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Sony shows new 3D camcorder at CES. hDR TD30 - Page 5

post #121 of 174
The industry decided to allow 1080 24p only to be burned in a direct way to 3D-BD. And they came up with 1080 24p cameras, but not for the cheaper consumer s3D cameras - at least it takes the professional Version of the JVC TD1 or the Z10K.

The other way is to use AVCHD 3D, what allows 1080 50i/60i to be burned to AVCHD 2.0/3D BDs - but here the capability for distribution is limited really. That can be done with Edius but also with other tools like Pinnacle Studio - and here the Quality loss is much less (at least with Edius) compared to the conversion to 720 50p.

To Stretch 1080 50i files to 1080 24p is not as complicated as it may look like - but for sure it is nothing for a novice, neither in Vegas nor in Edius. Unfortunately it is as it is.
post #122 of 174
I understand the poster's frustration completely. It is what it is, but it is what it is because the industry has decided to a large extent not to support consumer 3D as we (reasonably) expected they would. Since I have Vegas and Edius and PowerDirector, and I have the "pro" camcorders, I can work around these issues. I'm very grateful for that. But those things don't help the average consumer who bought a camcorder and thought he could create a 3D disc without much more effort than a DVD or regular HD disc. I'm not talking about anything elaborate or professional - just trimming it a bit and putting the footage on a disc without losing quality. That's not too much to ask or expect.

To me, "consumer 3D" feels like a cruel tease.

The big consumer manufacturers: "(To the consumer's face) See how beautiful the 3D video is from our camcorders? (Looking off to the side, in a whisper) Well, you can only watch that video on our terms, not the way you want to. As a matter of fact, we're going to make it so difficult and inconvenient that most of you will just give up. If 3D flops, don't blame us. We did all we could. Now we're off to sell 4K TV's and camcorders, where the real money is. (In a softer whisper) And by the way, don't forget to sit no more than 6 feet from your 65" 4K set or you won't be able to tell the difference between 4K and 1080p. But, oh my, what's that shiny sign up ahead that says 8K? Hold on to this 4K camcorder for me - won't you please, Mr. Consumer - while I go check it out."
post #123 of 174
So what's the big deal that consumer camcorders are not given the 24p option? Is it a way to restrict consumers who are on a budget to deny them to make 3D BD's with ease? forcing them to have to spend more on pro gear?

Could a firmware hack make a consumer 3D camcorder shoot in 24p?

24p in my opinion is too dated for todays video standards, so i myself can't understand why the film industry still uses it with so much faster frame rates available giving smother fast movement in todays action films.

Dose anyone know where we will be with this new 4k UHD video format? is that too only 24p on blu-ray, in fact can a full feature film even fit on BD in full UHD? 3D or 2D (probably belongs in a different thread)

is AVCHD 3D on a blu-ray not a side by side format only?
post #124 of 174
The industry sells 1080 24p with s3D cameras at a higher price only. There is no technical reason why the 1080 50i Units could not run with 24p too.

I would prefer 48p, but that is unlikely to happen.

AVCHD 3D is a muxed stream of L and R, so it has two times 1920x1080 - but there is no dependent and independend stream as found with MVC.
post #125 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by martin68 View Post

So what's the big deal that consumer camcorders are not given the 24p option? Is it a way to restrict consumers who are on a budget to deny them to make 3D BD's with ease? forcing them to have to spend more on pro gear?

Could a firmware hack make a consumer 3D camcorder shoot in 24p?

24p in my opinion is too dated for todays video standards, so i myself can't understand why the film industry still uses it with so much faster frame rates available giving smother fast movement in todays action films.

Dose anyone know where we will be with this new 4k UHD video format? is that too only 24p on blu-ray, in fact can a full feature film even fit on BD in full UHD? 3D or 2D (probably belongs in a different thread)

is AVCHD 3D on a blu-ray not a side by side format only?

The only logical explanation for restricting consumer camcorders from shooting at 24p is protectionism. It's another way to distinguish consumer from pro gear, and pro gear costs more. It's an unfortunate fact of life, but it's the way things have always been done. I haven't heard of a hack that will allow a consumer camcorder to shoot at 24p. The cool thing about the JVC HMZ1 is that it's a pro-level camcorder that shoots at 24p, but it sells for about $850-$900 - at least right now. There's no telling how long it will be available.

24p is dated, but there's a giant, worldwide infrastructure of software and hardware that supports it, unlike the higher frame rates. It's not an easy or cheap task to change that. It's also not an easy task to change the mindset of professionals who have spent their careers dealing with the limitations of shooting and editing at 24fps. From the consumer perspective, 48p or 60p looks different and that makes people perceive it as "unnatural," despite the fact that higher frame rates are closer to how we perceive things with our naked eyes. I guarantee you that if people were used to higher frame rates they wouldn't want to go back to 24p. Neither would filmmakers, if they'd grown up with smoother motion. Even in animated films, animators have to deal with the limitations of 24p when they create camera or subject motion - using techniques like motion blur and swish pans. That's why there are formal recommendations for how fast to pan so as not to make films look too unnatural. 24p limits the creative process in a very fundamental way that 48p or 60p does not.

At the recent CEDIA expo, Joe Kane lamented the fact that the new HDMI 2.0 standard limits the quality of 60p video. Sure it can deal with 60p, but not at the same quality as slower frame rates. The people who create the standards are too short-sighted. If Blu-ray disc had not been limited to 8-bit video, we wouldn't have banding issues that continue to plague the format, especially with multi-generation editing. Joe Kane and others realized before the format was created that 10-bit encoding would actually use less disc space than 8-bit, and thus they could fit as much or more video on a 50GB disc as 8-bit, while avoiding the serious impact on video quality. No one listened, and they're still not listening.

One problem with consumer 3D video is that a new "standard" was used (MVC at 50i/60i), but the industry lost interest before it gave users a way to do basic, necessary things - such as getting it onto a disc and sharing it with family and friends. So, we have "solutions" that require burning the 3D video to an SD card so it can be viewed. It's a tiny hoop most people couldn't dream of jumping through. What's worse, the contents of that SD card can be burned to disc and played on some AVCHD 2.0-compatible Blu-ray 3D players (some Sony's) and not others (some Panasonic's).

Want more bad news? My earliest 3D displays would play 3D video from my JVC TD1 just fine, but some of the later ones won't. My Samsung C8000 3D plasma played all the TD1 video without an issue. The D7000 replacement (C8000 screen went bad) would play SbS 3D video from the camcorder just fine, but not mp4 MVC 3D video. It wouldn't play one of the primary colors and cost me a "repair" trip, plus weeks of lost time trying to get it "fixed." There was nothing wrong with the camera, just a change in what the plasma would play. My JVC RS40 played video from my TD1 just fine (except for the horrible ghosting), but the next generation Epson 6010 3D projector (which improved on the ghosting performance) wouldn't play the video at full resolution. Some Blu-ray 3D players will play Blu-ray 3D content from a DVD disc, while others require that content to be on an actual Blu-ray disc.

Consumer 3D has been botched from day one. Instead of cleaning up their mess, the CE manufacturers have simply moved on to 4K, leaving consumers feeling misled and betrayed. Now, for me, the small window opened up the capability to create my own 3D videos at a reasonable price point. That's tremendous and I love it. But again, that doesn't help the average person who doesn't have the skill or patience to work around the problems that the short-sightedness created. That's why you have angry consumers returning their 3D camcorders.
post #126 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

The only logical explanation for restricting consumer camcorders from shooting at 24p is protectionism. It's another way to distinguish consumer from pro gear, and pro gear costs more. It's an unfortunate fact of life, but it's the way things have always been done. I haven't heard of a hack that will allow a consumer camcorder to shoot at 24p. The cool thing about the JVC HMZ1 is that it's a pro-level camcorder that shoots at 24p, but it sells for about $850-$900 - at least right now. There's no telling how long it will be available.

24p is dated, but there's a giant, worldwide infrastructure of software and hardware that supports it, unlike the higher frame rates. It's not an easy or cheap task to change that. It's also not an easy task to change the mindset of professionals who have spent their careers dealing with the limitations of shooting and editing at 24fps. From the consumer perspective, 48p or 60p looks different and that makes people perceive it as "unnatural," despite the fact that higher frame rates are closer to how we perceive things with our naked eyes. I guarantee you that if people were used to higher frame rates they wouldn't want to go back to 24p. Neither would filmmakers, if they'd grown up with smoother motion. Even in animated films, animators have to deal with the limitations of 24p when they create camera or subject motion - using techniques like motion blur and swish pans. That's why there are formal recommendations for how fast to pan so as not to make films look too unnatural. 24p limits the creative process in a very fundamental way that 48p or 60p does not.

At the recent CEDIA expo, Joe Kane lamented the fact that the new HDMI 2.0 standard limits the quality of 60p video. Sure it can deal with 60p, but not at the same quality as slower frame rates. The people who create the standards are too short-sighted. If Blu-ray disc had not been limited to 8-bit video, we wouldn't have banding issues that continue to plague the format, especially with multi-generation editing. Joe Kane and others realized before the format was created that 10-bit encoding would actually use less disc space than 8-bit, and thus they could fit as much or more video on a 50GB disc as 8-bit, while avoiding the serious impact on video quality. No one listened, and they're still not listening.

One problem with consumer 3D video is that a new "standard" was used (MVC at 50i/60i), but the industry lost interest before it gave users a way to do basic, necessary things - such as getting it onto a disc and sharing it with family and friends. So, we have "solutions" that require burning the 3D video to an SD card so it can be viewed. It's a tiny hoop most people couldn't dream of jumping through. What's worse, the contents of that SD card can be burned to disc and played on some AVCHD 2.0-compatible Blu-ray 3D players (some Sony's) and not others (some Panasonic's).

Want more bad news? My earliest 3D displays would play 3D video from my JVC TD1 just fine, but some of the later ones won't. My Samsung C8000 3D plasma played all the TD1 video without an issue. The D7000 replacement (C8000 screen went bad) would play SbS 3D video from the camcorder just fine, but not mp4 MVC 3D video. It wouldn't play one of the primary colors and cost me a "repair" trip, plus weeks of lost time trying to get it "fixed." There was nothing wrong with the camera, just a change in what the plasma would play. My JVC RS40 played video from my TD1 just fine (except for the horrible ghosting), but the next generation Epson 6010 3D projector (which improved on the ghosting performance) wouldn't play the video at full resolution. Some Blu-ray 3D players will play Blu-ray 3D content from a DVD disc, while others require that content to be on an actual Blu-ray disc.

Consumer 3D has been botched from day one. Instead of cleaning up their mess, the CE manufacturers have simply moved on to 4K, leaving consumers feeling misled and betrayed. Now, for me, the small window opened up the capability to create my own 3D videos at a reasonable price point. That's tremendous and I love it. But again, that doesn't help the average person who doesn't have the skill or patience to work around the problems that the short-sightedness created. That's why you have angry consumers returning their 3D camcorders.

I couldn't agree with you more, you have basically stated all the points of why i'm angry about having spent hundreds on my TD20 only to realise the archiving limitations afterwards. I too have sold my camcorder on using Ebay, I was lucky to get what i had originally paid for it.

So what with all this 4k hype, I have seen the displays, it looks impressive but what media format will be used for content? BD is only 50GB, is this going to be capable for 4k 2 hour film?
post #127 of 174
There's plenty of talk about 4K Blu-ray with a larger disc capacity, plus 4K streaming and even 4K broadcast down the line. What the CE makers aren't talking about in their ads is that you may not be able to tell any difference between 4K and 1080p unless you sit close to your "small" 4K TV. Unless you sit VERY close, a 55" or 65" 4K TV might not even be big enough to matter. Pay the high cost of playing with 4K at your own risk, just like 3D. On the plus side, 4K probably will bring improvements in the future, even if all of us can't take advantage of them right away, also just like 3D. IMO, the introduction of 3D forced CE manufacturers to improve their products, so in that sense it benefited everyone. In the long run, 3D and 4K will make for a better viewing experience. It's simply that right now the playground is a bloody mess.
post #128 of 174
I really believe that 4k has no real place in the consumer market as there will be virtually no difference in the viewing experience on a domestic tv as Joe has already pointed out. In the US, tvs tend to be a little bigger on average than the UK, but even so there will be little noticeable difference. Considering that most of the programmes that we watch on current HD tvs are not even in HD anyway, what is the point of 4k?

The point of 4k is that broadcasters and film/content producers will benefit from the higher resolution, enabling more flexible use of original footage, cheaper ways of producing cinema viewable footage etc. From my own point of view, I could use one 4k camera to crop several different shots from the same view, or crop a close up from a longer shot. The trouble is that engineers and technicians live in a sheltered world where quality rules and they need the average consumer to invest money in 4k that they don't need, to finance those that want it! I wonder what clever marketing ploys will be used to sell to the gullible public.

Roger
post #129 of 174
What gets me is all these stupid effects that get bundled with editing software - if they can do all that junk with video they can surely convert framerates in a plugin or some kind of script. PAL and NTSC conversion has been a pita from when I started messing with video thirty years ago. I had high hopes when HD came along but look at the mess its in today again. Its all very nice plugging into a Tv to view 3D but I'm going broke buying Extreme SD cards. Come on Sony or Cyberlink get your act together give us a framerate conversion that just works.

As Joe Clark says - To me, "consumer 3D" feels like a cruel tease.

I also think (know) 4k will be a dead duck in the home - most of my friends still dont have HD or Blu-ray and I wasn't immpressed by a 55" Sony demo - there was a line structure visable and viewing a few foot away it looked like any other 1080 TV next to it.
post #130 of 174
Oh, 4K will be more intesting for both 2D but also s3D-fans then you will believe today. There are some reasons for that.

First, especially if you go for raw footage (what must be considered carefully) you will have a tremendous reserve in editing the footage. Second, you will be able to pan and select sections from the frames without generating losses in line resolutions. That two points are valid for 2D editors too.

The third point will be interesting for s3D fans: A 4K playback will allow you for the first time to playback 2x full HD for example in side by side or top-bottom. In other words - here you will not loose any more resolution if you use our MVC cameras today. Sure, you will need a 4K HDTV and a 4K player - but that is interesting since here you will overcome the limitation of our 3D-Blu-ray standards that we have today.

But for sure, it may take some time until the price of the hardware will decrease to a level that most of us will be willing to spend.
post #131 of 174
Surely Wolfgang, that just reinforces what I said in my previous post, that 4k will be great for those that film and edit in both 2d and 3d, but will be of no value to those viewing at home.

Whilst I also agree that 4k will improve the quality of 3d images, I am afraid that after the debacle of the last surge in 3d that there will be no new surge of interest in 3d just because the quality of the image has improved. Until wide angle glasses free 3d is the norm, there will still be the same problems of incompatibility with glasses, formats, no cross manufacturer standardisation and lack of 3d programme output. The BBC have already said they rather have no long term plans for 3d broadcasting and broadcasters around the world have the same lack of enthusiasm for 3d. Add to that the requirement for new playback equipment yet to be designed and produced and trying to persuade everybody that has invested a lot of money in HD tvs that they need to ditch them for 4k.

I think that those of us that are already 3d enthusiasts and producers will be keen to be involved in 4k, but without the support of a recently ripped of 3d public, I can't see the financial return making 4k a good commercial investment for manufacturers of consumer products for some considerable time.

Roger
post #132 of 174
The Sony 4K set that I watched at a Best Buy Magnolia Store had great passive 3D. It was LCD, so it had all the inherent limitations of that technology. But I'm sold on passive 3D, and 4K passive 3D delivers all 1080 lines of resolution. I have an LG set that does passive 3D (it's my 3D editing monitor), but it halves the resolution to 540 lines. 4K gets around that nasty limitation.

As Roger points out, though, the average consumer doesn't care about any of that. If they can't see a difference between 4K and 1080p, they're not going to be happy about paying more for it. Will they be impressed enough to replace all their current HD displays to have 4K? Especially after what happened with 3D, it seems very unlikely to me. If anything, I think 4K is going to be an even harder sell than 3D to the average consumer. With 3D, the difference is obvious, like it or not. With 4K vs 1080p, at normal viewing distances, good luck getting most people excited about the "improvement."
post #133 of 174
It will be the same game as allways. For the first time, 4K HDTVs will be much to expensive. After some time they will drop in Price, and some people will start to purchase and test units. And we will see a slow uptake for the first 4K cameras - not so much Blackmagic Units but the Sony cameras could be again a startpoint (as we saw it with the FX1 for HDV).

Well, and everything else is open. What People oversee typically is that the substitution of an old technology will always tend to take 10 years. We have not finished that Substitution from SD to HD yet - Blu-ray Players are still at a low market penetration rate. How can we expect to see a 4K success in the first years of 4K at all?
post #134 of 174
The trouble is that if there is no great take up on 4k early on, manufacturers may decide to do what they did with 3d and cut their losses and move on to some other quick profit maker. It's reached the stage where improvements in picture quality are quite subtle and probably not enough to convince the ordinary consumer. Sure, clever marketing and demonstrations will persuade some people to part with their cash, but how many?

Having seen clients jump with excitement at seeing how much better their old dvds look on their new HD tv compared to their old standard one, some people can be persuaded by their own ignorance. The manufacturers will also put together wonderful nature shots in 4k to demonstrate how great their 80" 4k tvs look, but where will the consumer get quality images to view, on their 720p Blu-ray Disc, or their old DVD player?

Manufacturers will quite likely have to force 4k on the consumer by just withdrawing HD completely from their products. Content will always be the final decider, as was proved with VHS versus Betamax. That was how CDs were forced on the Public, by the industry agreeing to stop producing records against the consumers wishes, but having content on the new CDs. Now if they could all get their heads together and come up with wide angle glasses free 4k 3d tv and the broadcast content to go with it, they might be on to a winner :-)

Roger
post #135 of 174
I'd take a 1080p OLED display over an LCD 4K set any day of the week. OLED has the best 3D image I've ever seen, consumer or commercial. It has an incredible 2D image, too. If they can one day solve the yield problems with OLED's and start producing them in quantity (at larger sizes and reasonable prices) the television landscape will change forever. I know it's a big if, but affordable OLED would represent a game-changing revolution in display technology. And 4K OLED 3D? I don't think anything short of holography could beat it.

I digress, but it's a digression from bitchin' - so probably preferable. biggrin.gif
post #136 of 174
Thread Starter 
I consider the OLED TV's I've seen so far to have an inferior picture quality due to it's highly reflective screen surface. Sitting in front of one is like sitting in front of a mirror. Last thing I want to see when watching a movie is the reflection of the entire audience super imposed on the screen. This is least a problem with a very busy screen image of bright colors which masks the reflection the most, but when large regions of black, high glossy black since there is no such thing as a flat black on an OLED screen, is most problematic, e.g. during credit roll at the end of a movie.
post #137 of 174
But that's just the first set or two, Don. The promise is in the truly infinite contrast, accurate color and ultra fast switching. A highly reflective surface is a relatively minor issue that can be fixed. They've had many years to try to refine plasma, LCD, etc., without coming close to the basic image quality of OLED. And for 3D in particular, I've never seen a display that can do it better. DLP is ghost free, but its contrast sucks big time compared to OLED. Sony and Panasonic (as well as Samsung and LG) are all working on OLED. As far as I'm concerned, they can't work fast enough. biggrin.gif
post #138 of 174
Thread Starter 
Joe- I have no problem with OLED if they can make it look as good as 4K LCD/LED screens ( with regard to the mirror problem I see ). Plus make them as low cost and the same size. Until then I can be quite satisfied with the 4K 65" LED/LCD passive screen for home entertainment. Since I have seen both side by side from several manufacturers, I think I can honestly say, I won't tow the mantra that OLED is the best picture.

Now we both edit so I know you will appreciate this when I tell you that Sony has a professional 24" glasses free auto stereo OLED monitor designed for editors that is a 4K resolution intended for edit workstations. It is gorgeous and has no reflection as it incorporates a non-reflective coating. It it wasn't so darn expensive I would put one in here. It was demoed at NAB, not CES.
post #139 of 174
24" would be too small for me now. I'm used to editing on a 47" LG passive display and I've gotten used to the XL size. biggrin.gif

I saw a Sony 4K LCD (passive 3D), a Samsung 4K LCD (active 3D) and the Samsung OLED (active 3D) display at a Magnolia store on the same day. I watched several challenging clips from my own 3D collection (commercial discs). 4K LCD looks great for detail, but to me the shadow detail and (especially) contrast still suffer with those sets, just as they do with 1080p sets. Contrast looks better to me on the OLED than on my plasma - or any other display I've ever seen. I love deep contrast on a set. When they're available at affordable prices, I'll add one to my edit suite, too.
post #140 of 174
Right guys - finally went and got a new PC i7 4770,win8 64 bit, 16gb, geforce 660, 2TB and a 500 gb drives. grabbed a load of sea world footage - an hours worth, done a few transitions and made a half sbs 1080p file for my WDTV player and it works!!! Next job maybe edit something and try a Blu-ray disc at 720 50p. nice to get a look at what my TD30 can do ;0)
post #141 of 174
Great! Sounds like you're having fun now. That's what this hobby is all about! If you get stuck, feel free to ask questions. All of us continue to climb the learning curve, but with help we usually find a way to carry on.
post #142 of 174
Today i had this cam in my hand, and wondered that it DOES HAS "AE shift" in 3D mode!
Great news, because with TD10, 80% of my shots was in manual exposure mode for avoid
overexposed skies, etc.
Even a white balance shift settings is available. Maybe it can fix WB?
Last time i recorded some wedding with TD10, and WB changed in every minute frown.gif
Maybe i will upgrade to this cam despite the smaller interaxial.

Anybody know if zebra pattern work in 3D?
post #143 of 174
Last month, I noticed a little eraser head sized patch of dead pixels on the bottom of the screen of my td30. After my xmas trip, I noticed another little small patch growing.
Sent it back to Sony. They will cover parts but I have to pay $55 for labor. They also sold me a 3 year parts and labor extended warranty for $20.
post #144 of 174
So I managed to record a 3d Blu-ray disc at 720 50p not a great deal better than sbs 1080 but at last I can watch my edited footage in 3d. Just not great on my projector. ;0(
post #145 of 174
I took out whatever happens cover with my TD30 5 pounds a month with Currys uk. I think its for three years but you can cancel when you want. 20 bucks seems a good deal ;0)
post #146 of 174
Hi guys, here's a video I done in Busch Gardens Florida in October. Check it and let me know what you think ;0)


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n00YduYmKBY
post #147 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarman512 View Post

Hi guys, here's a video I done in Busch Gardens Florida in October. Check it and let me know what you think ;0)


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n00YduYmKBY

Looks good, nice colors and composition. The only complaint is the panning jumps as if the stabilizer holds on to the image, then lets go, causing an uneven pan judder. Perhaps it's my display (28" passive PC monitor). Did you notice this? Other than that, it's fun to watch, nice editing.

Also, what are you using to edit your footage. You can create a full 3D HD 1080p 24hz bluray with Sony's new Movie Studio 13 Platinum (downsized Vegas Pro clone).
post #148 of 174
Thread Starter 
I don't have a 3D monitor as I'm traveling and had to watch on my iPad. I did not notice any stutter and all pans I saw looked smooth. Looking forward to watching your work when I get home. I did watch it in SBS and 720p as I have LTE on this iPad now.
post #149 of 174
Thanks, I've noticed judder on some devices myself. I thought it might be because its a PAL 25 hz TD 30 and youtube was making frames. I used Cyberlink power director for this. Next one I'll try Movie studio 12 but it seems to freeze a lot and stop responding. I'll try rendering at 30 hz and see if that helps the judder. ;0)
Edited by guitarman512 - 4/10/14 at 5:51am
post #150 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by threed123 View Post

Looks good, nice colors and composition. The only complaint is the panning jumps as if the stabilizer holds on to the image, then lets go, causing an uneven pan judder. Perhaps it's my display (28" passive PC monitor). Did you notice this? Other than that, it's fun to watch, nice editing.

Also, what are you using to edit your footage. You can create a full 3D HD 1080p 24hz bluray with Sony's new Movie Studio 13 Platinum (downsized Vegas Pro clone).
I burned a 720 50hz Blu-ray still to try a 1080. Think we have the same projector HD33?
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