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post #1471 of 1868
I'm coming from a VT50 that has some issues with it. The set is being replaced and I can either get a F8500 or wait for the ZT60. If the ZT is being delayed until Aug (yet to be confirmed) I may go with the Samsung.

My questions, how does the F8500 compare to the VT50? What are the black levels like between the two? Are blacks better on the F8500 then the VT50? Are there brightness pops and fluctuating blacks on the F8500?

Thanks to anyone that can answer.
post #1472 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

OK, I was still trying to get through some other posts.

I was surprised to see the F8500 at the Westbury, L.I. Magnolia (in case anyone in the area would like to see it) since they told me it wasn't on display.

My initial impression was that it was close to LED brightness, but, looking at the picture, it was obviously in a pretty gross Dynamic mode. I asked for the remote and was grudgingly given one to hold briefly. I had it long enough to take it out of Dyanamic and put it in Movie mode.

Dynamic was interesting in that whites had a reddish cast to them which I generally don't see in a mode like that with other panels. This panel was not skewed to the blue as almost all others are. Interestingly it was butt up against a VT50 that was also hideously adjusted. In fact I didn't think it was possible to get a VT50 to look that bad. Congrats to Magnolia!

But it was interesting to see both sets in their ugly mode. The whites were still brighter and the overall luminance quite a bit higher on the 8500. LED brightness? Not quite, but surely brighter than any other plasma I've ever seen or owned. Nice.

Movie mode was an entirely different animal. Just beautiful and with no calibration! Life of Pi was playing and the colors in Movie mode were truly inviting as was the contrast. Shadow detail was really very nice and noise level was non-existent. Keep in mind all Movie settings were at default and I'm sure the picture could still be improved significantly from where this unit was.

So the other thing that struck me was detail. This plasma seemed to have more apparent detail than I've seen on any plasma. I say apparent detail because I'm not sure that there actually was more detail, but to the eye it sure looked that way. The nice thing about this was I saw no artifacts like over-sharpening or ringing that are a giveaway for a manufacturer hyping sharpness. One of the things I love about LED is the precise image (for lack of a better description). The 8500 seemed to have much of that 'precision'.

BTW, I have no idea if the Black Optimizer was engaged and I doubt I would have seen the difference in the Magnolia setting. As most of you know, Magnolia lighting is subdued, but not dark. I also saw no brightness popping or fluctuations of any kind.

So this set is definitely in the running for me and I look forward to seeing one of these puppies calibrated.


Hey Ken, really nice that you have seen the set in person. I like how you referred to the picture to be as precise as an LED PQ. thats what I'm looking for clear, sharp and precise. The excitement is getting higher smile.gif
post #1473 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark_b View Post

I'm coming from a VT50 that has some issues with it. The set is being replaced and I can either get a F8500 or wait for the ZT60. If the ZT is being delayed until Aug (yet to be confirmed) I may go with the Samsung.

My questions, how does the F8500 compare to the VT50? What are the black levels like between the two? Are blacks better on the F8500 then the VT50? Are there brightness pops and fluctuating blacks on the F8500?

Thanks to anyone that can answer.

The 2 pro reviews posted measure the F8500 against the VT50.......If you can wait I would wait, I dont think that the set will be dealyed (its way too early to tell).....

Pops and fluctuating blacks ahve been talked about a few times, it was mentioned in the review, but home users havent seen it (yet).....As far as pops, it was only seen when Cell light was set to 16-17 18-20 there was none see (form user reports)
post #1474 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I think we're going to need some real world observations of this mode to determine how good or bad it is. In some sense it almost sounds like a variant of 'dynamic contrast' used by some manufacturers. In my experience, at least in those cases, I've always disabled them. Hopefully the Black Optimizer is a bit more transparent in its operation.

If Chad's ANSI measurements are close to being accurate, then the F8500 has a smaller contrast range to work with than even the ST60, so something has to give, when the brightness level is raised to almost LED/LCD levels. It would require the Black Levels to Float up with the brightness range, or else deal with keeping the Blacks looking stablized with Dynamic processing adjustments; don't you think?
post #1475 of 1868
post #1476 of 1868
Does this set have a RS232 ( A/V control ) ???
post #1477 of 1868
Would I be happy with this set vs the VT50 and not getting the ZT? I have owned three different Panasonic plasmas in the past and all have had some kind of issue. It seems that the F8500 might be available in Canada now. My one retailier has it listed on the website with a sale price until April 3 so I would hope they have it. I might have to go have a look. Plus I can get the 64" F8500 for about $200 cheaper then I can get the 60" ZT60. Which would you get? Buy the smaller set for more, or would there be that much less difference that the bigger set is more justified?
post #1478 of 1868
No one knows enought aboput the Production ZT units to make that decision.......If youc an wait, Id wait...
post #1479 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark_b View Post

Would I be happy with this set vs the VT50 and not getting the ZT? I have owned three different Panasonic plasmas in the past and all have had some kind of issue. It seems that the F8500 might be available in Canada now. My one retailier has it listed on the website with a sale price until April 3 so I would hope they have it. I might have to go have a look. Plus I can get the 64" F8500 for about $200 cheaper then I can get the 60" ZT60. Which would you get? Buy the smaller set for more, or would there be that much less difference that the bigger set is more justified?

Personally I would hold off a little while, from some initial researching it seems like the "flagship" 64F8500 is roughly equal to last years VT50, and a minor step up from this years ST60's. With the new crop of VT60's and the ZT60's yet to come, I would feel some confidence that either of those 2 could easily surpass it. The one caveat there would be that F8500 does seem to be something special when it comes to brightness, so if your situation requires something that can deal with a fairly high amount of ambient lighting then it may be the best choice.
post #1480 of 1868
I may not be able to wait. My dealer informed me Panasonic is getting very impatient with the return of my faulty VT50 and the ZT won't be available until sometime in June here. I may have to go with the F8500, which if it is equal to or just better then the VT50, that's good for me. If Samsung's are more resistent to IR as well, then that's an added bonus. Plus I can get the 64" instead of the 60". The 65" ZT60 is way out of my price range, and for the extra 1" is probably $1000 more then the F8500.
post #1481 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by pred1973 View Post

Personally I would hold off a little while, from some initial researching it seems like the "flagship" 64F8500 is roughly equal to last years VT50, and a minor step up from this years ST60's. With the new crop of VT60's and the ZT60's yet to come, I would feel some confidence that either of those 2 could easily surpass it. The one caveat there would be that F8500 does seem to be something special when it comes to brightness, so if your situation requires something that can deal with a fairly high amount of ambient lighting then it may be the best choice.

curious what people think pannys will surpass f8500 in what ways?
post #1482 of 1868
Based on what the ZT60 might offer, deeper blacks, smoother gradations, and no sign of black level fluctuations.
post #1483 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark_b View Post

I may not be able to wait. My dealer informed me Panasonic is getting very impatient with the return of my faulty VT50 and the ZT won't be available until sometime in June here. I may have to go with the F8500, which if it is equal to or just better then the VT50, that's good for me. If Samsung's are more resistent to IR as well, then that's an added bonus. Plus I can get the 64" instead of the 60". The 65" ZT60 is way out of my price range, and for the extra 1" is probably $1000 more then the F8500.

If you cant wait then the F8500 is a great set, as I said IF you can wait I would, if you cant then your choices are limited.......From reviews owners seem very happy with thier sets.....The ST60 review should be out today or tomorrow with the VT60 probably sometimes in the next few weeks........So if youc an hold out a week or two you may ahve a better idea of what the best choice for you is...
post #1484 of 1868
My last question, will Panasonic's 3d glasses from last year be compatible with the F8500? They should be if they are both bluetooth.
post #1485 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

If Chad's ANSI measurements are close to being accurate, then the F8500 has a smaller contrast range to work with than even the ST60, so something has to give, when the brightness level is raised to almost LED/LCD levels. It would require the Black Levels to Float up with the brightness range, or else deal with keeping the Blacks looking stablized with Dynamic processing adjustments; don't you think?

That may be true. But I suppose the other way to look at it is if the blacks do float up as brightness increases (depending at what point this sets in), is that even visible? Very tough to see that when the screen has some significant bright areas in it.
post #1486 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark_b View Post

Would I be happy with this set vs the VT50 and not getting the ZT? I have owned three different Panasonic plasmas in the past and all have had some kind of issue. It seems that the F8500 might be available in Canada now. My one retailier has it listed on the website with a sale price until April 3 so I would hope they have it. I might have to go have a look. Plus I can get the 64" F8500 for about $200 cheaper then I can get the 60" ZT60. Which would you get? Buy the smaller set for more, or would there be that much less difference that the bigger set is more justified?

See it for yourself and decide. Not being flip, but your eyes can judge this better than anyone on the forum. smile.gif
post #1487 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

That may be true. But I suppose the other way to look at it is if the blacks do float up as brightness increases (depending at what point this sets in), is that even visible? Very tough to see that when the screen has some significant bright areas in it.

Very good point.
post #1488 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by pred1973 View Post

Personally I would hold off a little while, from some initial researching it seems like the "flagship" 64F8500 is roughly equal to last years VT50, and a minor step up from this years ST60's. With the new crop of VT60's and the ZT60's yet to come, I would feel some confidence that either of those 2 could easily surpass it. The one caveat there would be that F8500 does seem to be something special when it comes to brightness, so if your situation requires something that can deal with a fairly high amount of ambient lighting then it may be the best choice.

Having spoken with Kevin Miller last night, I can tell you he was really jazzed about the F8500 display. I trust Kevin's opinion highly and I'm really looking forward to seeing a calibrated one tomorrow.

As for whether or not the VT60s will surpass the F8500, I have no idea how you could say with any degree of confidence, that the VTs will 'easily surpass' the F8500. It's certainly a safe bet they won't from a brightness standpoint. They may (or may not) from a black level standpoint, but if so, we'll have to see by how much and how visible that is for a given viewing environment.
post #1489 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

See it for yourself and decide. Not being flip, but your eyes can judge this better than anyone on the forum. smile.gif

Unless you chose a TV that everyone disagrees on, then you will be chided for your decision and forver "marked" biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif
post #1490 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Based on what the ZT60 might offer, deeper blacks, smoother gradations, and no sign of black level fluctuations.

Vinnie, perhaps deeper blacks, but I seriously doubt anyone will be able to see 'smoother gradations' with their naked eye. wink.gif

I'm also looking at the Sony 950, so black levels there are absolutely no concern for me.
post #1491 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

Unless you chose a TV that everyone disagrees on, then you will be chided for your decision and forver "marked" biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif

Aint that the truth! You might even be banned from AVS! biggrin.gif
post #1492 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Aint that the truth! You might even be banned from AVS! biggrin.gif

Slowy steps away from Ken who seems to like to light little fires wink.gif ........
post #1493 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by ljmart View Post

curious what people think pannys will surpass f8500 in what ways?

I really don't want to get drawn into a maker/model debate. I am brand agnostic smile.gif There are reviews/initial experiences that suggest the F8500 is on par with last years VT50's in most regards. Similarly the new ST60's seem to be comparable. Not superior in any way, but comparable, as in not obviously worse. If those initial experiences hold to be true (and that is what my initial research shows, its not the final word by any means) then it is completely plausible that the higher models will surpass the F8500. As for the ways, well I won't speculate on the numbers for yet to be released products, but if A (F8500)and B(ST60) are roughly equal, then C(VT60) and D(ZT60) which are better than B(ST60), by extension they should exceed A(F8500). I suspect the F8500 will be brighter,as it seems that was the focus of the design, but thats not necessarily better across the board. Similarly a lower mll on other makes/models does not necessarily translate to better across the board either (if your room is too bright for your eyes to perceive the extra mll anyway). I will say that based on available numeric values for the F8500 vs ST60 (mll, brightness, color accuracy, ansi contrast) it seems exceedingly probable the numeric values will be significantly in favor of the ZT for many of those things than can be measured numerically.
post #1494 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Vinnie, perhaps deeper blacks, but I seriously doubt anyone will be able to see 'smoother gradations' with their naked eye. wink.gif
Maybe, but I can see evidence of posterization on darker tones when viewing BDs on my 9G. How much that has to do with the limitations of the Blu-ray format, I can't say for sure.
post #1495 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Maybe, but I can see evidence of posterization on darker tones when viewing BDs on my 9G. How much that has to do with the limitations of the Blu-ray format, I can't say for sure.

Interesting point Vinnie. I remember bringing that up to the Director of Training for Fujitsu when he used to post here (and used to be employed by Fujitsu before it exited this business). I noticed the posterization on the Fujitsu and many blamed it on the Fujitsu. At that same time I had a 34" Panasonic CRT HDTV. The same posterization occurred on the CRT as it did on the Fujitsu and at the same spots in the movie and in precisely the same degree.

When other people who had these 2 different techs tried the experiment too, they saw the same thing. So we realized this was more a limitation of the disc rather than the display.

That may well be what you're seeing too.
post #1496 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Having spoken with Kevin Miller last night, I can tell you he was really jazzed about the F8500 display. I trust Kevin's opinion highly and I'm really looking forward to seeing a calibrated one tomorrow.

As for whether or not the VT60s will surpass the F8500, I have no idea how you could say with any degree of confidence, that the VTs will 'easily surpass' the F8500. It's certainly a safe bet they won't from a brightness standpoint. They may (or may not) from a black level standpoint, but if so, we'll have to see by how much and how visible that is for a given viewing environment.

I don't want to get into an extensive debate with you, I don't have the stamina rogo has biggrin.gif but I see you in the ST60 thread as well, so you know what Chad's initial reports are. If the ST60 is measuring as favorably as it is compared to the F8500, then claiming "you have no idea" how someone could come to the conclusion that something a model or two above could easily surpass the F8500 is a bit disingenuous isn't it ?
post #1497 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by pred1973 View Post

I don't want to get into an extensive debate with you, I don't have the stamina rogo has biggrin.gif but I see you in the ST60 thread as well, so you know what Chad's initial reports are. If the ST60 is measuring as favorably as it is compared to the F8500, then claiming "you have no idea" how someone could come to the conclusion that something a model or two above could easily surpass the F8500 is a bit disingenuous isn't it ?

All Ken is doing is not assuming, becasue we all know what assuming does wink.gif ....
post #1498 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

All Ken is doing is not assuming, becasue we all know what assuming does wink.gif ....

Not sure I put logical deduction in the same category as assuming. I am using known numbers and based off comparing those numbers, then deductive reasoning would imply that if A and B are nearly equal, and C is better than B and D is better than C, then C should be equal or better than A, and D would be even better than A.

Of course we watch content and not numeric values, and numeric values don't tell the whole story, but they are objective. So when someone asks how one thing can be better than another, those objective values are what we use to represent those differences.
post #1499 of 1868
Just had my 64F8500 delivered! The set looks great but I find it a bit strange that the stand rocks a little bit. I'm disappointed that I won't be able to have it calibrated for a while. I usually have the guys at Avical do my calibrations, and they are touring in New York right now. Since I couldn't get Samsung to give me a delivery date, I missed the chance to schedule a calibration. Who knows how long it'll be before they come back here frown.gif Guess I'll have settle for a Spears and Muncil blu ray calibration for now. I'll post impressions and pics in a day or so once I've had a chance to play around with it a bit.
post #1500 of 1868
Can anyone help a brother out with some break in instructions? How long? Where can I get slides...etc.
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