Sony shows new 3D camcorder at CES. hDR TD30 - Page 2

You get no sympathy from me! 2 TD10's and 2 NEX 5n's with 9 lenses, two fluid heads, video light, laser range finder, and 20" twin bench with 3 sliders



assembled and testing:




On location-




Rig in action:

That's because it's not a Sony.

Speaking of which, we should get back to the topic of the TD30

Here is a display showing the breakout of the Recycled plastic parts in the TD30

Hi Richard. You've been on vacation for quite awhile.

Sony says their approach for consumer 3D will be more in line with other 2D products for features and ergonomics. But if you are considering for more pro or serious amateur work, look to their pro line for these more sophisticated features. Considering that philosophy, I feel we can expect to see 1080 60p added to the current 24p formats and next will be the 2160p 24fps as the new 4k systems become commonplace.

Back to low cost consumer grade equipment. The nature of the market these days is an evolution where consumers are not buying camcorders like they used to since every smart phone has one good enough to satisfy most consumers. Because of this we can expect to see as much as they can pack into a product that is not out of sight price-wise. Its a tricky balance.

For serious 3D work like many of us do here, the best approach, IMO, is to get a good 2D camera and pair them up on a bench, then shoot at 60p or 24p if you want. The pairing process is not difficult and the frame accuracy and alignment pretty straight forward as well. Cost? yeah, that is slightly more than double the 2D equipment. But you will get the flexibility you want.

48 fps right now is still an experiment in the theater so we're quite a ways off from that in production equipment.

3dPCH- I'm at a loss to understand what it is you want to see from Sony.

I find their offering quite adequate for just about all our needs. The problem, maybe, is that you want everything in one camera but I'm afraid that is a physical impossibility. There is no way we can create a wide stereo interaxial camcorder in a package that is also portable for your liking. The closest is to attach a device on the lens made for this purpose. They do offer features in a similar HD10 sized camcorder that is now defined as "professional" which is the 24 frames per second 3D rate.

Higher resolution is just breaking this year in the 4K cameras. We saw some at CES but I suspect this April at NAB we will see plenty in the pro end. I plan to be reporting here what I find.

I do agree with you that to produce a camcorder, Sony had to define their market and what "that" market most desires. The TD30 gets even closer to that market which today is the serious consumer. Today, the casual consumer is happy to just shoot video with a smart phone and then immediately upload it to the web to one of the social web servers. A much smaller market is what I refer to the professional wannabe. This is the amateur who studies video and 3D like they are a pro and shoots with the intent of photographic perfection. It is a serious hobby. We are in that category and some of us maybe even were once in the business. I see many serious amateurs not understanding how the real professionals work. Let me assure you that no pro has a single camera that does everything. Every pro I know works with a "kit" of several cameras and accessories. We build out the right kit and camera for the task. This optimizes the end result. In some cases a pro may own one camera that is top of the line but then have many accessories necessary for the job. But since most professional tasks make use of multicamera angles, they too eventually add a second and third, etc camera to their kit. In 3D, I found an immediate need for adding a second TD10 which then gave me a variety of frame rates as well as the ability to shoot longer distance ranges of 3D.
You have to define what you want to do and then build your Kit. Don't expect Sony to define that for you and then build it for you. They're in the business of designing and building the parts of the kit, not the kit itself.

The only reason to use 24p is to record your video in the same format as the distribution media, 3D BD which requires 24p. When you shoot in 60i, the conversion will always result in some artifacting. It used to be pretty bad but today, it is tolerable, IMO.

I agree with Wolfgang that the Z10K is the best camcorder for those who need to have a more professional tool for their craft. The only issue I have ever had with it was the weight balance. If Sony hadn't improved their 60i to 24p conversion I would own a Z10K today. Since, I have acquired two twin systems that shoot both 24p and 60p so my options are available but these are twin rigs and not really good for shooting in crowds.

If you are in the market for a professional level tool for 3D, I would wait to see what will be offered in April at the NAB. I think we're too close now to be jumping the gun for a 2 year old camcorder. Once NAB is over, then the Z10K may come down in price even more.

As far as the Sony HDR TD10 and 20 as well as the JVC 3D camcorders, both consumer and professional, these are discontinued and available until inventory is sold off. JVC has not made any announcements on a new version. You will be able to get good bargains on these 4 camcorders as the supplies run out. But with JVC, you will be buying a recorder that has had difficulty with editing software, not so much today, but it is a 3 year old technology. With Sony, the prices look good too and you have the support of Sony infrastructure which is better than the others.

Wolfgang-

Haven't heard much from you with your beam splitter rig. Last I recall, you were looking to replace the twin HD10's with conventional 2D camcorders. Personally, I haven't found a need for beam splitter rig. I'm sure it is a considerably more difficult system to set up than even the twin rig with third camcorder I used for the Bellagio Fountain shoot. Plus that gave me the option of two POV's for a single shot. Still, I often think that system would be so much better with a Z10K in 24p.

"worser" is not a word in English. It's just "worse" It's even worse.

To date, other than some testing in the back yard, I have not used the 1080-60p recording with my twin TD10's. I did shoot 1080 60p with the twin NEX5n and here the quality was exceptional. But these cameras' main superiority over video camcorders is in the lens quality and I get a greater range of wide angle capability than any of my video camcorders.

Note- Yesterday, I pulled the trigger on a Panasonic Z10K to add to my shooting kit. I see some need in future projects for the triple rig shown above with twin NEX5n with 10mm wide angle and a longer lens 3D camcorder in the center. In the above triple rig, I was shooting in all 60i to be compatible with the Sony TD10's only 3D mode. The game plan is to replace the TD10 in this setup with the Z10K to shoot in all 24P mode. I'll add more general comments in the Panasonic thread.

3dPCH- There are many directions to improve the video quality of a 3D camcorder. Today ( discounting cost) we have a pretty good range of choice to get anything we want for interaxial choice. For consumer, budgets you can use a collection of camcorders and then a bench and two cameras to achieve the full range. (what I have done) . When it comes to image quality, resolution and color purity is the key, followed by geometric accuracy and capture area. Glass physics is fairly old school so size matters and the larger the lenses the finer the glass, the better the image. This means we have a limit on how small the camcorder is and maintain lens quality. For the imager, we can compress the pixels smaller but light sensitivity relies today on capture area. You get more light energy with larger size imagers. Finally there is the color purity which is limited by two technologies in digital cameras- 3 chip and single chip. 3 chip takes more size but gives us the color integrity that single chips can't (yet). The common limitation in many of these technologies is physical size. In other words, bigger cameras are better capable. However, some features can also enhance quality like bit rate for color purity.
While you feel the TD10 interaxial is "just fine" on the TD10, it's probably fine because it suits your project range. For those who work in other environments, the TD10 is nowhere close to doing the job.

If you are prepared to deal with the incompatibilities, the JVC shoots some fine 3D. Joe Clark has basically mastered this model.

Wolfgang- While moving to 48p was a great idea for film shooting and Peter Jackson used it successfully, the limitation according to Red Epic supervisor Gareth Daily, the present day limitation is in the theater projectors, not the cameras and post. When the projection issues are resolved, he sees even 120fps becoming the new standard.
Personally, I agree with him that 48fps is just a stepping stone to higher rates, if not 120 fps then 60 fps becoming the new norm. If I had a way to project 60fps in 1080p x 1920 in my HT I would shoot it all the time. I can shoot it now with no dropped frames in 2 of my 3D camera systems. I can edit it and preview nearly full frame rate. I just can't distribute or project it.