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Official Panasonic TC-PxxST60 Series thread - Page 230

post #6871 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by LABNEWF View Post

Can someone tell me if the st60 will pass 5.1 via optical using its internal O.T.A decoder?

It does.
post #6872 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blu_One View Post

^^^

It's not that bad !

LiVe shot.. big bay window 8 feet to the right of display, blinds are open (just to give an idea of reflection you see.. it's a bright room right now:


Looks great. What entertainment stand is that?
post #6873 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by sawfish View Post

It does.

I dont see this in the spec's document.

How can we tell?
post #6874 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by tripleM View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sawfish View Post

It does.

I dont see this in the spec's document.

How can we tell?

You tune to a channel and observe that your AVR reports its input signal as DD5.1.

(NB: Do not confuse this with what your AVR is outputting, which could be an upmixed version of a 2.0 input signal like Dolby PLii.)
post #6875 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob_Collins View Post

The last time I looked at the Amazon on app on the TV it doesn't report ANY content as being in 5.1 but on my Roku the same titles will report as being 5.1, so I do not think the Amazon app on the TV is capable of 5.1 (and it never delivers 5.1 to my receiver via optical).

Again, someone else in the thread confirmed this earlier on.

This is correct; the "current" March 2011 Amazon app for Panasonic devices will not pass DD 5.1. If you research this a bit, you will find this is a longstanding issue that Panasonic and Amazon know about, but refuse to fix - i.e. update the app. It is not a hardware issue, it is a software/app issue, as the Netflix and Vudu apps on Panasonic devices pass DD 5.1 just fine. I recently discovered this shortcoming when I bought my new TC-P60ST60 and DMP-BDT230. I solved the problem by returning the DMP-BDT230 and buying a Samsung BD-F5900, which passes DD 5.1 from its Amazon app just fine. The crappy Amazon app on Panasonics also does not support the Amazon "watchlist" function either, whereas the Amazon app on the Samsung does.
post #6876 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by cadett View Post

I'm starting to gravitate towards this approach. I still notice judder in 96Hz, so there is no real benefit to run it in that mode. I find that if you find the judder to be too much, engage the motion smoother & set it to low. Here's a good read
http://www.projectorcentral.com/judder_24p.htm

Running in 96 Hz with the smoother set to "weak" or running in 60 Hz with the smoother off, will likely result in a similar picture for 24 fps sources on the ST60. People are using the term "judder" to mean multiple things; however, there are only 2 types of judder:

1) 2:3 pulldown (aka Telecine) judder: This is what results when a 24 fps (Hz) source is displayed at 60 Hz. For example, assume the following 24 fps source frame sequence - 123456, etc. For a 60 Hz display, source frame 1 is displayed twice (11) for 2/60 second, source frame 2 is displayed three times (222) for 3/60 s, source frame 3 is displayed twice (33) for 2/60 s and so forth. This results in the following 60 Hz display sequence - 112223344455666, etc.

As you can see, the source frames are displayed for uneven amounts of time, with every other source frame being displayed 50% longer than the one preceding it. This type of judder or "hitching" motion is particularly noticeable in straight line/linear motion like credits.

Now, contrast this with a 24 fps source displayed at 96 Hz, where 4:4 pulldown is used instead. In this case, each source frame is evenly displayed 4 times for 4/96 s. This results in the following 96 Hz display sequence - 11112222444455556666, etc. Since in this instance there is no difference in the amout of time each source frame is displayed, no judder or hitching occurs.

2) Motion judder (aka Strobing): This is what results from the relatively low 24 fps capture rate used for most films (The Hobbit being a known exception at 48 fps). It is an inherent limitation/artifact of the low 24 fps capture rate, and is especially noticeable in fast pans (background) or when a fast object (foreground) crosses a stationary background. 24 fps simply does not have high enough motion resolution to capture fast movement.

So, with a 24 Hz source displayed at 96 Hz, the first type of judder is absent, but the second is still there. And it is likely even more visible since it is not being masked any longer (see below).

With a 24 Hz source displayed at 60 Hz, the first type of judder is present, and so is the second; however, since the first type of judder also helps to mask/smooth the second type, it becomes less noticeable. This is because the 2:3 pulldown process is typically accompanied by some kind of minimal intraframe blending/interpolation - i.e. similar to what the smoother does when set to "weak".

This is why running in 96 Hz with the smoother set to "weak" or running in 60 Hz with the smoother off, will often result in a similar picture.
Edited by areyou4real - 7/10/13 at 5:07pm
post #6877 of 12340
I thought I would add my own experiance in regards to 24p mode and some of the comments as above.

I always had thought 24p mode with a high refresh rate was better. However every TV I've had this never seemed any different to me than if I just ran it in 60hz. I've had quite a few TV's and none of them appear to display 24p "correctly" per some reviews and just watching them, there was never much difference.

Given the rainbow effect and some motion resoloution issues I decided to try turning off 24P on all sources and just run the display at 60hz.

The rainbow effect was not really an issue with my BD's but on my streaming content from my RaspBMC, even my direct 30GB remuxes of my blu rays it showed its ugly face from time to time.

I changed everything to 60hz and its much better. I really don't see much of a difference between 60hz and running at 24p at 96hz, maybe a bit smoother with some slower pans with 24p on, but really overall I think its much less eye straining to just run it at 60hz..

Rainbow effect seems non-existant running 60hz, and many panning scenes seem much more fluid although may lack a bit of detail compared to 24p but honestly I don't think its worth the eye strain.

I would strongly recommend just leaving your sets, attached devices all set to output at 60hz instead of 24p.
post #6878 of 12340
Finally got around to taking some pics of my setup. The cables aren't usually sticking out but I've been moving my computer a lot recently. Also, from where I sit, the balcony door and window blinds aren't an issue, I just wanted to take a side picture smile.gif


post #6879 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by edgeh2o View Post

Finally got around to taking some pics of my setup. The cables aren't usually sticking out but I've been moving my computer a lot recently. Also, from where I sit, the balcony door and window blinds aren't an issue, I just wanted to take a side picture smile.gif



frown.gif That's a ton of reflection! Anyone has similar pictures with a S64?
post #6880 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by radby View Post

frown.gif That's a ton of reflection! Anyone has similar pictures with a S64?

With the way the AR filter works, it's not that bad when the TV is ON and emitting light.
post #6881 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryansebiz View Post

Looks great. What entertainment stand is that?

Thx. Ikea, bought 8 years ago though. Everyone always ask about that stand for some reason..
post #6882 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by HD2Blu View Post

With the way the AR filter works, it's not that bad when the TV is ON and emitting light.

Very true
post #6883 of 12340
Thanks sawfish thats great news . much appreciated sir
post #6884 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by radby View Post

frown.gif That's a ton of reflection! Anyone has similar pictures with a S64?

No worries, I've never noticed reflection while watching and facing the display.
post #6885 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by wattheF View Post

why doesn't AVS have a mobile app?

Their mobile site works great.
Edited by ryansebiz - 7/13/13 at 2:24pm
post #6886 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryansebiz View Post

They're mobile site works great.

+1 on this ^^^
post #6887 of 12340
From the very good article: http://www.projectorcentral.com/judder_24p.htm:
Quote:
Actually, we've never seen 24 fps film quite this naked even in a commercial movie theater since the double shuttering action of the movie theater's projection system reduces the experience of judder and flicker.

Can anyone explain what the double shuttering action is and how it reduces judder?
post #6888 of 12340
post #6889 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by tripleM View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sawfish View Post

It does.

Oh Really?

Really.

That is wrong, both specifically WRT the TV they're talking about and generally WRT "most HDTVs today". Even for HDMI devices, which are the ones limited to 2ch output over the TV's optical, my understanding is that the TV isn't "downconverting" the audio; it's advertising 2ch capabilities to the HDMI device, and the HDMI device is outputting 2ch audio to it. So those two sentences contain some highly concentrated fail.

BTW, HTPC users apparently can get 5.1 channel audio through optical when connecting via HDMI by using an EDID override; here's one of many examples:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1091403/edid-override-thread/2370#post_22729030

Furthermore, it seems to work OOTB for certain HDMI devices and certain TVs, as you can tell from reading that post. ISTR my old Sony W4100 could do this, because I remember hooking it up that way before I got an HDMI-capable AVR. I recall it working for DD5.1 but giving no audio at all for DTS, which is why I ultimately settled on using HDMI (PC to TV) for video and S/PDIF (motherboard to AVR) for audio. That was like five years ago, and even though I've replaced my AVR, I still connect my HTPC this way as it avoids numerous problems like the Nvidia silent stream bug, Windows losing the TV when the AVR is turned off (I run dual monitors, and this happened the one time I tried it with my Pioneer VSX-21TXH), various HDMI handshake problems like power-on order dependencies, etc.
post #6890 of 12340
Sawfish, thanks for the info about the audio output!


I just got my 55" ST60 on Monday. I just put the picture mode on the "custom" preset and watched Avatar. It totally blew my mind. My old TV was a 1080p Sony SXRD set; while I enjoyed it for over 5 years, with this new TV I was able to see details that I simply couldn't before. The smoothness of the video is jaw-dropping (I personally enjoy the "soap opera effect"), and the blacks blew me away. And this was all uncalibrated with just the "custom" preset with the default settings. I may pass on doing the slide thing, but my understanding is that the purpose of those slides is simply to prepare the set for D-Nice's calibration.

Which leads me to my question....How long do I need to avoid letterboxed films? Last night I popped in Beowulf, and when I was about 10 minutes into it, I was like, "Oh crap, this movie's letterboxed! No no no no!" I then quickly used the zoom feature to fill the screen. I've been somewhat dismayed to find that several of my blurays are letter boxed, to include Riddick and The Dark Knight. With my old TV I didn't worry about it, but with this new one, I'm terrified of inviting IR letterbox bars onto my new panel. How long do I need to worry about this? At some point can I just relax and not worry about a movie that's not exactly 16:9? I don't like zooming.



Anyhow, I thought someone might enjoy a pic of my setup. I found an old turn-table cabinet to use for the stand; I think it looks kind of cool; it's also solid as a rock. You can often find them at thrift stores for pretty cheap.
post #6891 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by lukaspriest View Post

Sawfish, thanks for the info about the audio output!


I just got my 55" ST60 on Monday. I just put the picture mode on the "custom" preset and watched Avatar. It totally blew my mind. My old TV was a 1080p Sony SXRD set; while I enjoyed it for over 5 years, with this new TV I was able to see details that I simply couldn't before. The smoothness of the video is jaw-dropping (I personally enjoy the "soap opera effect"), and the blacks blew me away. And this was all uncalibrated with just the "custom" preset with the default settings. I may pass on doing the slide thing, but my understanding is that the purpose of those slides is simply to prepare the set for D-Nice's calibration.

Which leads me to my question....How long do I need to avoid letterboxed films? Last night I popped in Beowulf, and when I was about 10 minutes into it, I was like, "Oh crap, this movie's letterboxed! No no no no!" I then quickly used the zoom feature to fill the screen. I've been somewhat dismayed to find that several of my blurays are letter boxed, to include Riddick and The Dark Knight. With my old TV I didn't worry about it, but with this new one, I'm terrified of inviting IR letterbox bars onto my new panel. How long do I need to worry about this? At some point can I just relax and not worry about a movie that's not exactly 16:9? I don't like zooming.

Congrats on the new set. I would say since you didn't go the Dnice prep route use the Home Theater preset. It is the most accurate out of the box setting. You could also try applying Dnice or other peoples custom settings to see how they look on your set. Keep in mind your panel will take about 300 hours to break in.

As far as worrying about IR...You will hear MANY different opinions from different people around here on the topic. It does seem that some panels are more prone to it than others. Some say your panel is more sensitive to IR during break in period as well. I would just try to minimize stationery logo's and black bars a little bit for the first 100 hrs.

Generally speaking my rule of thumb has always been vary your viewing content. Use good common sense. There is nuthing wrong with watching a few hours of ESPN or a movie or two with black bars or even gaming. The problem of stubborn and persitent IR will arise when you do any ONE of those things over and over again every day without mixing in other content.

Remember IR is temporary. I suggest you don't go looking for IR either. My set actually gets it very easily but it usually isn't noticeable with regular content from normal viewing distances and it always goes away very quicky because I naturally vary my content.

Don't worry about it too much . Just enjoy your TV!

Edited by wattheF - 7/10/13 at 2:43pm
post #6892 of 12340
^^^BTW, I did the Dnice prep and his settings don't look as good on my set as the Home Theater preset setting. This is due to panel variance. I plan on having Chad B calibrate my set some time soon.
post #6893 of 12340

This wrong and sawfish is correct. The ST60 will pass DD from its optical out as long as the DD signal originates from the OTA tuner or a TV-based app.

"The TV will only output a 5.1 signal from the optical output when the signal is coming from a digital over the air channel, a digital basic cable channel with no cable box, or when one of the Viera Connect applications is feeding the TV a 5.1 signal. We recommend you connect your source devices to your receiver first and then connect an HDMI from the receiver to the TV to feed the TV the picture and sound."
http://answers.shop.panasonic.com/answers/9203/product/TC-P65ST60_support/questions.htm?sort=recentq

Others on AVS have confirmed this as well.
post #6894 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by areyou4real View Post

This wrong and sawfish is correct. The ST60 will pass DD from its optical out as long as the DD signal originates from the OTA tuner or a TV-based app.

"The TV will only output a 5.1 signal from the optical output when the signal is coming from a digital over the air channel, a digital basic cable channel with no cable box, or when one of the Viera Connect applications is feeding the TV a 5.1 signal. We recommend you connect your source devices to your receiver first and then connect an HDMI from the receiver to the TV to feed the TV the picture and sound."
http://answers.shop.panasonic.com/answers/9203/product/TC-P65ST60_support/questions.htm?sort=recentq

Others on AVS have confirmed this as well.

I think the author's quote is a sweeping generalization not specific to the parameters you listed: OTA tuner or a TV-based app.

Since all audio systems sends out PCM tracks -PCM in & of itself isn't downconverting anything - my interest would lie in what the receiving component does with that signal - unzip it in as sent or do nothing.

IMO - could the author possibly be misapplying the 'downconverting' terminology?
Thus, the ST60 is still packaging a DD5.1 track but since - according to the parameter of it being non-OTA signal - would output 2-channel stereo since no downconverting is taking place via PCM.
Edited by tripleM - 7/11/13 at 8:30am
post #6895 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by wattheF View Post

^^^BTW, I did the Dnice prep and his settings don't look as good on my set as the Home Theater preset setting. This is due to panel variance. I plan on having Chad B calibrate my set some time soon.
I agree. I used his settings and home theater was better. That's what I'm using until I have my set calibrated.
post #6896 of 12340
For anyone that uses a PS3 as their Blu-Ray player, what video/display settings do you have?
post #6897 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saevio View Post



thank you guys/gals(dont want to assume)
really appreciate the feed back and I'm going to follow your advice.
now just to do some price comparison and searching and blah blah.

im looking forward to setting it all up and coming back and chatting more!

The best "deal" I found was at Sears. I bought the 60ST60 last month, and started a Sears card. I got 5% of the purchase price, and $15 dollars off on my first statement. There was also a rebate for a free touch pen. I also found a $30 off coupon for a square trade 4 year warranty.
post #6898 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack25 View Post

For anyone that uses a PS3 as their Blu-Ray player, what video/display settings do you have?
Are you asking about the PS3 settings? or the TV?
post #6899 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by fester99 View Post

Are you asking about the PS3 settings? or the TV?
The PS3 settings used on this TV.
post #6900 of 12340
I've been following this thread for about 3 weeks since our 8-9 year old 50" Panny Plasma suddenly died. I bought the 60" after reading reviews here on AVS and CNET.
Now, after two weeks - unlike most others here - am not sure I made the right decision!

The picture is somewhat better than our old screen. HOWEVER, it is overly DARK. I have tried using the various calibrations posted here and on CNET. In the daytime, it is really dark. At night, the picture is just light enough, in most cases, to be very good. We never had trouble, day or night, with out old panel.
We have a 5 y.o. 50" Panny Plasma in our other home that has a wall of 9 ft tall windows about 8 feet to the left of the screen. No problem with the picture ever being too dark to watch during the day.

I started reading many of the original posts on this subject line. I have only seen one or two posts referring to this "problem".

Is there a series of settings that would help improve visibility in daylite?

============
Right after I got this panel, I commented on the ugliness of the shiny bezel and ultra brite silver border. I found that about 7 weeks ago there were 2-3 pages of discussions on this subject. It appeared that a sizable majority either had no objection to the ugliness or was willing to overlook it. This is in our "second" home - so if I can overcome the daytime "dark picture" problem, will overlook it as well.


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