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Netflix adds 3D and Super HD - Page 6

post #151 of 1172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apostate View Post

I agree with you 100% and I'd like to add sooner rather than after Netflix wastes time learning that its tactic is not helping its customers.
What makes the situation even more unfortunate is that Netflix has already lowered the bitrate of the streams of the content that their current subscribers can get before they could insure that those very same subscribers had access to the higher quality content and not the other way around. In simple terms I guess you could say that Netflix has lowered the quality and value of their service for no corresponding reduction in cost to the subscriber. But that seems to be the way Netflix has been doing things lately, shoot first and ask questions later, so to speak.
post #152 of 1172
Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan View Post


What makes the situation even more unfortunate is that Netflix has already lowered the bitrate of the streams of the content that their current subscribers can get before they could insure that those very same subscribers had access to the higher quality content and not the other way around. In simple terms I guess you could say that Netflix has lowered the quality and value of their service for no corresponding reduction in cost to the subscriber

 

The quality of service is defined by the image not the amount of bandwidth. The better compression they rolled out helps everyone. I know when I used AT&T I would have been thrilled as I stopped streaming a few months since I would have gone over my cap. Not to mention all of those involved in the delivery...

post #153 of 1172
The HD streams look good (well except Low & Medium SD) and use less bandwidth. I am not complaining about it.
post #154 of 1172
Example: Comcast wants $60 from me for basic cable and high-speed internet. They want $55 for just high-speed internet. Obviously, I would be subsidizing their cable TV service if I took this offer. How does this jive with what we think Netflix is doing?


I think this whole thing is more political than anything else. I am not ruling out an act of desperation. We will know a lot more when Netflix's earnings come out soon.
post #155 of 1172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

The quality of service is defined by the image not the amount of bandwidth. The better compression they rolled out helps everyone. I know when I used AT&T I would have been thrilled as I stopped streaming a few months since I would have gone over my cap. Not to mention all of those involved in the delivery...

It is certainly true that better compression that allows same or better image quality at lower bandwidth is good.

The problem is we have no objective way of telling if the image quality is as good. There are quite a few in this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/t/1440503/odd-netflix-issue-x-high-hd-no-longer-available) who think the new HD (not SuperHD) streams are softer than the old HD streams.

So we have to take Netflix's word for it that the reduced bandwidth streams are similar quality. It would be great if they gave us some evidence to support this.

(I know I am guessing again smile.gif )
post #156 of 1172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taperwood View Post

We will know a lot more when Netflix's earnings come out soon.

See my post here
post #157 of 1172
post #158 of 1172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

The issue is far too complex to pass judgement with little or no facts. Take the simple is it cheaper to host (have local) or let the traffic travel through my Internet backbone connections. They both have related costs and without countless number of variables thrown in (a unique set per provider) there is no way of drawing any reasonable conclusions.

We don't always have some or all of the facts - but an open discussion is a great way to share views, discuss issues and maybe (or maybe not) find a common thread.

Polite discussion and sharing views is always preferable.

I freely admit I could be wrong and love to hear alternate views - I think this is point of these forums - right?
Edited by undecided - 1/19/13 at 12:45am
post #159 of 1172
Quote:
Originally Posted by undecided View Post

I think this is point of these forums - right?

 

Discussion certainly is its value. What I meant by pass judgement is when tunnel vision leads one to profess conclusions to justify one's desires.

post #160 of 1172
Undecided, Thanks for the links. I picked two at random to start, Huff Post and DSL reports. Interestingly, both were generally favorable towards Netflix's position. Two paragraph's from the Huff Post link jumped out at me:

Netflix's push for Open Connect isn't arbitrary; Internet providers can currently charge Netflix (as well as other video-streaming companies like YouTube) high prices for delivering video. Netflix decided to cut costs last summer by building its own system to deliver high-bandwidth content to consumers.

But Time Warner Cable and several other U.S. cable companies decided they'd rather keep charging Netflix for content delivery and refused to support Open Connect. Netflix upped the ante with its 3D and Super HD announcement last week, and now Time Warner is complaining about the arrangement, saying it's unfair that Netflix is taking steps to prevent getting charged for high-bandwidth content delivery.
post #161 of 1172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taperwood View Post

...Internet providers can currently charge Netflix (as well as other video-streaming companies like YouTube) high prices for delivering video. Netflix decided to cut costs last summer by building its own system to deliver high-bandwidth content to consumers.

I find that hard to believe. Netflix's traffic comes into their networks from a myriad different server addresses on at least three different commercial CDNs. How do they discern Netflix's traffic from that of any other services using those CDNs? I can see where the ISPs could charge the CDN companies for their traffic into their networks.

I don't hear Netflix asking to get around those charges. They say, on their Open Connect page:
Quote:
ISPs can directly connect their networks to Open Connect for free. ISPs can do this either by free peering with us at common Internet exchanges, or can save even more transit costs by putting our free storage appliances in or near their network.

That sounds as though someone has to pay to get Netflix's (or any other CDN's) traffic across the Internet backbone to an ISP's network and that Netflix is willing to pay that. How Netflix's reduces their bottom line is by removing the middleman (the commercial CDNs).
post #162 of 1172
I'm taking a wild guess here, but if Google can shove ads at me all day based on what I've searched for in the last week, regardless of what web site I'm on, I think an ISP can figure out out how much data I stream from Netflix regardless of which CDN it came through. Like I said, though, that's just a guess. I really don't know how private my internet activity is in relation to my ISP. I've always assumed they could know everywhere I go if they wanted to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

I find that hard to believe. Netflix's traffic comes into their networks from a myriad different server addresses on at least three different commercial CDNs. How do they discern Netflix's traffic from that of any other services using those CDNs? I can see where the ISPs could charge the CDN companies for their traffic into their networks..

I did read through the rest of the links Undecided posted. Except for the Motherboard one, they all were neutral or slightly biased in favor of Netflix's position. The comment sections were even more revealing on all the links; there is very little sympathy for ISP's who also are cable TV providers.
post #163 of 1172
From this Broadband Reports blog post:
Quote:
Sonic.net CEO Dane Jasper, who has signed up to be a Netflix Open Connect partner, tells me that participating isn't really all that big of a deal, nor much of a headache for the benefits it delivers to users.

"It's an easy process, just like Akamai or any other CDN edge cache," notes Jasper. "Depending upon scale of the service provider, it's one or more servers, deployed at one or more locations in the service provider network." Jasper said his ISP was already part of Open Connect because they directly peer with Netflix today. "Due to ongoing growth in usage, we are also deploying Open Connect servers in our network core shortly too," said Jasper.

That sounds as though what Netflix is asking isn't any different from the way that the ISPs deal with the existing commercial CDNs. (Also it sounds as though Sonic.net peers Netflix at an Internet Exchange Point (something which posts in this thread have argued to be unlikely for an ISP to do), and plan to take some of Netflix's storage servers into their network to reduce costs.

I kind of wanted to hear from some of the ISPs who were set up for Open Connect on day one, to see why they were willing to do it if it was such an unreasonable ask; hopefully there will be more comments from them. It'd be especially interesting to hear Cablevision's views, them being probably the largest of them.
post #164 of 1172
What would be interesting to understand is why most of the ISPs haven't signed up for Open Connect in the 6+ months since it was launched in June 2012

http://www.digitaltrends.com/home-theater/netflix-open-connect-cuts-out-data-slinging-middle-men-eases-load-on-isps/

http://techcrunch.com/2012/06/04/netflix-open-connect/

From the techcrunch article in June 'about 5 percent of traffic is delivered through Open Connect, but over the coming years, Netflix hopes to shift a majority of traffic to its own CDN.'

I wonder how much higher it is now than the 5% from June last year - especially as most of the major ISPs have not signed up.
post #165 of 1172
Just my two cents, but investing in all this marketing hoopla will raise prices to generate bigger revenue streams, and for what? A small improvement in PQ at best and a technology (3D) that is far from becoming main stream. (No pun intended).



Ian
Edited by mailiang - 1/19/13 at 9:15pm
post #166 of 1172
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

It'd be especially interesting to hear Cablevision's views, them being probably the largest of them.

Cablevision has commented; I actually linked to a blog article back here containing part of a Cablevision comment on their decision to set up access to Open Connect. A longer version of that quote is here, in a Multichannel News post:
Quote:
Cablevision is participating in Netflix’s Open Connect private content delivery network, which it launched last year.

“Optimum is committed to providing the highest-quality TV, phone and Internet to our customers, and our new partnership with Netflix supports this critical objective,” Cablevision president and CEO James Dolan said in a statement. “With Open Connect, we are establishing a direct local connection with Netflix that delivers a higher-quality Netflix viewing experience for Optimum customers than Verizon or AT&T can provide, including access to new Netflix Super HD and 3D TV shows and movies.”

Whatever their other reasons for doing it were, they're using it to one-up other potential broadband providers for their customers who don't currently offer access to Open Connect and Netflix's Super HD and 3D offerings (many homes are passed by cable and AT&T or cable and FiOS or all three). Why not biggrin.gif?
post #167 of 1172
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

Just my two cents, but investing in all this marketing hoopla will raise prices to generate bigger revenue streams...

What investment in what marketing hoopla? Netflix has issued a simple PR and showed some stuff at CES. No TV or print ads or even web ads that I've encountered.
Quote:
A small improvement in PQ at best...

5800 Kbps "Super HD" is a 50% increase in bit rate over the 3850 Kbps 1080p encode you otherwise get. If it's as large as the difference between Netflix's old 4800 Kbps 1080p encode and old 3600 Kbps 720p one (a 33% difference), it's well worth having, at least to me.

To compare screenshots... (Click to show)
I like to use the Chrome browser to compare these because in Chrome fullscreen is fullscreen, with no horizontal or verticle scroll bars. If you're reading this post in Chrome, just drag one of the screenshot links in the paragraph above to the new tab control on the far right of the open tabs in this window. Drag the tab created by that off into its own window then drag the other link into that window's new tab control. With that window selected, hit F11 to go fullscreen, then CTRL-TAB to instantly switch back and forth between the images.

Edited by michaeltscott - 1/19/13 at 9:33pm
post #168 of 1172
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Cablevision has commented; I actually linked to a blog article back here containing part of a Cablevision comment on their decision to set up access to Open Connect. A longer version of that quote is here, in a Multichannel News post:
Whatever their other reasons for doing it were, they're using it to one-up other potential broadband providers for their customers who don't currently offer access to Open Connect and Netflix's Super HD and 3D offerings (many homes are passed by cable and AT&T or cable and FiOS or all three). Why not biggrin.gif?


Can you blame them? biggrin.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

What investment in what marketing hoopla? Netflix has issued a simple PR and showed some stuff at CES. No TV or print ads or even web ads that I've encountered.


I was referring to the long term cost of the new tech, which has more to do with marketing hype then a significant improvement in picture quality and 3D viewing, not the advertising.


Ian
Edited by mailiang - 1/19/13 at 9:31pm
post #169 of 1172
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

I was referring to the long term cost of the new tech, which has more to do with marketing hype then better picture quality and 3D viewing, not the advertising.

The jury's out on whether that's true or not. I amended my prior comment with some shots to compare.
post #170 of 1172
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

The jury's out on whether that's true or not. I amended my prior comment with some shots to compare.


I can do the same. I've done comparisons with Vudu HD verses HDX and I wasn't all that impressed. I just hope my Cablevision and/or Netflix bill doesn't go up. Unless you really have something better to offer, it ain't broke, so don't try to fix it, and then make me pay for it. wink.gif



Ian biggrin.gif
Edited by mailiang - 1/19/13 at 9:46pm
post #171 of 1172
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

I just hope my Cablevision and/or Netflix bill doesn't go up. Unless you really have something better to offer, it ain't broke, so don't fix it. wink.gif

Companies have to be seen to be making some effort to improve their product; more content presented at higher quality. Analysts have been saying that Netflix will have to increase their streaming service prices for quite a while. $1 a month per domestic sub will net them $300M per annum and probably wouldn't lose many.
post #172 of 1172
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Companies have to be seen to be making some effort to improve their product; more content presented at higher quality. Analysts have been saying that Netflix will have to increase their streaming service prices for quite a while. $1 a month per domestic sub will net them $300M per annum and probably wouldn't lose many.


I don't mind paying for something I can take advantage of, like more content or newer releases. But don't raise prices for a new service unless there is a significant advantage to have it. Or at least give the consumer a choice like Vudu does. At this point this subject is somewhat mute, since we really don't know if it will come at premium yet.


Ian
post #173 of 1172
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

I don't mind paying for something I can take advantage of, like more content or newer releases. But don't raise prices for a new service unless there is a significant advantage to have it. Or at least give the consumer a choice like Vudu does. At this point this subject is somewhat mute, since we really don't know if it will come at premium yet.

Business analysts have been saying that they'll be forced to raise their streaming plan price since long before Super HD or any of this new stuff was announced, based on the hundreds of millions they're shelling out each year in content licensing. We have no idea why they charge what they do or how they came up with it and if they raise they raise the price we probably won't be told why. Prices go up; stuff happens.
post #174 of 1172
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Business analysts have been saying that they'll be forced to raise their streaming plan price since long before Super HD or any of this new stuff was announced, based on the hundreds of millions they're shelling out each year in content licensing. We have no idea why they charge what they do or how they came up with it and if they raise they raise the price we probably won't be told why. Prices go up; stuff happens.

I agree. But as a former marketing manager, I also understand the concept of offering a value added service and milking it for a profit. wink.gif



Ian biggrin.gif
post #175 of 1172
There seems to be a lot of confusion / misinformation on what the nature of Peering is. So I'll try and break it down in an overly simplified form (and yes, there will be some technical errors in simplification). Not trying to explain the rationale for Netflix to withhold SuperHD from non-OpenConnect peers, just what peering is and why it's not some crazy burden on your ISP, in fact your ISP does this all the time with other companies (that don't compete with their cable television service) due to it being advantageous for both the ISP & CDN to do so.

In it's simplest form you can just think of it as if you had 2 computers in your house and for some reason they weren't on the same network and could only talk to each other over the internet, and then one day you had a brilliant idea to just run a cable between them, I mean they're in the same house already right?.

That's essentially what the Internet Exchanges are. In a handful of nondescript buildings in some major US (and overseas) cities, are huge datacenters (map). The largest CDNs and your ISPs all have equipment here already. Most peering agreements are literally just running physical cables between these company's respective racks of gear, and they all usually have plenty of spare capacity & ports on the gear they house here, they upgrade them long before they reach maximum capacity.

The first thing to understand is that most (not all as I'll explain in a moment) of the traffic on your ISP's network is there because THEIR CUSTOMERS requested it. From a macro POV, they are a large demand node pulling in bits from external networks (not many ISPs host a lot of data themselves). The amount of traffic their customer's request is only constrained by their own internal network's capacity, their last-mile infrastructure and their data-caps (designed to change consumer behavior to demand less).

So, if every nearly every bit their customers request comes from outside their network, how does it get there? Simple, peering agreements. In theory, the internet would work just fine as long as your ISP connected to at least one more network (doesn't matter which) and that network connected to another, etc, etc. It could be one really long chain of just 1-to-1-to-1 in a degenerate case but everyone would still be able to talk to everyone, they'd just have to go through everyone in between to do so. In reality, your ISP has peering already established with many, many other large networks, both other ISPs and, most importantly, with the CDNs that house the majority of the data on the internet these days (the large source nodes in our macro POV).

Due to the way networks work, that data is going to try and get from it's source, say a CDN like Limelight, to your ISP, say Comcast, through the most efficient route it can find. If Comcast doesn't have a direct peering with Limelight it's just going to hop through someone else who does. It might go through many networks on its way, possibly even other ISPs, whatever is fastest. This is where some fraction of the traffic on an ISPs network comes from that isn't being requested by their own customers.

Let's break down the extreme case, say only 1 network peered with Limelight, let's go with Qwest. Because Qwest is peering with other networks, everyone can access Limelight's data, but 100% of it would go through Qwest's newtork first. In the real world, many ISPs are peering directly with Limelight but those that don't indirectly cause additional load on the networks that do depending on what route that data decides to take to get to the destination.

So again, looking at this from our macro POV, you can see that any inefficiency in routing generates 'extra' traffic for someone. In a perfect network everyone would have a direct connection to everyone else and no one would have to act as a middle man who handled data he didn't ask for. In reality, just connecting the major demands to their major sources eliminates most of the middleman data but aggravatingly works backwards. If Comcast connects directly to Limelight, it actually hasn't done much to help itself, the net Limelight demand of its customers still ends up going over its network (obviously), what it did was take that extra middleman traffic off of everyone else's networks (and maybe improved ping & speed a bit for Limelight traffic). The system works though when most major ISPs peer directly with most of their major data sources, they all ultimately see a reduction in middleman traffic.

Also, with regard to the mini-CDN appliances Netflix is offering for 'free' for ISPs to house internally rather than connecting to the main OpenConnect servers at the Internet Exchanges. This makes sense for ISPs only if housing & maintaining these servers closer to the customer is cheaper than the cost of routing that traffic internally from the Internet Exchanges once the traffic is on their own network. They would only want to do this if this was in their own financial interest vs the Internet Exchange scenario so it's not like they're going to be doing this at their own maintenance costs for no reason.

Think about this, without peering, your ISP wouldn't be selling you internet, but intranet. smile.gif
post #176 of 1172
^^^That was an excellent detailed explanation of peering. Thank you for sharing that with us. Are you in that business?
Since Netflix is expanding it's programing and quality, offering Super HD, 3D, series exclusives, and producing their own media, my concern is that they may be taking a similar financial path that TSP's (cable, satellite, etc...) have taken and we will not only begin to see in the not to distant future a significant increase in subscription pricing, but increases in ISP costs, since it will also be generating more traffic, faster streams and the need for more bandwidth and caps.


Ian
Edited by mailiang - 1/20/13 at 10:46am
post #177 of 1172
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

I don't hear Netflix asking to get around those charges. They say, on their Open Connect page:
That sounds as though someone has to pay to get Netflix's (or any other CDN's) traffic across the Internet backbone to an ISP's network and that Netflix is willing to pay that. How Netflix's reduces their bottom line is by removing the middleman (the commercial CDNs).

That is exactly what Netflix is trying to do... get around those charges. Other CDNs pay ISPs. Netflix CDN (Open Connect) doesn't want to pay. Instead Netflix "offers it free" to ISPs.

If Netflix CDN (Open Connect) offered to pay ISPs like other CDNs and ISPs still refuse then ISPs are problem. But what it sounds like is that Netflix CDN (Open Connect) doesn't want to pay but wants ISPs to let Neflix in free. So of course, ISPs are going to refuse. It's not free for ISPs but would actually cost them money.

Like I've suspected and borne out by other posts, the only ISPs that are going along with Open Connect program are the ones who get some competitive advantage out of it. I am sure those ISPs look at cost of being part of Open Connect program as marketing/advertising cost.

This is Neflix's attempt at cutting cost by eliminating the middleman as someone said. Netflix is taking a step further and want to cut out paying ISPs period. Which I think is smart as long as it doesn't hurt the customers. That's where the failure lies.

What's wrong is that Netflix is holding SuperHD and 3D hostage against its own paying customers, making it contingent on ISPs' decision on whether to join Open Connect program.

I never thought I'd take cable company's side but, in this case, I am with Time Warner.
post #178 of 1172
I was on Cablevision years ago before switching to Fios when it rolled out here. Peak-hour traffic on the local Optimum node was enough to push speeds down into low DSL territory and affect Netflix performance (which was and is my prime bandwidth hog). Within the past few weeks, Netflix is acting like that again.....hard to start and maintain a stream with overall lower PQ, or else I'm imagining it.
Am I correct in thinking that I'm being corralled into upgrading to Win8 (for my windows devices anyway) *and* switching back to CV to get the same quality I recently used to get?

At the very least, will the Win8 HD-supported library match the dedicated-device library?
post #179 of 1172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apostate View Post

That is exactly what Netflix is trying to do... get around those charges. Other CDNs pay ISPs. Netflix CDN (Open Connect) doesn't want to pay. Instead Netflix "offers it free" to ISPs.

I never thought I'd take cable company's side but, in this case, I am with Time Warner.

Which is it though? Netflix trying to save $ on its end or the ISPs stifling a competitor to their TV/streaming services?

CV is taking a beating from Fios in this market. I can see them taking the deal to survive. GoogleFiber doesn't sell TV AFAIK, and is trying to break into markets.
post #180 of 1172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apostate View Post

What's wrong is that Netflix is holding SuperHD and 3D hostage against its own paying customers, making it contingent on ISPs' decision on whether to join Open Connect program.


That's a good point, however, as I posted before, how many of those customers really feel the need to upgrade to Super HD and 3D? From a marketing stand point I don't believe that the OCP will be a cash cow for Netflix or the ISP in terms of attracting new customers. The success of Netflix streaming is service verses cost.. Many consumers are substituting their TSP services with streaming since it is a cheaper alternative. They're not looking for the best quality or the newest tech, they are looking for value.


Ian
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