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Samsung F8500 - new industry standard? [please use links to newer thread] - Page 38  

post #1111 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by wattheF View Post

Thats it! Thanks.

This illustrates perfectly my point that some plasma TV's still suffer from fluctuating brightness.

But that's not the ABL characteristic that many of us refer to. David is talking more about a smooth ramping of 'fade to black' and back again. I'm talking about the impact of ABL that throttles back a full screen or nearly full screen white or bright scene from achieving the brightness the signal may have called for.
post #1112 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

I believe the ZT60 with the new phosphor system will have a very slight edge in color over the F8500 and VT50 (if both of these displays are about equal in color according Zohn who had Kevin Miller calibrate). I cannot see Panasonic not making the ZT60 improve upon the VT50 in this area despite its very good color.

Blacks I think will be very close - so close it may not be much of a factor - although I think the ZT60 by a hair just because Panasonic has owned this area for the last several years with plasmas.

Brightness will go to F8500.

ABL? Not sure, but it sounds like Samsung made some ground here.

You may be right Dave, but let's look at the issue of color. It appears we have two panels (F8500 & VT50) that already have very nearly perfect color. Will going from very nearly perfect color to, let's make the stretch, 'perfect color', truly be visible? Would you know when that 1-2% (for arguments sake) improvement in color occurred? I truly doubt it. In fact without knowing precisely what the color should look like, would we ever know where and to what degree that color error occurred?

We strive for 'perfect everything' and that's admirable, but I just wonder if we're not at a point where such small incremental improvements such as going from 'very nearly perfect' color to 'incredibly close to perfect color' is really going to be visible at all.

The same is true with black levels. Will the difference between an MLL of .001 and .0004 really be visible to any great degree? Perhaps in a bat cave, looking very closely at a screen that has no signal, yes. But let's face it, if there is even a small patch of brightness on an otherwise black screen, will we see this .0006 difference???

The real improvements in color, IMO, will come when we change standards and move away from Rec709, not when we see these tiny, marginal improvements within Rec709.

That's why I'm excited about the 8500 and possibly the ZT60. The improvements already seen in the 8500's brightness are not minor, they're quite significant and never before seen in one jump. The apparent improvements in the less aggressive ABL just piggy backs on the greatly enhanced brightness.

I'm pretty jazzed to get even close to the brightness of LED and the black levels of a great plasma or LED like the Elite. smile.gif
post #1113 of 1868
Any word yet on the motion resolution of this tv? I'm wondering because the ZT60 is perfect is this regard according to the article linked below and I want to know how close the 8500 is to being perfect.

http://www.tedpublications.com/news/exclusive-panasonic-65zt60-plasma-tv-preview/

"A so-called Hexa processing engine combines six-image enhancement techniques (including noise reduction, Intelligent Frame Creation and MPEG re-mastering), while a 3,000Hz Focused Field Drive (FFD) promises improved motion resolution and from the QTEC pattern blu-ray disc (used by NHK and some other broadcast studios worldwide) the motion resolution is an astounding full 1920×1080 (i.e.: full-resolution regardless of the direction the image is moving), something that have never been achieved by any TV regardless of technology until now!"
Edited by Slickman - 3/24/13 at 7:26pm
post #1114 of 1868
Ken, I wholeheartedly agree. I believe we are reaching the upper limits of plasma potential at least in some of these areas based upon today's technology, energy standards, etc. I think the overall differences are going to be very slight with these top tier displays. Once more evaluations are done by those we trust, I am curious which of these displays looks the more "organic" or natural? This is where it becomes impossible to really measure and probably takes a number of calibrations and comparisons before it starts to sink in even for the top calibrators, but I just wonder if one of these will float to the top in this regard. smile.gif

It also comes down to one's needs based on viewing. For me, dark room viewing with Blu-ray is #1. For others, daytime viewing becomes an issue, so greater fl becomes much more important. For others, it may be 3D, etc.
post #1115 of 1868
Will the increased brightness result in other problems- increased potential for IR, brightness pops, buzz? I understand that Robert's F8500 buzzes.
post #1116 of 1868
It could, but Robert has said he has noticed no IR as of yet.....As far as buzzing Robert says he has someone that hears it, but the buzz is very directional and you need to be int he "sweet spot" to hear it. The owner of the set here has said he doesnt hear it so its a toss up...as far as Brighness pops I havent heard anything related to that since the 2011 models which had a firmware that suppoedly fixed that issue, Robert has also reported that ABL is less agressive which should also help in that arena....

Of course much of this is speculation until more owners get these sets in thier hands and into the multitude of environments that are out there....
post #1117 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

But that's not the ABL characteristic that many of us refer to. David is talking more about a smooth ramping of 'fade to black' and back again. I'm talking about the impact of ABL that throttles back a full screen or nearly full screen white or bright scene from achieving the brightness the signal may have called for.

OK, yes that is not ideal but is alot easier to live with than pops or noticeable fluctuations
post #1118 of 1868
Can someone provide a link where Robert is saying all these things at? Thanks
post #1119 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheshechic View Post

Will the increased brightness result in other problems- increased potential for IR, brightness pops, buzz?
Our PN64F8500 does not buzz, even with bright screens from break in slides.
post #1120 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

Our PN64F8500 does not buzz, even with bright screens from break in slides.

Do those bright screens look brighter than on other plasma displays?
post #1121 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slickman View Post

Can someone provide a link where Robert is saying all these things at? Thanks

Its on a different forum so that wont be possible, if you Google search for his full name and add forum youll be able to see where he is posting though......Or just wait for updates form members that are bringing the inforamtion over....BTW the Calibration report should be available tomorrow, but of course its going to be on another forum\site (besides the one he is posting to) so you will msot likely only get ported over information as well....Best bet is to wait until chad B does the calibration for Chris (Cleveland Plasma) which should get posted here.....
post #1122 of 1868
I really hope these high end 2013 sets can at least match pioneer kuros gaming lag. I've yet to find a TV that's as fast as the Kuro when gaming and I have the 55vt50, 59d8000 and 59d7000.
post #1123 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by locdog33 View Post

I really hope these high end 2013 sets can at least match pioneer kuros gaming lag. I've yet to find a TV that's as fast as the Kuro when gaming and I have the 55vt50, 59d8000 and 59d7000.

That's a GREAT point and would like to find this out as well. I game on my 5020FD and it doesn't feel laggy at all. This would be a deal breaker if low latency were not possible on the F8500, but I suspect at the very least it has a 'PC Input' mode with low input latency. Would love to find out for sure though ...
post #1124 of 1868
Looks like there are too many Panny fanboys on a Samsung topic. rolleyes.gif
post #1125 of 1868
I had no idea there was pics on another site showing the F8500 and a calibrated VT50 side by side. That Titanic pic is very telling because the F8500 seems to be sharper and showing more shadow detail. You can also see how the whiter parts of the image are brighter as well on the F8500.



Credit to Value Electronics for the photo
Edited by Slickman - 3/25/13 at 7:14am
post #1126 of 1868
which 1 is on the right
post #1127 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I've still not seen a black level that is as good as what I see on my Elite. If the 8500 can match it or at least, visually, look identical, I'll be one very happy camper. I can honestly say I have no need, none, for black levels deeper than what I see on the Elite.

Sharp Elite has plenty of room for better black levels. While the black levels are very good in typical content, look at it when it needs to display small bright objects in a predominantly bright scene. Examples are end credits on a black screen, fireworks, or stars in space. Or simply look at it 15 degrees off angle. In those scenarios, the black levels are noticeably worse than a VT50 or Kuro, and presumably the F8500.
post #1128 of 1868
sharp elite has very bad angles. We have 1 on display in our Mag room
post #1129 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by hotskins View Post

which 1 is on the right

Look at the red power button on the one on the left. That would mean the 8500 is the one on the right..
post #1130 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

The same is true with black levels. Will the difference between an MLL of .001 and .0004 really be visible to any great degree? Perhaps in a bat cave, looking very closely at a screen that has no signal, yes. But let's face it, if there is even a small patch of brightness on an otherwise black screen, will we see this .0006 difference???

If one of them is a Sharp Elite, then yes -- it will be very very noticeable smile.gif.

The black level around the bright patch will increase by 10x. Small patches of brightness are the exact areas where dimming LEDs falter. This is why regardless of how good the Elite's MLL is, it will never be able to present a starry night sky or fireworks with the same level of depth and contrast as a good plasma. Granted plasma has it's own weaknesses, but I'm showing you scenarios where the Elite is not the absolute authority in black levels.

That being said, I don't think black levels are the Elite's real weakness -- it's the motion performance where the Elite really lacks. It's actually significantly worse than a lot of other LEDs. The amount of detail lost on the Elite is just staggering. I feel like I'm looking at a 2005 era LCD when I see objects in motion on the Elite.
post #1131 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by superbooga View Post

Sharp Elite has plenty of room for better black levels. While the black levels are very good in typical content, look at it when it needs to display small bright objects in a predominantly bright scene. Examples are end credits on a black screen, fireworks, or stars in space. Or simply look at it 15 degrees off angle. In those scenarios, the black levels are noticeably worse than a VT50 or Kuro, and presumably the F8500.
Uh oh, them are fighting words (since Ken likes to rib me, turnabout is fair play tongue.gif).
post #1132 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by hotskins View Post

which 1 is on the right



F8500 is on right
post #1133 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slickman View Post

I had no idea there was pics on another site showing the F8500 and a calibrated VT50 side by side. That Titanic pic is very telling because the F8500 seems to be sharper and showing more shadow detail. You can also see how the whiter parts of the image are brighter as well on the F8500.

To be fair, the VT50 is 65" and overscanning vs the 8500 at 60" and no (or considerably less) overscanning. The VT50 also appears physically closer by a couple of feet. So it's not too surprising the 8500 would seem "sharper". And as for shadow detail, brightness, etc, I don't know the two sets are calibrated identically or what effect their angles WRT the camera lens and lighting has on the photos.
post #1134 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by agkss View Post

Ken you too because all for you is brightness. It's clear you don't like and you don't give a chance to panasonic zt60. wink.gif
You talk always about ABL in Plasma and say that is agressive...for the record i don't notice ABL Kick on my GT50. I'm agree with rogo ABL it's rarely visible on real material

You shouldn't notice it "kick in" if the process is working correctly. However, what you should notice is that while the screen can maintain a fairly bright overall picture, depending on the scene it may be quite dimmer than it should be. The next time you see a bright scene, pause it and bring up the menu button. That's what the entire picture should look like, if it weren't for the ABL.

Sorry, back on topic now. wink.gif
Edited by JSpectre88 - 3/24/13 at 10:57pm
post #1135 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slickman View Post

Do those bright screens look brighter than on other plasma displays?
Well we can compare it to a TC-P50ST60 tomorrow wink.gif It is a 50" however, Panasonic's test the same in all sizes in the past, 50" 55", 60" and 65" all test the same in the same series. In the past they have not been like the Samsung's. Where the Samsung's test different from 51" to 60" to 65" in the same series.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slickman View Post

the F8500 and a calibrated VT50 side by side. That Titanic pic is very telling because the F8500 seems to be sharper and showing more shadow detail. You can also see how the whiter parts of the image are brighter as well on the F8500.

You can not judge a TV by pictures......ask anyone in here and they will pretty much say the same. Looks like the VT50 is at a different angle to the camera to start.
Edited by Cleveland Plasma - 3/24/13 at 11:57pm
post #1136 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by agkss View Post

Well i don't have a brand loyalty neither, i bought samsung crt, i have an EH4000 Samsung LED, I have hitachi crt's, Sony crt's...i can't buy the best display in that time because:
1. The best display rarely came to my country.
2. The difficult to buy one high end tv on my country.
3. I'm young, i have to save money it's not easy to spend all my money on a tv when i have to study a magister and then a Ph.D.

And for make all worse...no ISF Calibrator in my zone...but who cares...i'm talking in the other post of my own situation because wattheF asking for the brightness pop experience.

Now this is really annoying.
You say Good TV sets rarely comes to your country and yet you keep making comments and giving final judgments of what is best even though you have never seen these TVs in person!!

You are exactly like someone I know who thinks Algeria is the most beautiful country on earth in terms of its nature!! When I asked him how many times you have visited Algeria, he said NONE!!!

You both are similar biggrin.gif
post #1137 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by hotskins View Post

which 1 is on the right
The F8500 is on the right. You can figure it from its unique stand
post #1138 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSpectre88 View Post

You shouldn't notice it "kick in" if the process is working correctly. However, what you should notice is that while the screen can maintain a fairly bright overall picture, depending on the scene it may be quite dimmer than it should be. The next time you see a bright scene, pause it and bring up the menu button. That's what the entire picture should look like, if it weren't for the ABL.

Sorry, back on topic now. wink.gif

So JSpectre, I'm not entirely sure what the "menu button" test (i.e. I don't really get how that would show much), but I have my own set of tests where I go, "hmmm... is the ABL really causing me to lose brightness here or is something else going on?" and what I find is when I perform them, the answer is surprisingly... "not very often". Many films don't have a huge dynamic range in them and us long-time plasma owners will often wonder if that muted light range is the plasma or the film so we have to engage in some clever trickery to find out sometimes (like, play the scene on the LCD... stream the scene on the laptop if possible.... etc...)

Or, when we're really wondering... run a movie like "The Bourne Legacy" and remind ourselves that, um, yeah, ABL is not what it used to be.

Incidentally, I have no doubt the Samsung F8500 is going to best the VT50 in this regard. I'm not sure it will match the VT50 in avoiding unnatural brightness fluctuations (the VT50 has none, which is nice) but it might well do that too. Overall, it sounds terrific based on preliminary reports and makes me (as I said elsewhere on AVS) a tad jealous. But after a weekend of NCAA Tourney and some movie watching, that's a pretty small tad. Because, um, how much better can nearly perfect color get? How much better can 10,000:1 ANSI contrast get?
post #1139 of 1868
Regarding the F8500 vs VT50 comparison, too bad they didnt measure full white screen (100% APL) brightness. That would have told us something about ABL-behaviour.
post #1140 of 1868
From many of the posts I have read, I noticed that many people just concentrate on the black levels of the TV to make their decision.
But for Plasmas I personally think these factors are very important:
1- Black Levels
2- Brightness Level
3- Sharpness
4- The Buzz
5- How prone or resistant to IR

I never considered a Plasma because of lack of brightness and sharpness, but from the few user experiences I have read about the F8500 I hope it will be the Plasma TV that makes me a plasma owner. I love the black levels and the contrast of Plasmas but not the sharpness or their brightness. Can't wait to see the F8500 with my own eyes to make the decision.
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