remote last year, and I used it often. How much does the remote cost, really? Panasonic sold their standard remote for their blu-ray player separate, and it only cost $10 plus shipping. So I think a $2,000 -$3,000 tv can come with an extra $10-$15 remote, especially since nobody had a problem with the standard remote last year. That's the thing - most people weren't a huge fan of the touch remote, and I heard no complaints about the standard, so why do away with the standard this year? They better at least make it available for purchase separate for a very reasonable cost. It really should come with the set.

It could just be that these online pages just aren't including complete information yet.
post #845 of 3645
Quote:
Originally Posted by nu02wrx View Post

Uniformity was about the same as last years, with some brighter spots in some areas, although light bleed seemed a lot less noticeable. Motion was weird, on all settings but off the picture just didn't look right. There was a new setting in the motion setting area of the tv, can't remember what is was but it seemed to help. We put in the new Batman movie and the scene where Bane fights Batman in the dark looked strange with Auto Motion on. Didn't really try it in dynamic too much because it always looks bad but I can say one thing, it was crazy too bright haha

I only spent about an hour or so with the tv so just some small findings I noticed, will comment more when I get some more time with it

Oh and yea It did not come with a standard remote

As far as the motion not looking right with AMP on, that's what AMP does - it adds motion interpolation that causes the "soap opera effect" that looks very bizarre to many people. But that doesn't mean it's not working correctly. What I want to know once people start getting these sets is if the AMP has fixed stuttering this year. Last year it seemed most users, including myself, had stuttering on any AMP setting other than off or clear, making the other settings useless. I'm hoping this is finally fixed this year - the last 2 years this has been an issue.

If they're really not including the standard remote then I'm pissed - they did last year and it's just crappy to not include it this year.
post #846 of 3645
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

I am sure they got their unit in, we got ours.........
I hate to say it, but edge lit technology is pretty much maxed guys, it is what it is. Screen uniformity will probably always be an issue along with the other known anomalies.......I could be wrong, but probably not. A manufacturer would have to make some amazing technology breakthrough's, but lets face it, is that not OLED ?

The only reason we get these panel uniformity issues is lack of quality control. It doesn't have to happen. My girlfriend's family owns a 3-year-old Vizio that is fully backlit LCD, not edge-lit, and the uniformity is excellent. So if edge-lit is this difficult to make without uniformity issues, then they should just abandon edge-lit. I care about the screen uniformity a lot more than how thick the tv is. I'll take a thicker tv for a more uniform panel with no clouding or backlight bleed any day.
post #847 of 3645
Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

The only reason we get these panel uniformity issues is lack of quality control. It doesn't have to happen. My girlfriend's family owns a 3-year-old Vizio that is fully backlit LCD, not edge-lit, and the uniformity is excellent. So if edge-lit is this difficult to make without uniformity issues, then they should just abandon edge-lit. I care about the screen uniformity a lot more than how thick the tv is. I'll take a thicker tv for a more uniform panel with no clouding or backlight bleed any day.

It sounds like full array is a lot more money to make and consumers probably don't want to pay the premium for it. If the demand is not there, then they stop making them. I am just assuming that is what is happening. Hopefully they are using that money to invest in OLED r&d.
post #848 of 3645
Quote:
Originally Posted by DustinLH00 View Post

It sounds like full array is a lot more money to make and consumers probably don't want to pay the premium for it. If the demand is not there, then they stop making them. I am just assuming that is what is happening. Hopefully they are using that money to invest in OLED r&d.

It's just a shame that in terms of uniformity we're taking a step backwards with these sets and there's nothing we can do about it apparently. When a sub-$400 Vizio 3 years ago has better uniformity than a current flagship Samsung, there's a problem with priorities. Samsung is putting the external design and eye-candy smart-hub features over the actual quality of the panel, which is backwards. Sure, I think the smarthub menus are real snazzy, but what good is it if the uniformity is lacking? People weren't returning last year's sets because of smarthub issues, they were returning them due to uniformity issues. That's why ultimately I got refunded the cost of my ES7500. Great menus, lousy panels.

So many people returned sets last year to Best Buy (not just Samsung) that Best Buy changed their return policies this year to just 15 days. I'm willing to bet the vast majority of those returns were due to uniformity issues. The lack of quality control is costing the industry a ton of money and the manufacturers don't seem to get it.
post #849 of 3645
Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

The only reason we get these panel uniformity issues is lack of quality control. It doesn't have to happen. My girlfriend's family owns a 3-year-old Vizio that is fully backlit LCD, not edge-lit, and the uniformity is excellent. So if edge-lit is this difficult to make without uniformity issues, then they should just abandon edge-lit. I care about the screen uniformity a lot more than how thick the tv is. I'll take a thicker tv for a more uniform panel with no clouding or backlight bleed any day.

I believe it was the Sony 850, an edge lit design, that generally had very good screen uniformity.
post #850 of 3645
Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

It's just a shame that in terms of uniformity we're taking a step backwards with these sets and there's nothing we can do about it apparently. When a sub-$400 Vizio 3 years ago has better uniformity than a current flagship Samsung, there's a problem with priorities. Samsung is putting the external design and eye-candy smart-hub features over the actual quality of the panel, which is backwards. Sure, I think the smarthub menus are real snazzy, but what good is it if the uniformity is lacking? People weren't returning last year's sets because of smarthub issues, they were returning them due to uniformity issues. That's why ultimately I got refunded the cost of my ES7500. Great menus, lousy panels.

So many people returned sets last year to Best Buy (not just Samsung) that Best Buy changed their return policies this year to just 15 days. I'm willing to bet the vast majority of those returns were due to uniformity issues. The lack of quality control is costing the industry a ton of money and the manufacturers don't seem to get it.

I feel like forums like these do not give a good representation of the average consumer. People that come here are concerned with picture quality over most anything else, but the average Joe Consumer doesn't notice things like banding, clouding, flashlighting, etc. They are, however, concerned with things like 3D, apps, and aesthetics. I am not trying to defend Samsung here, but more thinking that if they made a really great picture quality monitor with no smart features or gimmicks, then it would only sell to people in here and sales would drop. In order to compete, they have to throw in the gimmicks and flashy stands, thin bezels, and people buy them up.

And I believe that Best Buy changed their policy more so because of the online price-matching becoming permanent now.
post #851 of 3645
eagle_2, I don't get why you're so interested in owning a F8000 if you had so many problems with an ES model. Do you really think Samsung is going to make a huge leap in quality from 2012 to 2013? the problems people are complaining about (uniformity, banding, etc) are inherent to edge-lit displays, and Samsung has been the worst offender in regards to these issues since they started making edge-lit TVs in 2009. I very highly doubt that Samsung is going to retool their lineup for a few nitpicky AVSers when their displays sell like hotcakes, especially since high-end edge-lit is becoming a stop-gap between OLED and 4K,.

My suggestion: buy an EH model, or hunt down a 46" Sony HX929 or HX850.
post #852 of 3645
Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

The only reason we get these panel uniformity issues is lack of quality control. It doesn't have to happen. My girlfriend's family owns a 3-year-old Vizio that is fully backlit LCD, not edge-lit, and the uniformity is excellent. So if edge-lit is this difficult to make without uniformity issues, then they should just abandon edge-lit. I care about the screen uniformity a lot more than how thick the tv is. I'll take a thicker tv for a more uniform panel with no clouding or backlight bleed any day.
Back lit is more costly to produce it seems and most want cheaper, cheaper.........so the most win. Local dimming is top dog and it is looking like the XBR's will be it for 2013..........a whole 2 models, lol. I think Vizio even went to edge lit.
post #853 of 3645
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatuglyguy View Post

eagle_2, I don't get why you're so interested in owning a F8000 if you had so many problems with an ES model. Do you really think Samsung is going to make a huge leap in quality from 2012 to 2013? the problems people are complaining about (uniformity, banding, etc) are inherent to edge-lit displays, and Samsung has been the worst offender in regards to these issues since they started making edge-lit TVs in 2009. I very highly doubt that Samsung is going to retool their lineup for a few nitpicky AVSers when their displays sell like hotcakes, especially since high-end edge-lit is becoming a stop-gap between OLED and 4K,.

My suggestion: buy an EH model, or hunt down a 46" Sony HX929 or HX850.

Unfortunately I'm not really interested in owning a Sony. I hear the 3D is awful, and that is important to me. The problem is that there are only a very limited number of options available. Sad to say, but Samsung has to remain in my list of choices. I have ruled out LG because they don't make active 3D sets, only passive. I'm not a fan of passive due to the loss of resolution - I have looked heavily into that option in the past and for me, I prefer the active technology. I will also keep the Panasonic set open as an option - I tried their ST50 last year and for various reasons plasma wasn't for me, especially with a pink blotch on the screen and image retention issues, not to mention lousy 3D. Maybe their LCD sets will be a good option this year for me, but their 3D detection was screwy last year also which made many of my side-by-side files un-viewable since the tv wouldn't switch over to 3D mode, even manually. 3D blu-ray discs didn't have that issue though. So I'm nervous about their 3D, though I do like their "3D motion remaster" technology which seems to deal with 3D motion issues that Samsung just ignores completely.

I guess I'll just wait and see what comes out over the next couple months. I'm in no rush, and I want to make the right choice. I agree with you that it's unlikely that Samsung will improve their uniformity very much this year. As far as them selling like hotcakes, yeah, they do, but according to comments I've heard from various Best Buy employees in the threads, they are also the most-returned sets they get. So they sell tons and get tons of returns.
post #854 of 3645
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

Back lit is more costly to produce it seems and most want cheaper, cheaper.........so the most win. Local dimming is top dog and it is looking like the XBR's will be it for 2013..........a whole 2 models, lol. I think Vizio even went to edge lit.

Yup, I think you're right about that unfortunately. Even Vizio seems to be going edge-lit now I think.
post #855 of 3645
Quote:
Originally Posted by DustinLH00 View Post

I feel like forums like these do not give a good representation of the average consumer. People that come here are concerned with picture quality over most anything else, but the average Joe Consumer doesn't notice things like banding, clouding, flashlighting, etc. They are, however, concerned with things like 3D, apps, and aesthetics. I am not trying to defend Samsung here, but more thinking that if they made a really great picture quality monitor with no smart features or gimmicks, then it would only sell to people in here and sales would drop. In order to compete, they have to throw in the gimmicks and flashy stands, thin bezels, and people buy them up.

And I believe that Best Buy changed their policy more so because of the online price-matching becoming permanent now.

I think people notice these issues more than you think. My girlfriend, who usually doesn't care at all about these things, definitely noticed the clouding and flashlighting on our set, and commented on it as soon as she first saw it. She's the last person to care about those things but she admitted it looked pretty bad. The clouding was bad enough on some of these panels last year that I think any average person would be disappointed that they spent so much on a set with blotches all over the screen.
post #856 of 3645
^^^ To further that, I think your friend's Vizio was a rare, good one. Unless a set is local dimming, usually it has uniformity issues frown.gif I will go as far as saying that a edge lit, back lit unit without local dimming, usually will have uniformity issues unless a anonymity piece is produced, being a good one. It is what it is, don't shoot the messenger..........
post #857 of 3645
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

^^^ To further that, I think your friend's Vizio was a rare, good one. Unless a set is local dimming, usually it has uniformity issues frown.gif I will go as far as saying that a edge lit, back lit unit without local dimming, usually will have uniformity issues unless a anonymity piece is produced, being a good one. It is what it is, don't shoot the messenger..........

+1
I still have a full-array Sharp from '09, no local dimming. Uniformity is surprisingly great but there are still a couple problem areas. It's just inherent to the technology. Local dimming that is well-implemented is necessary to alleviate these issues.
post #858 of 3645
Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

Unfortunately I'm not really interested in owning a Sony. I hear the 3D is awful, and that is important to me. The problem is that there are only a very limited number of options available. Sad to say, but Samsung has to remain in my list of choices. I have ruled out LG because they don't make active 3D sets, only passive. I'm not a fan of passive due to the loss of resolution - I have looked heavily into that option in the past and for me, I prefer the active technology. I will also keep the Panasonic set open as an option - I tried their ST50 last year and for various reasons plasma wasn't for me, especially with a pink blotch on the screen and image retention issues, not to mention lousy 3D. Maybe their LCD sets will be a good option this year for me, but their 3D detection was screwy last year also which made many of my side-by-side files un-viewable since the tv wouldn't switch over to 3D mode, even manually. 3D blu-ray discs didn't have that issue though. So I'm nervous about their 3D, though I do like their "3D motion remaster" technology which seems to deal with 3D motion issues that Samsung just ignores completely.

I guess I'll just wait and see what comes out over the next couple months. I'm in no rush, and I want to make the right choice. I agree with you that it's unlikely that Samsung will improve their uniformity very much this year. As far as them selling like hotcakes, yeah, they do, but according to comments I've heard from various Best Buy employees in the threads, they are also the most-returned sets they get. So they sell tons and get tons of returns.

Eagle, 3D is anything but horrible with the HX950. Who told you it was terrible. Majority of negative comments about the 3D were because people were too stupid to either get the PS3 polarizing glasses or just request the free polarizing filters from Sony online. All reviews were also done prior to the polarizing glasses. Without those, the picture supposedly flickered and degraded with the slightest head tilt, with the polarizing it is excellent.

With the polarizing 3D glasses, the 3D is almost identical to the Samsung 65ES8000 which has the best 3D of any of the Samsungs and blows away the horrendous 3D on the 60ES8000 which has by far the worst 3D of all the ES sizes due to the Sharp panel it uses. Even better yet, my 65HX950s 3D exceeds the 65ES8000 since I'm not distracted by the atrocious vertical banding.

Out if all the tvs I've owned this past year, 65VT50, 65ES8000, 60ES8000 and 65HX950, the Sony had the best 3D of all the sets with the exception of the 65ES8000, but surpasses the Samsung because of the lack of noticeable banding which ruins the Sammy's 3D presentation.
post #859 of 3645
Quote:
Originally Posted by DustinLH00 View Post

I feel like forums like these do not give a good representation of the average consumer. People that come here are concerned with picture quality over most anything else, but the average Joe Consumer doesn't notice things like banding, clouding, flashlighting, etc. They are, however, concerned with things like 3D, apps, and aesthetics. I am not trying to defend Samsung here, but more thinking that if they made a really great picture quality monitor with no smart features or gimmicks, then it would only sell to people in here and sales would drop. In order to compete, they have to throw in the gimmicks and flashy stands, thin bezels, and people buy them up.

And I believe that Best Buy changed their policy more so because of the online price-matching becoming permanent now.

15 day exchange/return policy change has nothing to do with online price matching. The change was added to the list of policy changes that took effect this past week as a result of the losses the company took on exchanges and returns in general. It may have occurred simultaneously but they are not related.

Also, the main reason Samsung lacks quality control is because it is cheaper for them to deal with returns and warranty claims then the cost of higher quality control. That is why people are going to be so disappointed when these F8000s have the same % of defects like dead pixels, banding, flashlighting etc, as the ES8000s. It's not like they fired all the minimum wage assembly line workers in their Tijauna facility that shipped out so many duds. It will be the same people making the same crappy product.
Edited by cmay91472 - 3/6/13 at 9:02pm
post #860 of 3645
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmay91472 View Post

Eagle, 3D is anything but horrible with the HX950. Who told you it was terrible. Majority of negative comments about the 3D were because people were too stupid to either get the PS3 polarizing glasses or just request the free polarizing filters from Sony online. All reviews were also done prior to the polarizing glasses. Without those, the picture supposedly flickered and degraded with the slightest head tilt, with the polarizing it is excellent.

With the polarizing 3D glasses, the 3D is almost identical to the Samsung 65ES8000 which has the best 3D of any of the Samsungs and blows away the horrendous 3D on the 60ES8000 which has by far the worst 3D of all the ES sizes due to the Sharp panel it uses. Even better yet, my 65HX950s 3D exceeds the 65ES8000 since I'm not distracted by the atrocious vertical banding.

Out if all the tvs I've owned this past year, 65VT50, 65ES8000, 60ES8000 and 65HX950, the Sony had the best 3D of all the sets with the exception of the 65ES8000, but surpasses the Samsung because of the lack of noticeable banding which ruins the Sammy's 3D presentation.

3D looks fantastic on my hx929.
post #861 of 3645
Quote:
Originally Posted by arenaman View Post

Yes, he is banned

What did he do, other than being overbearing and condescending?
post #862 of 3645
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatuglyguy View Post

+1
I still have a full-array Sharp from '09, no local dimming. Uniformity is surprisingly great but there are still a couple problem areas. It's just inherent to the technology. Local dimming that is well-implemented is necessary to alleviate these issues.
I am not sure what to say, except that I think after how many years of producing LCD/LED's people are stating to catch your wise words............
post #863 of 3645
Quote:
Originally Posted by moonhawk View Post

What did he do, other than being overbearing and condescending?

I'm not aware of the full facts and it's probably not appropriate to air them in public anyway. I know he's popped up on the UK forum
post #864 of 3645
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmay91472 View Post

That is why people are going to be so disappointed when these F8000s have the same % of defects like dead pixels, banding, flashlighting etc, as the ES8000s. It's not like they fired all the minimum wage assembly line workers in their Tijauna facility that shipped out so many duds. It will be the same people making the same crappy product.

With no reviews, no product to see (other than one poster's brief comment), it's a bit early to declare the F8000 panel as 'the same crappy product'...especially with favorable reviews from those at CES (prototype or not). Aside from that, there are many E8000 owners that love their displays.

If I was as convinced as you, I don't think I'd even bother with this thread. But that's me.

In the end, you may be right and there may be significant issues with the new panels...or maybe you'll be wrong and they'll be great.

Crazy idea, let's wait and see rather than pre-judging.
post #865 of 3645
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

With no reviews, no product to see (other than one poster's brief comment), it's a bit early to declare the F8000 panel as 'the same crappy product'...especially with favorable reviews from those at CES (prototype or not). Aside from that, there are many E8000 owners that love their displays.

If I was as convinced as you, I don't think I'd even bother with this thread. But that's me.

In the end, you may be right and there may be significant issues with the new panels...or maybe you'll be wrong and they'll be great.

Crazy idea, let's wait and see rather than pre-judging.

Ken with all due respect. I think we are talking about two different things here. I am referring to quality control. I have no doubt that the F8000 (aside from the expected vertical banding on the 65F8000) will be an exceptional TV if one gets a defect free one. When I say crappy product, I'm NOT referring to image quality, or my previously mentioned comment on the stand, or smart hub usability..... STRICTLY quality control. Do you honestly think that Samsung will magically have improved QC overnight when for the past few years, they have been cranking out such a high % of duds?

That being said, I'm not against purchasing an F8000 which is why I like following the thread. I am definitely skeptical as many former or present ES8000 owners will be, and will be following developments throughout the summer. I definitely would not purchase an F8000 at current pricing as I'm only looking to add a secondary TV for the upstairs, so would most likely wait until Oct/Nov when the price of ES8000s starting seeing the major price reductions.
post #866 of 3645
On a side note, for potential 65F8000 owners wondering about vertical banding.....

Check out this review of the 84 inch 4K LG behemoth.....

http://www.digitaltrends.com/tv-reviews/lg-84lm9600-review/

Another example of what I have been saying all along..... all LEDs over 65 inches will suffer from some degree of vertical banding. Aside from the light bleed issues on this 4K set, I was alarmed to read the vertical banding was every 2-3 inches stretched across the screen. Obviously we will have to wait another couple of months to see what degree of vertical banding appears on the F8000, but to expect it to have no vertical banding would be a technological break-thru that Samsung would be touting the hell out of if they knew they resolved it.
post #867 of 3645
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmay91472 View Post

On a side note, for potential 65F8000 owners wondering about vertical banding.....

Check out this review of the 84 inch 4K LG behemoth.....

http://www.digitaltrends.com/tv-reviews/lg-84lm9600-review/

Another example of what I have been saying all along..... all LEDs over 65 inches will suffer from some degree of vertical banding. Aside from the light bleed issues on this 4K set, I was alarmed to read the vertical banding was every 2-3 inches stretched across the screen. Obviously we will have to wait another couple of months to see what degree of vertical banding appears on the F8000, but to expect it to have no vertical banding would be a technological break-thru that Samsung would be touting the hell out of if they knew they resolved it.

Have they even acknowledged that the issue exists?
post #868 of 3645
cmay91472 I don't think it's a fair to use a LG 84" review to warn all potential Samsung 65" F8000 owners that they will suffer from vertical banding.

And here we go again blaming the Samsung Tijuana workers for q/c issues. Assuming you are correct and more ES8000 series panels had a higher rate of defects vs let's say Sharp or Sony, why not believe that a company like Samsung would not recognize these problems and be pro-active to solve them in the 2013 model year. Also consider that it may have actually been the parts that were inconsistent and not the assembly workers rolleyes.gif
post #869 of 3645
Quote:
Originally Posted by schnura View Post

cmay91472 I don't think it's a fair to use a LG 84" review to warn all potential Samsung 65" F8000 owners that they will suffer from vertical banding.

And here we go again blaming the Samsung Tijuana workers for q/c issues. Assuming you are correct and more ES8000 series panels had a higher rate of defects vs let's say Sharp or Sony, why not believe that a company like Samsung would not recognize these problems and be pro-active to solve them in the 2013 model year. Also consider that it may have actually been the parts that were inconsistent and not the assembly workers rolleyes.gif

1 - It's not a warning. It's trying to educate buyers that banding exists on all 65+ led tvs. People claimed that there could be no way banding exists in a $15,000 4K set.

2 - There are several factors involved, but the difference between banding that is obnoxious like the 65ES8000 and minor like the 65HX950 or 70 Elite is shoddy manufacturing, so yes banding may not be a result of assembly, but light bleed, flashlighting and other uniformity can be a direct result.

3 - You totally don't get it do you. It's not a knock on Samsung, it's a knock on all 65+ led tvs.

4 - You are living under a rock if you think Samsung gives one hoot about fixing Quality control when it costs them less to deal with returns and warranty claims then to invest money on better QC. It's a business decision they are making.
Edited by cmay91472 - 3/7/13 at 6:02am
post #870 of 3645
Quote:
Originally Posted by arenaman View Post

Have they even acknowledged that the issue exists?

I don't think they ever have such as when Sony did with the HX929 when they blamed it on Samsung and the panel being used, but the fact that they are willing to process warranty claims for it means they are fully aware of the issue.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: LCD Flat Panel Displays
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › LCD Flat Panel Displays ›  Samsung F8000 -- 2013 Flagship Models