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Samsung F8500 - new industry standard? [please use links to newer thread] - Page 6  

post #151 of 1868
When is this and the panny ZT available in the US? I need a tv badly.
post #152 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmarceau View Post

Wouldn't be surprised if they swiped that one, too smile.gif

Starts to make you think there could be a 4k plasma from Samsung next year, since they were able to increase the brightness this much.

Would be quite surprised if Samsung is at all motivated to pioneer 4k plasma.
post #153 of 1868
5 years ago there was a Samsung 4K Plasma prototype, never heard about it again wink.gif
http://www.electronista.com/articles/08/10/30/samsung.63.ultrahd.plasma/
post #154 of 1868
Hello ,

I'm waiting for the release of the F8500 Eu which looks very promising ...
But I keep my Kuro Plasma best I've had ... wink.gif
post #155 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speakerphile View Post

Would be quite surprised if Samsung is at all motivated to pioneer 4k plasma.

I would be, too, but it seems like Samsung really wants to beat Panasonic at plasma. I think they sold more total units this year and their OLED plans aren't too defined yet, so they still seem to pour some research into plasma.

The amount of brightness they've attained with the new technology just makes me think that any brightness issues for increased resolution have now been solved.

I think Panasonic is definitely not taking plasma or LED to 4k because of their 4k OLED plans (ok that might be up for debate but the impact of 4k to other display tech could shrink 4K OLED sales), but Samsung isn't conservative and might want to introduce 4k across multiple display types.
post #156 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speakerphile View Post

Would be quite surprised if Samsung is at all motivated to pioneer 4k plasma.

I would be, too, but it seems like Samsung really wants to beat Panasonic at plasma. I think they sold more total units this year and their OLED plans aren't too defined yet, so they still seem to pour some research into plasma.

The amount of brightness they've attained with the new technology just makes me think that any brightness issues for increased resolution have now been solved.

I think Panasonic is definitely not taking plasma or LED to 4k because of their 4k OLED plans (ok that might be up for debate but the impact of 4k to other display tech could shrink 4K OLED sales), but Samsung isn't conservative and might want to introduce 4k across multiple display types.
post #157 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speakerphile View Post

Would be quite surprised if Samsung is at all motivated to pioneer 4k plasma.

I would be, too, but it seems like Samsung really wants to beat Panasonic at plasma. I think they sold more total units this year and their OLED plans aren't too defined yet, so they still seem to pour some research into plasma.

The amount of brightness they've attained with the new technology just makes me think that any brightness issues for increased resolution have now been solved.

I think Panasonic is definitely not taking plasma or LED to 4k because of their 4k OLED plans (ok that might be up for debate but the impact of 4k to other display tech could shrink 4K OLED sales), but Samsung isn't conservative and might want to introduce 4k across multiple display types.
post #158 of 1868
Panasonic is definitely bringing 4K to LCD. But I tend to agree it is definitely not bringing it to plasma, which it is clearly trying to move away from (pick a year... 2015? 2016?).

That said, once Panasonic exits the plasma market, I believe Samsung will also exit the plasma market within 0-2 years from that.
post #159 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Panasonic is definitely bringing 4K to LCD. But I tend to agree it is definitely not bringing it to plasma, which it is clearly trying to move away from (pick a year... 2015? 2016?).

That said, once Panasonic exits the plasma market, I believe Samsung will also exit the plasma market within 0-2 years from that.

Samsung will leave the market before Pana will. Either that, or they will leave at the same time.
post #160 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speakerphile View Post

Samsung will leave the market before Pana will. Either that, or they will leave at the same time.

The fate of plasma resides in the margin of the high end enthusiast market...and the delay of viable oled.
post #161 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Panasonic is definitely bringing 4K to LCD. But I tend to agree it is definitely not bringing it to plasma, which it is clearly trying to move away from (pick a year... 2015? 2016?).

That said, once Panasonic exits the plasma market, I believe Samsung will also exit the plasma market within 0-2 years from that.

Exactly, I think their last real innovation with plasma will happen with the 2014 sets and then it's time for 4k OLED (which I think will take over as their new 'plasma') and 4k LED.

There was an article link that was posted over on HDJ in the insider forum that the F8500 and ZT60 seemed so close to OLED and for so much less money, that the author was ready to get his hands on these sets now, that it took away that need to pay a large premium for OLED that some enthusiasts who value picture quality have considered taking.

Rogo, I think you've felt for a while that these sets are basically pretty much 90% or more of what OLED will look like and that we're basically at diminishing returns. Is that still fair to say?

I wondered how close the F8500 got to looking like the 4k OLED prototypes on the showroom floor.
post #162 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speakerphile View Post

Samsung will leave the market before Pana will. Either that, or they will leave at the same time.

OK, whichever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmarceau View Post

Exactly, I think their last real innovation with plasma will happen with the 2014 sets and then it's time for 4k OLED (which I think will take over as their new 'plasma') and 4k LED.

There was an article link that was posted over on HDJ in the insider forum that the F8500 and ZT60 seemed so close to OLED and for so much less money, that the author was ready to get his hands on these sets now, that it took away that need to pay a large premium for OLED that some enthusiasts who value picture quality have considered taking.

I am intrigued by the F85000 personally. I think the ZT60 is a slightly better VT50, which means it's an awfully good TV, but it's still got some clear plasma limitations in my mind. What I'm curious about is whether the F85000 blows past any of those limitations.
Quote:

Rogo, I think you've felt for a while that these sets are basically pretty much 90% or more of what OLED will look like and that we're basically at diminishing returns. Is that still fair to say?

I wondered how close the F8500 got to looking like the 4k OLED prototypes on the showroom floor.

So I definitely think we are at the diminishing returns point and I've explained why before:

a) We have really accurate color and gamma
b) We have really good intrascene and sequential contrast
c) We have really good absolute black levels
d) We have unlimited viewing angles
e) We have solid amibent-light rejection

What we don't have on plasma, however is:

1) Freedom from moments of obvious dither and false contouring
2) Clear instances of brightness limitation on very bright content
3) Enough absolute brightness to go toe-to-toe with LCD
4) The eye-boggling intrascene contract of OLED
5) Absolute pitch black

For a lot of people, the second list is appealing enough to justify spending a lot for upgrades, but how many? That's where a critical evaluation of a set like the F8500 or VT60 gets interesting. If it can do something meaningfully better on (5), it will likely pick up (4) as a matter of course. Is the Samsung really able to deliver on (3)? And if so, it might deliver on (2). As for (1), we'll see. I can tell you a Kevin Miller-calibrated VT50 still suffers there. Blame the content / blame the technology / blame the interaction of the two. I don't care. It's there.

One problem with comparing anything shown at CES is that the demo material shown on the OLED prototypes wasn't remotely real. It wasn't Rec. 709 content. It wasn't from any source we're able to buy/stream/get at all. So, yeah, I absolutely think the newest plasmas will be close to those OLEDs in real-world performance. I don't know if "90%" is the right number, though.
post #163 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post


What we don't have on plasma, however is:

1) Freedom from moments of obvious dither and false contouring
2) Clear instances of brightness limitation on very bright content
3) Enough absolute brightness to go toe-to-toe with LCD
4) The eye-boggling intrascene contract of OLED
5) Absolute pitch black

For a lot of people, the second list is appealing enough to justify spending a lot for upgrades, but how many? That's where a critical evaluation of a set like the F8500 or VT60 gets interesting. If it can do something meaningfully better on (5), it will likely pick up (4) as a matter of course. Is the Samsung really able to deliver on (3)? And if so, it might deliver on (2). As for (1), we'll see. I can tell you a Kevin Miller-calibrated VT50 still suffers there. Blame the content / blame the technology / blame the interaction of the two. I don't care. It's there.

One problem with comparing anything shown at CES is that the demo material shown on the OLED prototypes wasn't remotely real. It wasn't Rec. 709 content. It wasn't from any source we're able to buy/stream/get at all. So, yeah, I absolutely think the newest plasmas will be close to those OLEDs in real-world performance. I don't know if "90%" is the right number, though.

I'm sort of over caring about 0 mll on plasma. I think it's not going to happen, but with enough brightness, even low apl stuff can get closer to that infinite contrast look. I can't remember if it was you that mentioned that past 10,000:1 ANSI, the human eye can't really perceive a huge difference in contrast, but there's only one set I know of that got there and that basically satisfied everyone except for the pickiest of videophiles. Even then, it was the low apl content that was a minor issue, and only because local dimming lcd sets were closer to showing that infinite black look.

There could be even more improvements for this new plasma technology down the line and the doors it opens up for enthusiasts. Hey, if there's a 'deep black algorithm II', that means there will be probably be a third.

I also wonder if OLED for Samsung is going worse than planned and there needs to be something outside of LED on the cheap that can attract consumers on the showroom floor.
post #164 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Panasonic is definitely bringing 4K to LCD. But I tend to agree it is definitely not bringing it to plasma, which it is clearly trying to move away from (pick a year... 2015? 2016?).

That said, once Panasonic exits the plasma market, I believe Samsung will also exit the plasma market within 0-2 years from that.

I'm thinking (pure speculation) maybe Panasonic will do one more plasma platform upgrade (which they have been doing every two years) starting with 2014 and and will use that through whatever year they pull the plug (2016?). There was fairly recent article somewhere that claimed Panasonic was going to pull the plug on plasma research this year which would support some of my speculation.

Edit: article @ http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1355811879
post #165 of 1868
I think it all depends on ylthis years sales, if there good they' ll continue if not they'll definitely pull the plug.
Because they lost a bundle in 2012.
post #166 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post


I am intrigued by the F85000 personally. I think the ZT60 is a slightly better VT50, which means it's an awfully good TV, but it's still got some clear plasma limitations in my mind. What I'm curious about is whether the F85000 blows past any of those limitations.

I hear ya. This is the display that might be the sleeper this year (within its competition). I am not sure if it's just a bunch of techno-marketing BS, but they are using larger pixels which is in part creating more brightness (according the the Robert Zohn Facebook interview with Samsung at CES). I wonder if this would also give a smooth, more natural, organic look to the image in general.
post #167 of 1868
As much as im excited for the F8500 - i think its price point for a 60" would be out of my reach. I'm happy with the ST50s PQ - little annoyances not withstanding. I'm hoping in 4 years 70"+ OLEDs (ST50 "best bang for buck" class) will be around $1500-$2000 or so
post #168 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

I hear ya. This is the display that might be the sleeper this year (within its competition). I am not sure if it's just a bunch of techno-marketing BS, but they are using larger pixels which is in part creating more brightness (according the the Robert Zohn Facebook interview with Samsung at CES). I wonder if this would also give a smooth, more natural, organic look to the image in general.
I wonder what practical effect this would have for the "screen door effect." I guess it would look less fine when you get in viewing range of the pixel structure. wink.gif
post #169 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerrolds View Post

As much as im excited for the F8500 - i think its price point for a 60" would be out of my reach. I'm happy with the ST50s PQ - little annoyances not withstanding. I'm hoping in 4 years 70"+ OLEDs (ST50 "best bang for buck" class) will be around $1500-$2000 or so

I highly doubt there will be a 70"+ OLED in four years. Even the most basic (mediocre) 70" Sharp LED is still in that price range. I don't believe any pricing has been listed for the F8500 yet.
post #170 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

I wonder what practical effect this would have for the "screen door effect." I guess it would look less fine when you get in viewing range of the pixel structure. wink.gif

Yeah, I would like to believe they considered such effect.
post #171 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmarceau View Post

I'm sort of over caring about 0 mll on plasma. I think it's not going to happen, but with enough brightness, even low apl stuff can get closer to that infinite contrast look. I can't remember if it was you that mentioned that past 10,000:1 ANSI, the human eye can't really perceive a huge difference in contrast, but there's only one set I know of that got there and that basically satisfied everyone except for the pickiest of videophiles. Even then, it was the low apl content that was a minor issue, and only because local dimming lcd sets were closer to showing that infinite black look.
.

Yes, the human simultaneous contrast limit is on the order of 10,000:1 or so, less at certain parts of the luminance curve. This isn't some kind of "Rogo says" stuff either. It's literally impossible for your eye to detect more magnitude than that at any one instant. It's, of course, easier to get there with a really dark black level than with an eyeball-searing white.

Ironically, though, if a Panasonic VT50 could get bright enough, it could almost do it. The darkness is low enough that it's not unrealistic and the inter-pixel light bleed is basically non-existent. So perhaps the 2013 plasmas will get us closer (Samsung's being brighter than last year, Panasonic's being blacker).

(Note: On sequential contrast, we can do millions to one as humans, some estimates go up to 10-20 million:1. Of course, your eye needs time to adjust to pull off high contrast detection in a night-time scene and then on a sunny day at the beach. And this is true watching those scenes on a television as well. Time as in minutes, not a few seconds.)

I think the point about mll on plasma, really, is that if existing plasmas could halve the black level without losing any peak whites, they'd double their ANSI contrast. That would be nice, especially if instead of straight ANSI we just mean, "could do that contrast on a scene with mixed light and dark, even if there was some really bright stuff filling up part of the screen". In other words, unaffected by ABL.
post #172 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

I highly doubt there will be a 70"+ OLED in four years. Even the most basic (mediocre) 70" Sharp LED is still in that price range. I don't believe any pricing has been listed for the F8500 yet.

Sharp will quit LCD business very soon.

It already started:
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/biz/archives/2012/12/02/2003549101
post #173 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius2 View Post

Sharp will quit LCD business very soon.

It already started:
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/biz/archives/2012/12/02/2003549101

The article does not state anything specific about them exiting the LCD business. To the contrary, why would they retain part ownership of their 10th generation plant if they planned to exit the business altogether. It certainly paints a dismal picture for their future. They are trying everything they can to stay in business. They could stay in the television business without owning their own factories though, similar to what Sony does. I think you draw a reasonable conclusion, but this article doesn't really support it.
post #174 of 1868
"Sharp hemorrhaged ¥103 billion in cash from operations in the first half of the year. The company may turn to the Japanese government for a bailout, analysts said last month."
post #175 of 1868
Plasma forum

Talking about the F8500

just sayin.... smile.gif
post #176 of 1868
Quote:
I mean that I believe the Samsung will be much less money than the Panasonic, probably $500-1000.

I think that you should be able to buy the F8500 64" within your budget by July-August, yes.

Thanks, Rogo, really hope that you are right smile.gif

Unfortunatelly the LCD, equivalent to the F8500 plasma (design wise at least, specs are a different story), according to this link http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1360049547 is going to be really expensive, at least in Europe ( 2799€ (+-3790$) for the 46" and 3799€ (+-5150$) for the 55". Insane), even if plasmas are (usually) cheaper than LCD´s, it might be a sign that Samsung is going to ask for an awful lot of money for the F8500 plasma series. If this turns to be true......well....... I like Samsung alot but Panasonic is always in my shopping list wink.gif (nearly bought the 65VT50 this Christmas).

Regards
Edited by Top_Cat - 2/5/13 at 11:57pm
post #177 of 1868
Let's just say reading the Sharp news as an "exit" is totally misreading it.

As for the Euro pricing on the F8500 plasma, I admit I have no visibility. I don't follow European pricing and don't purport to understand pricing strategies there. Keep us posted.
post #178 of 1868
Quote:
As for the Euro pricing on the F8500 plasma, I admit I have no visibility. I don't follow European pricing and don't purport to understand pricing strategies there. Keep us posted.

Well it´s not a "written rule", but usually for tv´s, if say the price in USA is 3000 $ in Europe, the price will be +-3000 € eek.gif (1$=1€) that´s why even if you have to add a tax to the price in the US (we also pay a hefty tax but it´s included in the price), tv´s (and other electronics) are a bit cheaper in your country. Lucky guys (feel a bit jealous wink.gif)

Regards
post #179 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Let's just say reading the Sharp news as an "exit" is totally misreading it.

It's kind of funny how many misreadings there have been regarding seemingly every manufacturer exiting the business. If all of them were true, TVs would no longer be manufactured by anyone any longer. smile.gif
post #180 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by Top_Cat 

Well it´s not a "written rule", but usually for tv´s, if say the price in USA is 3000 $ in Europe, the price will be +-3000 € eek.gif (1$=1€) that´s why even if you have to add a tax to the price in the US (we also pay a hefty tax but it´s included in the price), tv´s (and other electronics) are a bit cheaper in your country. Lucky guys (feel a bit jealous wink.gif)

Regards
( 1,3516$=1€ )
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