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Netflix adds 3D and Super HD - Page 2

post #31 of 1798
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Rather than to bother asking my ISP to hook up to Open Connect, I'd really like a Netflix Customer Feedback form so that I could tell them to go suck on something filthy. How exactly do they expect those of us who might actually care about Super HD to respond to being told, "We're making what we believe to be a higher quality product available, but you can't have it now and we can't guarantee--or, in fact, give you any reason to hope--that it will ever be available to you" rolleyes.gif? I'm really hoping that they put up a blog post so I can make my feelings known in a comment.

I agree I was trying to find a feedback form on the Netflix site so I could let them know what I feel.

No point in trying to contact Comcast - it is hard enough to get in contact with them if you need support on tech issues or billing. Trying to find a way to tell them to hook up to Open Connect is a non-starter. As has been posted here Comcast (pick your ISP) will only do it if there is a financial reason for them to do it. Nothing I say or do will change this.
Edited by undecided - 1/9/13 at 5:11pm
post #32 of 1798
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taperwood View Post

But these campaigns are hugely successful. TWC convinces the customer that the broadcasters are the bad guys so that when the price goes up they are free from blame. It's a win/win for TWC and the broadcaster without doing a thing. Oh, and don't lose sight that TWC is one of the major broadcasters. This behavior will change only when they try this and nobody cares that such and such channel will go off the air.

Totally different.

DirecTV and the Networks also go through this dance occasionally. The leverage that DirecTV has with the networks is if they pull the channels the Networks lose their audience and therefore value to their advertisers. DirecTV did this to Fox just over a year ago after failing for many months to agree a new contract. Guess what DirecTV and Fox settled within days - because Fox was in danger of losing their advertisers and revenue. Yes DirecTV told their subscribers to contact Fox - but frankly that was a smokescreen. They got the benefit of positioning themselves as the good guys trying to keep everyones subscription down - but the leverage they had with Fox was the loss of ad revenue.

Here what leverage does Netflix have with the ISPs? Not a lot unless they can make it financially attractive to the ISPs. Withholding service to Netflix own subscribers - hurts the subscribers (and therefore Netflix in the long run) - but is not leverage on the ISPs.

Someone at Netflix ain't thinking straight or isn't very smart.
post #33 of 1798
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

People are already falling for the scam. These are not "better quality" streams, it's merely the same old quality that was previously taken away. Nobody is missing out on anything, other than the higher bitrate HD streams we all used to get.

That hasn't been established one way or another to my satisfaction yet. I'm trying to get msgohan to collect some frames for comparison with ones that he snapped a year ago but I think that he's been on vacation or something without access to all of his equipment. I've taken a couple of frames of The Gray (from the Win 8 Netflix app using PRINT SCREEN) and the 3850 Kbps encode looks pretty sharp, but AFAIK they never offered a 4800 Kbps version of that.

I'd also like to see what bit rate this Super HD is encoded at. Is it higher than the old 4800 Kbps? They apparently have it in Brazil and I've asked drdsouza to see if he can get the info from the Windows 8 app's Stream Manager.

It's a little goofy for Netflix to make these claims of better encoding in lower bit rates without any proof. As an engineer I personally don't doubt that it could be possible, but I'd like to be offered some evidence that it's been achieved. If we can find some objective evidence that it hasn't I want to get the tech bloggers to call shenanigans on them.
post #34 of 1798
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

...I'd also like to see what bit rate this Super HD is encoded at. Is it higher than the old 4800 Kbps? They apparently have it in Brazil and I've asked drdsouza to see if he can get the info from the Windows 8 app's Stream Manager....

Engadget posted this Super-HD (and user profiles): http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/09/netflix-profiles-super-hd-3d-dial/
Quote:
We also got an eyeful of the new "Super HD" 1080p streaming, and although network issues kept us from getting a true gauge of the quality, we did confirm that the new max bitrates are well above the old "X-High" standards. Another thing we confirmed? That Cablevision and Google Fiber aren't the only US ISPs on its Open Connect list -- check the site to see if yours is.

So, apparently over 4800 Kbps.....
post #35 of 1798
Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerOne View Post

Engadget posted this Super-HD (and user profiles): http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/09/netflix-profiles-super-hd-3d-dial/
So, apparently over 4800 Kbps.....

Thanks for the link. I posted a comment and asked that they try to find out exactly what the bit rate of Super HD is.
post #36 of 1798
Undecided,

I agree that what Netflix is doing is totally different. You summarized the issue very well. I was specifically referring to the tactic of TWC urging it's customers to put pressure on broadcasts when in fact TWC benefits either way. We've all been through this with Netflix. They will literally try anything and unfortunately its service has to be the beta platform. Their business model is turning the media industry upside down and inside out and I don't see how else they can figure out what works without trying new things all the time. I give them great credit that things don't crash and burn more often. In almost three years now, I have never seen a complete break in service at my place but I've seen plenty of little glitches, so I know they are always doing something. I view this as just another step on the road to wherever it is watching TV is headed.
post #37 of 1798
Being that Verizon is going to offer a streaming service of their own, what possible motivation would they have to offer compatibility with Netflix's CDN?

Being that we on FIOS have some of the fastest connections in NA, we should definitely have access to this, but I'm not holding my breath. Everyone who pays $8/mo should have access to the same level of service.
Edited by DaveFi - 1/9/13 at 7:41pm
post #38 of 1798
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taperwood View Post

Undecided,

I agree that what Netflix is doing is totally different. You summarized the issue very well. I was specifically referring to the tactic of TWC urging it's customers to put pressure on broadcasts when in fact TWC benefits either way. We've all been through this with Netflix. They will literally try anything and unfortunately its service has to be the beta platform. Their business model is turning the media industry upside down and inside out and I don't see how else they can figure out what works without trying new things all the time. I give them great credit that things don't crash and burn more often. In almost three years now, I have never seen a complete break in service at my place but I've seen plenty of little glitches, so I know they are always doing something. I view this as just another step on the road to wherever it is watching TV is headed.

Sorry - it was Netflix not you that was making me mad.........
post #39 of 1798
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveFi View Post

Being that Verizon is going to offer a streaming service of their own, what possible motivation would they have to offer compatibility with Netflix's CDN?

Being that we on FIOS have some of the fastest connections in NA, we should definitely have access to this, but I'm not holding my breath. Everyone who pays $8/mo should have access to the same level of service.

Which is of course true with Comcast as well.

Netflix has been arguing Net neutrality and that ISPs shouldn't give preference to their own content.

It seems this move could shoot them in the foot and undermine their arguments......
post #40 of 1798
Quote:
Originally Posted by undecided View Post

Which is of course true with Comcast as well.

Netflix has been arguing Net neutrality and that ISPs shouldn't give preference to their own content.

It seems this move could shoot them in the foot and undermine their arguments......

... Something Netflix has become quite good at over the last year or two.
post #41 of 1798
Hey guys, I'm on Sonic.Net here in San Francisco on a ~18Mbps and they are showing the SuperHD available on the Netflix SuperHD page. I did some tests and I'm seeing 4300 and 5800 as top bitrates, both showing as 1920x1080. I'm using the Windows 8 App to do my tests, I'll have to check out what the PS3 & AppleTV show as well in a bit. I'm gonna gather up some screenshots here to try and get a little comparison for you all. Here's one to start showing the Stream Manager @ 5800. The embed is gonna crunch it some, the original screenshot was 2560x1440, I'll also try and find a better place to host the full resolution screencaps for comparisons.

post #42 of 1798
Quote:
Originally Posted by hankmurphy2021 View Post

Hey guys, I'm on Sonic.Net here in San Francisco on a ~18Mbps and they are showing the SuperHD available on the Netflix SuperHD page. I did some tests and I'm seeing 4300 and 5800 as top bitrates, both showing as 1920x1080. I'm using the Windows 8 App to do my tests, I'll have to check out what the PS3 & AppleTV show as well in a bit. I'm gonna gather up some screenshots here to try and get a little comparison for you all. Here's one to start showing the Stream Manager @ 5800. The embed is gonna crunch it some, the original screenshot was 2560x1440, I'll also try and find a better place to host the full resolution screencaps for comparisons.

Thank you very, very much! You can see the full resolution version of that shot by right-clicking it and dragging it into the new tab control on your browser and hitting F11 to blow it up fullscreen. Click the blown up picture to show 2560x1440 if your screen res is set lower--my screen is a 46" 1080p LCD panel so 2560x1440 won't fit; it's really only 1080p anyway, upscaled by the video card of the PC that was running it.

I see that, in addition to the 2350-, 3000- (both 720p) and 3850 Kbps (1080p) encodes you can get without Super HD, there are also 4300- and 5800 Kbps 1080p encodes. That 5800 Kbps is a 50% increase over 3850 Kbps--should be nice.
post #43 of 1798
Ah, ya, I noticed after I posted that it did retain the original image, only the embedded version was shrunk. I tested on my PS3 and couldn't get it to go above 4300, which it called High/SD but I'm guessing that's just the PS3 Netflix app not knowing what to call that profile since the one just lower (3850) was called High/HD. This photo was just taken with my phone so the quality is obviously nothing like what I'm actually seeing smile.gif

AppleTV is applying an update since I can't remember last time I turned it on. Will post info from that shortly.


post #44 of 1798
Hank, could you follow the procedure I wrote up in this post and let me know what the CDN address you end up streaming Super HD from is? Thanks!
post #45 of 1798
Sure thing. Not sure if it's the Windows 8 app or just my wife streaming on the iPad but it always seemed to drop down to around 1750 after I'd get the stream playing at 5800 and then snap it to the left. Either way, doesn't affect the CDN smile.gif

post #46 of 1798
AppleTV is able to get the full 5800 bitrate stream. Retested the PS3 and still capped out at 4300, so not sure what the limitation is there but in my opinion the AppleTV video was noticeably better looking.

post #47 of 1798
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hankmurphy2021 View Post

AppleTV is able to get the full 5800 bitrate stream. Retested the PS3 and still capped out at 4300, so not sure what the limitation is there but in my opinion the AppleTV video was noticeably better looking.


How do you make the bitrate show up on the Apple TV?
post #48 of 1798
PS3 playing Super HD on a system supporting this now shows as HIGH/SD. But on a Sony Bluray player (BDP-S590) it now displays as X-HIGH/HD.
post #49 of 1798
I'm still cheezed off knowing I'll probably never get SuperHD. The only way I'll get this is if Verizon's Redbox streaming service fails big time, and being that my parents share my Netflix account with me there's little chance of me migrating over to Redbox streaming anyways (unless it's so totally spectacular).
post #50 of 1798
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aero 1 View Post

How do you make the bitrate show up on the Apple TV?


I would like to know this as well. Anybody know? Thanks!
post #51 of 1798
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aero 1 View Post

How do you make the bitrate show up on the Apple TV?

That is most likely the display device showing the bitrate, not the Apple TV.
post #52 of 1798
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.G View Post

That is most likely the display device showing the bitrate, not the Apple TV.


Or is it overlayed by netflix on that "example short" video?
post #53 of 1798
Hey. I was thinking one way of gaining access to SuperHD streams might be by proxy. If nothing appears on Verizon FIOS (which I doubt it will), I might wait a bit and see if SuperHD is that much superior to standard HD and worth it to find a proxy with an ISP that supports it.
post #54 of 1798
Quote:
Originally Posted by craiger8811 View Post

Or is it overlayed by netflix on that "example short" video?

That is what it looks like. The example short looks just like that with the info in the upper left corner. And that looks like a scene from it.
post #55 of 1798
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveFi View Post

I'm still cheezed off knowing I'll probably never get SuperHD. The only way I'll get this is if Verizon's Redbox streaming service fails big time, and being that my parents share my Netflix account with me there's little chance of me migrating over to Redbox streaming anyways (unless it's so totally spectacular).
If it's any consolation you'll be a member of a very large majority of the country that is likely not to get it either. Given that most folks are connected to one of the big providers(Comcast, TWC, Verizon, etc), and they all have their own version of streaming, I don't see much incentive for them to add these higher bitrate streams from a competitor. This appears to be more of a "poke in the eye" at the big ISPs than any real value for a large portion of Netflix subscribers.

I hope I'm wrong, but having Comcast as my provider I don't have much hope of seeing these streams anytime soon.
post #56 of 1798
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

That is what it looks like. The example short looks just like that with the info in the upper left corner. And that looks like a scene from it.

I've got the Apple TV3 with the latest firmware and there is no overlay on this example video...either on my plasma HDTV or projector. I'm looking at it right now.

EDIT: Of the 4 Netflix Example videos the only one that shows an overlay is the 8 hour 23.976 (fps) version.
Edited by Mr.G - 1/10/13 at 11:45am
post #57 of 1798

Up front I haven't used Netflix streaming to any degree for quite a while. However, I think it's basically a win for everyone.

 

  • Those how have access to Open Connect get more than what they have been paying for.
  • Those who don't have access have a much better chance of getting what they have paying for as the load on existing servers (and traffic) should be reduced.

 

I can't blame Netflix for not offering the same speed to everyone. Clearly, within their existing structure they can't deliver the Super HD speed to everyone. Haven't enough horror stories proven that? As such starting a new delivery system to address faster speeds makes perfect sense. Complaining about not being available everywhere is like complaining (abstractly) to an airline they can't land next to your house. Currently, there are only so many runways and if you don't happen to live next to one... request your ISP to build one. Otherwise you'll have to take the bus. :)

post #58 of 1798
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.G View Post

I've got the Apple TV3 with the latest firmware and there is no overlay on this example video...either on my plasma HDTV or projector. I'm looking at it right now.

EDIT: Of the 4 Netflix Example videos the only one that shows an overlay is the 8 hour 23.976 (fps) version.

Thanks for the info. I was unaware. Testing as soon as I get home! smile.gif
post #59 of 1798
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

Up front I haven't used Netflix streaming to any degree for quite a while. However, I think it's basically a win for everyone.
  • Those how have access to Open Connect get more than what they have been paying for.
  • Those who don't have access have a much better chance of getting what they have paying for as the load on existing servers (and traffic) should be reduced.

I can't blame Netflix for not offering the same speed to everyone. Clearly, within their existing structure they can't deliver the Super HD speed to everyone. Haven't enough horror stories proven that? As such starting a new delivery system to address faster speeds makes perfect sense. Complaining about not being available everywhere is like complaining (abstractly) to an airline they can't land next to your house. Currently, there are only so many runways and if you don't happen to live next to one... request your ISP to build one. Otherwise you'll have to take the bus. smile.gif

Respectively I disagree (the runway is already there Netflix has chosen not to use it)

- We all could (if our bandwidth supported it) get higher bit rate streams until about a month ago (4800 kbps for video and 384 kbps for audio). This was quietly reduced by Netflix. When people discovered the reduction Netflix claimed that the reduced streams were of same or better quality. The jury is out on this one as many feel the new streams are softer.

- Now Netflix is again offering higher bit streams (4300 and 5800 Kbps 1080p) which my bandwidth can easily handle. Netflix has decided not offer these higher bit streams to me even though they were previously providing similar bit streams without any problems and my bandwidth can easily handle it.

- Almost no-one in the US has access to Open Connect so the new streams really are not available to most.

- As has been stated it seems unlikely that Comcast, Verizon, TWC etc will offer Open Connect unless there is a strong financial incentive for them to this. They certainly have no interest in enabling competiive streaming options - and Netflix have given them the perfect excuse to make sure the highest quaility Netflix streams are not available on their networks - thus making their (Comcast, Verizon, TWC) own streams look more attractive. This seems a really dumb move on Netflix's part.

- Netflix should not be asking me to lobby my ISP - I have no leverage. Comcast is my only local option. If Netflix want the major ISPs to offer Open Connect they need to negotiate the deal with them (Netflix may want to remember however that they not my only streaming option....)

Bottom line is that Netflix has artificially decided to limit the quality of the stream they offer me (and most of the US). I have had absolutely no problems in the past streaming the old 5.2 Mbps stream through my Comcast connection. It has worked 24/7 for all shows/movies I have watched. The whole thing smacks of hypocrisy and bad business judgement and would seem to undermine Netflix's Net neutrality arguments. If Netflix is willing to limit the quality of the stream through Comcast what is to stop Comcast in the future throttling Netflix streams so they can promote their own.
Edited by undecided - 1/10/13 at 1:12pm
post #60 of 1798
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.G View Post

I've got the Apple TV3 with the latest firmware and there is no overlay on this example video...either on my plasma HDTV or projector. I'm looking at it right now.

EDIT: Of the 4 Netflix Example videos the only one that shows an overlay is the 8 hour 23.976 (fps) version.

People have stated this before, which would seem to indicate that ATV is getting a different set of video encodes than most other adaptive bit-rate streaming Netflix players. I've heard that the ATVs output basic DD for titles with surround sound, not by processing the DD+ which most other devices get, but by getting a video encode with basic DD incorporated into it. (Apparently they can't do the synchronize-a-separate-audio-stream-with-the-video thing that they do with DD+ with basic DD). They said in a blog post that they generate 120 downloadables for every title--this would account for some of them.
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