Netflix adds 3D and Super HD - Page 3

Well said, same here. I have Comcast as well with 20mbps and was streaming X-High shows and movies all the time, now all they did was take it away and it doesn't look as good as it did. Seriously thinking about canceling.

Unsure of all the hand-wringing I see. This is a quote from the first post in this thread:

ISPs can directly connect their networks to Open Connect for free. ISPs can do this either by free peering with us at common Internet exchanges, or can save even more transit costs by putting our free storage appliances in or near their network.

I see the word "free" three times in that quote. I don't see any barrier to any ISP taking Netflix up on this offer. My guess is that if Netflix has something here and it really is free, everyone will eventually take advantage of it.

I don't think it's the free part that's the issue, the ISPs will likely want to paid for the additional bandwidth load on their last mile systems. Unless I'm interpreting that information wrong it seems Netflix is offering something free to the ISPs that they would never pay for in the first place.

Then you have not carefully read several post!! For example Open Connect software is free. What about the hardware? Who pays for the more data that will be used? If a local Netflix CDN server goes down who repairs it?

Lot more questions than answers.

I suppose that is why Netflix is working on more efficient algorithms, but the bigger question is what are the ISP's doing about the last mile? If it was not Netflix, it would be someone else. The issue is that people want to stream video and they often can't because of that last mile. We can't blame Netflix for this. Seems to me they are doing everything they can to help. I'm as much a victim of the last mile as anyone. Best I can get is 7Mbps download and I only live 12 blocks from my DSL network switch. They've promised faster for years but it never comes.

Sorry - but you are missing the point.

Comcast's last mile to me is fine. I get 20 Mbps without problems.

It is Netflix's decision not allow me to stream the 4300 and 5800 Kbps streams when I could previously stream 5200 Kbps stream without any problems. Vudu HDX (9000 Kbps) works fine for me.

(Not sure who your DSL provider is - but I had to leave Verizon. Verizon no longer has any interest in supporting DSL because of the costs of supporting old copper wire. I used to get 6 Mbps - then they decided to limit me to 4 Mbps and showed no interest in keeping me as a customer. You may want to see what other options you have apart from DSL - see http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Verizon-is-Willfully-Driving-DSL-Users-Into-the-Arms-of-Cable-120473)

It's being embedded by Netflix on the video I selected. When I started testing this on Win8 I just chose randomly from the dozen or so titles that showed up when I looked for 'example short', guess I just got lucky that I chose the one that does the embedded bitrate. I've just been playing that same one on PS3/AppleTV from my Recently Watched history.

You're right that this has nothing to do with the last-mile connection to your home. This is just the latest escalation in the mostly behind-the-scenes peering war going on between CDNs and ISPs since Comcast fired the first shot over a year go in their negotiations with Level3 by attempting to charge Level3 for the privilege of allowing Comcast customers access to Netflix. Prior to that dispute, peering negotiations were a mostly unremarkable contract between two entities with mutual interests to light up the necessary connections between the two to allow for more efficient routing.

Since the opening hostilities, Netflix is now attempting to bolster its position and avoid incurring more costs as it's bandwidth usage increases by requiring that ISPs that want to allow their customer's access to the highest bitrate streams, participate in their Open Connect CDN peering agreements, thus guaranteeing that they won't be subject to large & arbitrary costs imposed on them by the ISPs who are simply looking to find new revenue streams by charging both their customers and content providers.

As Sonic.Net's CEO said regarding data caps being imposed on the customers of many major ISPs (See his post in the comments).

His assertion is that the major ISPs today that also happen to be cable providers are doing everything they can to try and protect their cable tv service profits from being eroded by cheap streaming services with these kinds of policies.

The attempts to impose a cost on CDN<->ISP peering agreements by the likes of Comcast is likely just another front on that war, attempting to increase Netflix's operating cost, while themselves gaining new free revenue for something they already provide, in hopes that Netflix will be forced to pass the cost along to their customers and discourage more users from 'cutting the cord'.

Netflix is just doing here what many cable tv content providers have done recently during negotiations, trying to get the consumer to call their ISP. Same as last year's Dish vs AMC. Right now, Netflix is attempting to negotiate peering agreements with your ISPs, those ISPs just aren't listening, so they're enlisting you. At least it's not as bad as the AMC situation, you at least can still get 3850 bitrate streams

Also, I fully respect your rights to be upset about this, disagree with Netflix and/or any information I have put forth here. I'd be a little miffed too if I wasn't getting SuperHD

/endpolicywonkiness

I think what it really comes down to is the ISP's aversion to installing the Open Connect CDN equipment that will enable their(the ISP) subscribers to use, and pay for, a competing product. Control the access, control the dollars being spent. The more people who use Netflix, the more people who end up "cutting the cord" of traditional TV service. Although broadband service is rapidly becoming the core product for cable companies, the big bucks are still in legacy TV service, a service they pretty much control with an iron fist. The Internet is a far different animal as far as control goes(net neutrality issues, etc) which is why the ISPs(cablecos) are all looking at usage based billing, if they can't control(and monetize) the content itself, at least control the delivery of it(the bandwidth). They see the future, they're just not that anxious to move into it yet(too much money in the old system), and they're especially not pleased about an interloper like Netflix creating a beachhead on the future of video delivery, over the ISP's owned-and-operated network.

What incentive does a Comcast et al. have for enabling this higher quality service from Netflix? None that I can see, other than monetize the delivery of it with bandwidth usage charges, something that is getting increased scrutiny from subscribers, consumer groups and even Congress. It's a messy and murky situation.

(I see that hankmurphy2021 has already covered the points I started to make above but walked away mid-composition to eat dinner! )
Edited by keenan - 1/10/13 at 10:00pm

Thanks for understanding my 'wonkiness'

What I don't get is why Netflix would lift the curtain and expose these fights to their customers.

Most people get access through the big ISPs who also have their own TV content - why would Netflix highlight their vulnerability to these ISPs to their customers?

At the end of the day it is a Netflix decision to limit the highest resolution streams to most of their US customers.....

Maybe they will save some $ - but it seems like a really bad marketing decision when they are fighting for customers with the alternate streaming options and the ISPs own on-demand TV services......

The Windows 8 app intelligently restricts itself to the highest bit rate SD encode when it's displaying in a SD res window.

Minor nit--that old 5200 Kbps number that you quote is 4800 Kbps video plus 384 Kbps DD+ sound (5184 Kbps to be precise). The new streams with DD+ sound will be 4684- and 6184 Kbps. Doesn't change your point.

This right here goes right to the heart of the issue. In most major (and almost guaranteed in all minor) metro regions the local cable operator / ISP has a virtual monopoly on truly high speed Internet (capable of 5.8M streams so not your local telco's 3M DSL service). The lack of competition means they have no incentive to listen to you (the customer) when you ask for them to work with Netflix to deliver SuperHD. I'm lucky to live somewhere that there are 3 viable ISPs and at least one of them understands that being part of a competitive market means they need to try and provide quality of service to their customers. At least two or three guys at work today discussed switching to Sonic this weekend to get SuperHD. Amazing how free markets work when competition is allowed

What will be very interesting to watch is if Super HD starts showing up regionally among national ISPs in markets they feel pressure from a local competitor (say Comcast gets it here in SF but not elsewhere). Much like how cost & speed of high speed Internet seems to coincidentally have better value in cities with at least 2 major ISPs despite the same ISP charging more for less in cities they wholly control.

Again, none of this means Netflix isn't to shoulder part of the 'blame' for the situation. This was obviously a business decision on their part to put the back room negotiations of their operation ahead of pure customer service. We'll see who wins out in the end, and ultimately the .001% of us on this forum are the vocal minority when compared to the bread and butter subscribers who literally have no idea what bitrate and SuperHD mean and couldn't care less about the diff between 3850 and 5800. /perspective

I'm curious about the 3d requirements. Only info I can find is that the 3d is PS3 only. I have Windows8, my ISP is part of the network, and I can see SuperHD content. However I can't see any 3d movies. I tried out Immortals last night but it didn't show a 3d tag.

Anyone else know?

Hey Netflix....

Why are you screwing your loyal (and probably most knowledgeable) customers???

As has been said above:
Comcast has absolutely NO incentive at all to use your CDN!!!

Asking me to contact Comcast for you is like asking me to piss into the wind...
It ain't gonna happen!

I, for one, AM willing to pay YOU for the best video quality and 3d videos!
If you need to charge me a bit more for a 'premium' service, then just Do It and stop screwing around with us!

leeb

I think a $1 or $2 SuperHD & 3D addon fee would probably be acceptable for most people, similar to the Bluray fee. That could very well be their fallback plan if/when the whole CDN peering stuff doesn't get any traction among the big ISPs. I'd be surprised if most of the country wasn't able to access SuperHD content within the year since it is still in Netflix's interest to continue pushing the quality of their product forward for everyone in the face of competing streaming / rental services like VUDU offering very high bitrate streams to everyone.

I think you're right, from a technical standpoint the edge placement of the CDN is the way it's going to go anyway. But I think the bigger question is how much influence can the cableco exert over what flows over its lines, and if and how much they want to charge for it. I think the more Netflix pushes this the faster we'll see usage based billing become a reality.

Until VUDU offers a buffet plan like Netflix Watch Instantly they're not the competition. So far, only Amazon is (and they're not trying to compete). Redbox's service is coming with the same sort of all-you-can-watch streaming plus a few disc rentals from their kiosks for a lower monthly fee than Netflix's streaming-only plan. They have a long way to go before their selection of content and the number of platforms they have players on makes them truly competitive with Netflix.

Comparing Vudu to Netflix is like comparing the creek running through my backyard with the Mississippi.

To be clear, this is not an issue with quality, it's an issue with volume, in my opinion anyway.
Edited by keenan - 1/11/13 at 12:30pm

For some reason I get an error when I try and post to the FIOS forum or I would vote, but as I said before since Verizon is coming out with their own streaming service in a few months I highly doubt it will make any difference.

I also would be willing to pay that extra $1 or $2/mo for this SuperHD service, instead they are leaving it in the hands of the ISPs, most of whom have little incentive of implementing the CDN.

Sorry, I didn't mean to say the service compete directly on content, only that there are additional video streaming services out there will be moving their own bitrates up as they can and Netflix can't afford to be seen as having sub-par quality by comparison (talking long-term here). A more appropriate comparison would've been Amazon, who conveniently already have their own peering agreements with all the major ISPs to host all the myriad of websites on their AWS CDN. While Amazon Instant still isn't much of a competitor right now (IMO), they have the ability long-term to add more content and ratchet up the bitrate. Netflix has the advantage today, they likely won't squander it waiting for peering with Open Connect. If they don't get traction on Open Connect they'll likely find another way to get SuperHD to the masses at their own costs or by passing the cost along to those who want to pay extra for it.

The point over the last mile is not really about the bandwidth but who owns it. My CenturyLink 7Mbps is fast enough for current Netflix HD streams, so that was not my specific point. Your Comcast would like nothing more than for Netflix to just go away. My CenturyLink has marketing agreements with DirectTV, so they probably would like Netflix to go away, too. That presents a problem for Netflix.

I don't know why Netflix does what it does most of the time. They are not the most eloquent company in the world and I don't consider them good and virtuous any more than I consider Comcast bad and evil. They just have different business models for what is essentially the same goal. I think Netflix wants an equal seat at the table and they are knocking on the door. Will they get it? The customers will be the ones to decide the outcome of this, not these companies. Tell me you've at least dropped to basic cable in favor of streaming.

I am sorry but I don't understand your point about the last mile. In the thread I was replying to you said 'the bigger question is what are the ISP's doing about the last mile?'

My Comcast is only for Internet. I have DirecTV - one of the main reasons is Premier League and Champion League soccer. I can see pretty much every game I want......I originally got DirecTV because there is no OTA TV here.

(Yes I used to think Comcast was evil and wanted nothing to do with them - but Verizon walking away from DSL forced my hand. I have to say my Comcast experience has been great. I live in a mountainous rural area where frankly I am surprised I can get high speed internet. Comcast came checked my location. They then sent someone out to install cable to my house. He was here for about 3 hours running the cable from across the street to the house and then under crawl areas to the other side of the house. Since the install my modem signal levels have been perfect and I reliably get the speed I am supposed to get. I now use Ooma for the phone. So I am surprised happy and saving a bundle vs the old Verzion DSL phone service).

Okay, as others have mentioned, the point is that the last mile ISP's want to control the content into your home. Scratch the surface and you will find that probably 90% of what comes into your home is owned by fewer than ten companies and the last mile access is controlled by maybe five or six for the vast majority of us. They want nothing more than for Netflix to just go away. It''s disappointing to see people dis Netflix for simply trying to maintain an equal playing field, however awkwardly, especially when most of these same people would admit to having cable and satellite TV. Sounds to me like they don't have much to lose either way, but the big picture is that this is all about net neutrality and Netflix is still losing the high ground on this subject based on what I'm seeing in this thread.

As far as 3D and superHD from Netflix: How much control does anyone have over the quality they get from cable or satellite TV?

Tivo (premier) is able to play the 5800kbs streams. When it does it switches to 1080p/24 ouput.

The netflix UI on tivo does not show the superhd tag though

FYI.

What Internet provider do you have?

It is Netflix (not the ISPs) who are limiting the stream to most of their customers.

I don't see how this levels the playing field - it would also seem to undermine Netflix's Net Neutrality arguments,

I also have no idea why having cable/satellite would disqualify anyone from commenting here.

Netflix and Vudu meant I removed all the Premium Channels (HBO, Starz etc) from my package - but I still need my Premier League and Champion league fix.....

Precisely. Netflix has added 2 new higher quality HD video encodes to most of their HD titles and are choosing not to host them on the CDNs which they use now (Limelight, Level 3, Akamai, etc) because they're trying to dump the use of those services and transition to their own single purpose CDN to improve their bottom line. They could host them on the CDNs which they currently use, but it'd cost them. I'd be perfectly happy to pay a small premium for them, but they're putting my access to them into the hands of my ISP.

It's slightly analogous to cable channel carriage ("ask your service provider for NFL Network now"). The difference is that adding channels of programming can attract new customers whereas no one's going to drop their broadband network provider if they don't get Netflix Super HD or subscribe if they do (though a few might increase their network service level). You have to be pretty tech savvy just to know that it exists.

I agree I would pay a small premium (like the Blu-Ray premium in rentals) for the best streams.

However it seems like Netflix has decided to deny the highest quality streams to me - and even more frustratingly I have no way to tell them - well I have I can cancel....

Netflix you really are losing it....