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Official Panasonic TC-PxxST60 Series thread - Page 239

post #7141 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by samijubal View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

There are two ways an AVR will add audio delay. The first is if the owner sets audio delay to a value greater than zero. The second would be if the AVR thought it was doing video processing and automatically added the correct amount of audio delay to compensate for the time taken for video processing.

If video is being passed straight through the AVR without processing, then there should be a setting that would prevent the AVR from adding unneeded audio delay.

Our Denon 3312, and before that the Denon 3806, passed through video untouched and didn't add any audio delay. Both AVRs have been checked with the WoW disk, and calibrated by UMR so I'm confident that I'm not missing any audio delay. smile.gif

Of course there are many instances when sync problems are in the original source material.

Sync issues have nothing to do with the receiver, they are from the video processing in the TV. The TV can't have 70 ms video lag and the receiver be synced with it, it's not possible unless the source is out of sync or the receiver adds a delay, that's what the delay on receivers is there for. If the receiver is synced with the TV without any user delay added, then the receiver is doing some type of audio processing that's adding audio delay to it, either that or the source is out of sync.

If the audio is coming from the TV to the receiver then it may be in sync without adding a delay, the TV may delay the output audio the way it does when using the internal speakers.
I don't seem to be able to understand what you're writing. Sorry about that. If you have professional credentials let us know, and we'll try harder. confused.gifbiggrin.gif
post #7142 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

I don't seem to be able to understand what you're writing. Sorry about that. If you have professional credentials let us know, and we'll try harder. confused.gifbiggrin.gif

The TV has at least 70 ms or so video delay, CNET has it at 73.6 ms, from the internal video processing, that's been very well documented in both this thread and the input lag thread, CNET as well. If the TV has 70 ms video delay, the receiver has to have the same amount of audio delay to be synced with the TV's video. It's that simple.
Edited by samijubal - 7/28/13 at 3:02am
post #7143 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by VetteVert View Post

This may have been asked already...apologies if it has.

Would this tv be acceptable in a brighter room (8 windows, no shades) over an led? I read good reviews of the filter, but wanted to hear from actual owners. I currently have a Samsung 52" ln52a860 in this room, for reference.



I have this tv in a very bright room 7x10 east facing window with no blinds and several other windows that do have blinds and it works great. I originally had the s60 but it had to many reflections and I found it a bit to dim. As long as the sun does not directly hit the screen the tv will work great.
Edited by hofulstrof - 7/28/13 at 8:41am
post #7144 of 12340
I really want to buy this set on the strength of this forum alone, but living with a six-year-old LCD, I really thought I'd be floored by the ST60, even on the showroom floor.

I wasn't. I popped in the settings specified here, but letter boxed content had muddy grey bars instead of black. The motion artifacts were as bad as I've ever seen and the details in the dark areas was just grey—no detail.

I know rationally that the showroom is a horrible place to judge a TV's picture quality, but if someone wouldn't mind saying it once more, it'd ease my mind.

(This'll be heading for the basement—almost no light. I just want something good to watch a little NFL and college basketball on. It'll also last me at least 6-10 years…so it ups the ante on making a "right" decision.)
post #7145 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by samijubal View Post

The TV has at least 70 ms or so video delay, CNET has it at 73.6 ms, from the internal video processing, that's been very well documented in boths thread asd the input lag thread, CNET as well. If the TV has 70 ms video delay, the rceiver has to have the same amount of audio delay to be synced with the TV's video. It's that simple.

From my personal experience, I do agree with this. While setting up my ST60 a few months ago, I had to set the audio delay on my receiver to around 70ms. Some people may not notice (and may not be as anal about audio sync perfection lol), but I just thought I would share my experience with the issue. To me it made sense that if the TV has 70ms of video input lag (from the source, ie bu-ray player or cable box), the audio would then be out of sync from the TV (70ms ahead of the TV). My setup is using hdmi for all video sources, and toslink (dig optical) for audio sources straight to the receiver (so, it does not pass through the TV itself). I have used the built in tv speakers a couple of times (just to test them out) and the audio from them IS completely in sync with the picture. So if you use the TV itelf for your audio output, you are fine. For anyone using a receiver who are wanting to test this stuff out, its as simple as turning up the volume on the tv at the same time as your receiver. You will hear they either are in sync (or close to it) or you will hear a very noticeable echo/delay between the two.... Approximately 70ms of it. smile.gif
post #7146 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathanziarek View Post

II wasn't. I popped in the settings specified here, but letter boxed content had muddy grey bars instead of black. The motion artifacts were as bad as I've ever seen and the details in the dark areas was just grey—no detail.

It could have been the source material or the show room using a composite connection. My BestBuy uses composite for their big wall of TVs.

See if you can them to hook up a blu ray player using hdmi and then see how it looks.

i can assure you that on Custom with Warm2, a good source, and just a little work on your part, the blacks will be very dark with excellent shadow detail.
post #7147 of 12340
If you are only going to be watching sports, I don't know that this would be the right TV for you. Its strengths are deep blacks and superb picture quality. Sports would definitely look great on this TV, but it's a compressed signal, with lots of static on-screen logos that could produce IR / burn-in if you don't mix it up with other kinds of content. And if you're not watching movies on Blu-ray, or other kinds of TV shows on it, the extra level of PQ may not even matter for you. A new LCD type set could be a better fit for you.
post #7148 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by ricemanva View Post

I can assure you that on Custom with Warm2, a good source…

All my tv is either OTA or streaming (iTunes, Netflix, Hulu). My other worry is that a better TV will really show off the poor quality of these sources. Thoughts on that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ricemanva View Post

…and just a little work on your part, the blacks will be very dark with excellent shadow detail.

That's what I needed to hear. Thanks!
post #7149 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbri View Post

…static on-screen logos that could produce IR / burn-in if you don't mix it up with other kinds of content. And if you're not watching movies on Blu-ray, or other kinds of TV shows on it, the extra level of PQ may not even matter for you. A new LCD type set could be a better fit for you.

I thought the burn in was more of a myth than a real issue at this point. We watch a good amount of streaming TV (probably more than is healthy, but whatever), but college hoops is about the only thing I really care about. That's only 6 hours a week max, though.

Should I still be worries about burn in?
post #7150 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by samijubal View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

I don't seem to be able to understand what you're writing. Sorry about that. If you have professional credentials let us know, and we'll try harder. confused.gifbiggrin.gif

The TV has at least 70 ms or so video delay, CNET has it at 73.6 ms, from the internal video processing, that's been very well documented in both this thread and the input lag thread, CNET as well. If the TV has 70 ms video delay, the receiver has to have the same amount of audio delay to be synced with the TV's video. It's that simple.
Are you concerned about lip sync or gaming?

I don't own a ST60, and can't dispute the time that these models may take to process video. I do wonder why the delay would always be about 70ms. How much delay is introduced if the input signal is 1080p? Is the delay different for 1080i, 720p or 480i input?
Edited by htwaits - 7/28/13 at 1:06pm
post #7151 of 12340
I've read that Colour Gamut should be left on normal, but it makes the PQ look so washed out. Any suggestions?
post #7152 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by ricemanva View Post

It could have been the source material or the show room using a composite connection. My BestBuy uses composite for their big wall of TVs.

See if you can them to hook up a blu ray player using hdmi and then see how it looks.

i can assure you that on Custom with Warm2, a good source, and just a little work on your part, the blacks will be very dark with excellent shadow detail.

+1-My 65ST60 has exceded my expectations and that includes 2D and 3D.
post #7153 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

Are you concerned about lip sync or gaming?

I don't own a ST60, and can't dispute the time that these models may take to process video. I do wonder why the delay would always be about 70ms. How much delay is introduced if the input signal is 1080p? Is the delay different for 1080i, 720p or 480i input?

Lip sync. I haven't had any problems playing the games I play. People here are saying that the TV syncs to a receiver without any delay, that is just not true. All HDTVs delay the video due to video processing.

I believe the 70 ms is 1080p with enhancements off, any enhancements will add more delay. From my experience different resolutions don't make any difference but I don't have equipment to test exact delay times so I don't know if that's the case or I just don't see any difference.
post #7154 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by sawfish View Post

You will hear it when enough APL coincides with enough quietness. My favorite example has to be the typical Family Guy living room scene. It's bright, and it's often just dialogue, with no background music to mask the buzzing. In a quiet room, buzzing is easily audible 10 feet away.

New favorite example: "Life of Pi", during the interview at the end. The buzzing goes up and down dramatically as the scene shifts back and forth between Pi and the insurance guys, and there's no background noise to mask it.
Quote:
That said, I can go hours watching a wide variety of other material and never notice any buzzing.

And that describes the rest of the movie for me.
post #7155 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by samijubal View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

Are you concerned about lip sync or gaming?

I don't own a ST60, and can't dispute the time that these models may take to process video. I do wonder why the delay would always be about 70ms. How much delay is introduced if the input signal is 1080p? Is the delay different for 1080i, 720p or 480i input?

People here are saying that the TV syncs to a receiver without any delay, that is just not true. All HDTVs delay the video due to video processing.
I think you may be going too far with statements like "that is just not true". smile.gif

As I pointed out earlier, I haven't detected any lip sync problems either before or after UMR's audio calibration visits. At least in the Blu-ray signal path, the Wow disk doesn't detect any either. Our Blu-ray player insures that audio is in sync with video as the signal is sent to the AVR. I'll double check the cable box path.
post #7156 of 12340
Been somewhat of a lurker off and on for a while. I just joined because I'm taking delivery for a 60ST60 on Wednesday and had a couple of specific questions that I haven't seen covered in the MANY pages I've read through so far.

The ST is replacing a Samsung PN58B550 that I've had for a couple of years. I did some aging with some slides on that panel, but didn't do it constantly because it was the ONLY TV in the house. It got some burn-in from a static logo of the local news station we watch in the morning. I got authorization to replace it through my Geek Squad Black Tie Protection plan and was given a deal on the ST from an old manager of mine from when I still worked for Best Buy.

- My current set-up has my 360, PS3, Wii, and U-verse DVR running through my Denon AVR-591 then to the B550 via 1 HDMI cable. When the ST gets here, all I need to do is plug that HDMI into the ARC (HDMI 2?) so that it will send back the sound from the apps, correct?

- I bought this power cable for the B550 since it's mounted on a rock fireplace (it doesn't get hot up there) and couldn't run power close enough to it. Will I be able to use that same power cable with the ST60? I have seen in the manual the picture of the power cable showing a built in clip, but I couldn't tell for sure if it would accept this power cable as well.

I'll continue going through this thread to continue building up the anticipation for when it gets here. The pictures I've seen from some of you has me extremely excited.
post #7157 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by samijubal View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

Are you concerned about lip sync or gaming?

I don't own a ST60, and can't dispute the time that these models may take to process video. I do wonder why the delay would always be about 70ms. How much delay is introduced if the input signal is 1080p? Is the delay different for 1080i, 720p or 480i input?

People here are saying that the TV syncs to a receiver without any delay, that is just not true. All HDTVs delay the video due to video processing.
I think you may be going too far with statements like "that is just not true". smile.gif

As I pointed out earlier, I haven't detected any lip sync problems either before or after UMR's audio calibration visits. At least in the Blu-ray signal path, the Wow disk doesn't detect any either. Our Blu-ray player insures that audio is in sync with video as the signal is sent to the AVR. I'll double check the cable box path.
After checking our Denon AVR, it's clear that the cable DVR source (480i, 720p, and 1080i) is being converted to 1080p by our AVR before going to the display. The AVR must be automatically inserting any audio delay needed to compensate for the video processing it does. All inputs to the Kuro are over a single HDMI connection from the AVR at 1080p, and there is no perceptible problem with lip sync. The AVR's overall audio delay control is set to zero.
post #7158 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

I think you may be going too far with statements like "that is just not true". smile.gif

As I pointed out earlier, I haven't detected any lip sync problems either before or after UMR's audio calibration visits. At least in the Blu-ray signal path, the Wow disk doesn't detect any either. Our Blu-ray player insures that audio is in sync with video as the signal is sent to the AVR. I'll double check the cable box path.

You don't even own this TV so why do you insist on arguing about it? 70 ms video delay means there has to be 70 ms audio delay to sync, period. This isn't rocket science. I'm done here.
post #7159 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by samijubal View Post

I believe the 70 ms is 1080p with enhancements off, any enhancements will add more delay. From my experience different resolutions don't make any difference but I don't have equipment to test exact delay times so I don't know if that's the case or I just don't see any difference.
I dont doubt this. All Im saying is that I read many audio and video threads everyday and it is rare that someone has a question about lip sync delays. I have never had a problem with it and if it was something that everyone had to set manually according to their specific avr/tv combination I think there would be a lot more people asking about it.
post #7160 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by samijubal View Post

I believe the 70 ms is 1080p with enhancements off, any enhancements will add more delay. From my experience different resolutions don't make any difference but I don't have equipment to test exact delay times so I don't know if that's the case or I just don't see any difference.
I dont doubt this. All Im saying is that I read many audio and video threads everyday and it is rare that someone has a question about lip sync delays. I have never had a problem with it and if it was something that everyone had to set manually according to their specific avr/tv combination I think there would be a lot more people asking about it.
Chad B might be a good professional to ask (PM) since he has calibrated more ST60 sets than anyone we know about. He also does audio calibrations.

I'm still not sure I understand your point samijubal. Are you saying that a 1080p HDMI input to a ST60 is going to require a 70 ms audio delay correction, and that any video enhancements, up scaling or deinterlacing would take no additional video processing time?

Like Bond, I've never experienced anything that would make me think that. In our case, every signal reaching our display is 1080p and we have no sync problems.
post #7161 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathanziarek View Post

All my tv is either OTA or streaming (iTunes, Netflix, Hulu). My other worry is that a better TV will really show off the poor quality of these sources. Thoughts on that?
That's what I needed to hear. Thanks!
My setup is ITUNES APPLE TV and no cable.

This set shows the opposite. It shows how close ATV3 and Hulu and Netflix are to Bluray. The video is as good as Bluray, the audio us lagging behind just a little. But with a SONOS playbar, and SONOS sub, in a living room. Perfect
post #7162 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathanziarek View Post

I thought the burn in was more of a myth than a real issue at this point. We watch a good amount of streaming TV (probably more than is healthy, but whatever), but college hoops is about the only thing I really care about. That's only 6 hours a week max, though.

Should I still be worries about burn in?
Nope
post #7163 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

I dont doubt this. All Im saying is that I read many audio and video threads everyday and it is rare that someone has a question about lip sync delays. I have never had a problem with it and if it was something that everyone had to set manually according to their specific avr/tv combination I think there would be a lot more people asking about it.

Some people see it, some don't, it's that simple. Wheather people see it or not, it's there. Most receivers have an audio delay, some DVD players also, so the people who do see it simply adjust the delay. There's no reason to post in a forum. The amount of video delay varies greatly from one TV model to another and it can be as low as 20 ms which most people probably aren't going to notice. There's people on here who don't see 70 ms. It would take pretty discerning eyes/ears to see 20 ms audio/video difference, especially when you're not looking for it, which most people probably aren't. I've seen many sources be out of sync so people may just be used to it. It's only there when using a receiver. The internal speakers are delayed to sync with the video.

I'll give you a very simple way to see how far off the audio is with no delay. Use an external source not an internal one. If the receiver has a delay set it to zero and turn off any audio/video enhancements, do the same with any TV enhancements, then turn on the receiver volume and the TV speaker volume, that echo is how far out of sync they are. When the receiver audio matches the TV audio that's how much delay the receiver needs.
Edited by samijubal - 7/29/13 at 5:57am
post #7164 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathanziarek View Post

I thought the burn in was more of a myth than a real issue at this point. We watch a good amount of streaming TV (probably more than is healthy, but whatever), but college hoops is about the only thing I really care about. That's only 6 hours a week max, though.

Should I still be worries about burn in?

It is not a myth, so much as a non-issue for most people when using under normal (or somewhat mindful/careful) conditions.

If you watch other kinds of material on the TV, and not just sports, that will help, and changes the equation. There would be a problem if you are only watching something like news channels (with static logos and on-screen graphics) or sports games (with static scoreboards, etc.).

But if you mix up the programming mix, (ie., 2-4 hours a day, or about 20 hours a week of non sports), there is much less chance for any long-term IR issues to occur.
post #7165 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by samijubal View Post

Some people see it, some don't, it's that simple. Wheather people see it or not, it's there. Most receivers have an audio delay, some DVD players also, so the people who do simply adjust the delay. There's no reason to post in a forum. The amount of video delay varies greatly from one TV model to another and it can be as low as 20 ms which most people probably aren't going to notice. There's people on here who don't see 70 ms. It would take pretty discerning eyes/ears to see 20 ms audio/video difference, especially when you're not looking for it, which most people probably aren't. I've seen many sources be out of sync so people may just be used to it. It's only there when using a receiver. The internal speakers are delayed to sync with the video.

I'll give you a very simple way to see how far off the audio is with no delay. Use an external source not an internal one. If the receiver has a delay set it to zero and turn off any audio/video enhancements, do the same with any TV enhancements, then turn on the receiver volume and the TV speaker volume, that echo is how far out of sync they are. When the receiver audio matches the TV audio that's how much delay the receiver needs.
I agree with this 100%, and suggested in a previous post that people try the same thing. If others are not having issues with audio syncing, that is great. Their audio receiver must be adjusting to the lag via a built in audio delay. Truth is that the delay does exist, and some people will need to adjust for it. I think that is all me and samijubal are trying to tell (and suggest to) people. This all started with another member asking if anyone has noticed out of sync audio, after all.
post #7166 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathanziarek View Post

I really want to buy this set on the strength of this forum alone, but living with a six-year-old LCD, I really thought I'd be floored by the ST60, even on the showroom floor.

I wasn't. I popped in the settings specified here, but letter boxed content had muddy grey bars instead of black. The motion artifacts were as bad as I've ever seen and the details in the dark areas was just grey—no detail.

I know rationally that the showroom is a horrible place to judge a TV's picture quality, but if someone wouldn't mind saying it once more, it'd ease my mind.
I bought my ST60 on the basis of professional reviews (starting with the stellar C-Net review) and what "real" people were saying on the forums. I looked around, found that they were disappearing in a hurry and managed to get the last one at a Sear (and not the closest Sears to me, either). In addition to the one I got, they only had the one on the showroom and it looked... terrible. I don't know what source they were feeding it but it looked muddy, grainy and banded and the colors were off. I even told the salesman that I hoped they looked better at home than on the showroom floor. The Samsung LCD next to it looked WAY better.

I got the TV home, did 100 hours of DNice slides, dialed in first one set then another set of values from some post-calibration sets posted and started to watch. I had previously thought that my Samsung DLP with the LED light engine was once of the best-looking sets I'd ever seen for anywhere near the money. This set blows the Sammy away (and not just because the DLP chip was failing and getting stuck pixels). The comments you hear about "inky blacks" are NOT exaggerated. Color is great, detail is great, contrast is great, everything is great. Now, I'm not a big user of the "smart" apps and I'm not impressed with the streaming video I've seen from either Netflix or Amazon. It's not the set as I've tried them from other streaming devices. And I have no interest in 3D whatsoever and wish I could buy as good a set as this without paying for 3D, but I am still very, VERY pleased with it. I've got it in a fairly bright room and it looks great. At night, it looks even greater. In your dark basement, it ought to be spectacular.
post #7167 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathanziarek View Post

I really want to buy this set on the strength of this forum alone, but living with a six-year-old LCD, I really thought I'd be floored by the ST60, even on the showroom floor.


I know rationally that the showroom is a horrible place to judge a TV's picture quality, but if someone wouldn't mind saying it once more, it'd ease my mind.

(This'll be heading for the basement—almost no light. I just want something good to watch a little NFL and college basketball on. It'll also last me at least 6-10 years…so it ups the ante on making a "right" decision.)

In the basement with no bright sunlight - the picture will be perfect. I went solely on the reviews here and on CNET. The mistake I made, since this went in the living room, I didn't notice how ugly it would look just sitting on the wall. It has a very reflective shiny black bezel surrounded by a mirror like silver border. Our old 9 y.o. Panny plasma had a "handsome" dull black (unobtrusive) bezel. It died suddenly and this is in our 2nd home and needed to be replaced rather quickly. While the picture is top notch, not sure I'd buy this again. In a dark basement, the highly reflective bezel and border might not be a problem. Others here have said you get used to it. I am more concious of the "ugliness" when it is off than when watching a program.
post #7168 of 12340
Why can't motion smoother be turned on for ps3?
post #7169 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack25 View Post

Why can't motion smoother be turned on for ps3?

Is "game mode" on?
post #7170 of 12340
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamHD View Post

Is "game mode" on?
Yep. So that's why. biggrin.gif
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