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Official "scorpion" SI build thread. - Page 5

post #121 of 158
2/6/13 at 11:05pm
How do you have the speakons wired if you are using them?
Edited by robertcharles - 2/6/13 at 11:15pm
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post #122 of 158
2/6/13 at 11:06pm
Remember that they are wired differently for bridge and stereo
Just use the banana jacks on the amp and go to the cabs and let it go. Then we can work on one thing at a time.
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post #123 of 158
2/6/13 at 11:08pm
Before you go further how are the cables for the cabinets wired to the amp. Did you buy them are make them? If speakon, they have to be wired for bridged
Edited by robertcharles - 2/6/13 at 11:14pm
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post #124 of 158
2/7/13 at 5:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

Thanks carp. I'm actually glad to hear your impressions on the Axioms. I've been hoping to run across someone who has demoed those and a Seos setup. I know this is really a long shot without an AB, but would you consider the Seos more of a bright, or laid back speakers. Reason I ask is; one I actually prefer a more in your face presentation, and two, I would like to continue to run my Axiom height, wide, and surrounds. I think the QS8's do a fantastic job with more placement flexibility.



The SEOS was definitely NOT laid back. I have always craved a crystal clear dynamic sound BUT without sounding harsh and that's what the SEOS is like. I would describe the comparison like this - the SEOS is every bit as clear and forward like the Axioms, but much smoother. I always got fatigue listening to the Axioms and they had a very thin sound, while the SEOS sound much fuller. My room isn't huge (17x23) but the Axioms sound very small and didn't fill the room like the SEOS.

It sounds like I'm being overly critical of the Axioms - but if you compared the sound of my room a few years ago with the Axiom/SVS combination to today with Noesis/Submersive it truly is night and day. Back then I spent all my time trying to tweak the sound either with eq or placement or crossover, whatever and could never get it sounding how I like. Now I just sit back and listen to music and have a hard time shutting it off to go to bed.

I recently heard the QS8's and I agree with you, they work great as surrounds.
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post #125 of 158
2/7/13 at 9:39am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertcharles View Post

Remember that they are wired differently for bridge and stereo
Just use the banana jacks on the amp and go to the cabs and let it go. Then we can work on one thing at a time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robertcharles View Post

Before you go further how are the cables for the cabinets wired to the amp. Did you buy them are make them? If speakon, they have to be wired for bridged

I am using the screw on terminals on the back of the amp specifically used for bridge mode.
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post #126 of 158
2/7/13 at 9:51am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I always got fatigue listening to the Axioms and they had a very thin sound, while the SEOS sound much fuller. My room isn't huge (17x23) but the Axioms sound very small and didn't fill the room like the SEOS.

That's a good way to describe them. I like the Axioms as a whole, but if I were to nitpick I would concur that they come across sounding a little on the thin side, and can definitely become fatiguing at higher listening levels for an extended amount of time. They are also a lot more picky with placement than other brands I have owned.

My room is considerably narrower than yours however, and I like the shallow mounting depth of the QS8/M2i for wide and surrounds. I don't think I could get away (or would want to), with large speakers stuck to my side walls.
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post #127 of 158
2/7/13 at 10:54am
For the EP4000 in bridged mode the Dip switches should be like this:

1: to the left

2: to the right

3: to the right

4: to the right

5: to the right

6: to the right

7: to the right

8: to the right

9: to the right

10: to the left

So all your mode dip switches to the right except 1 and 10 which will be to the left. Dip switches 2 and 9 actually don't matter once you turn off the low cut filter 3 and 8 but it just makes it easier.

I am not surprised you get output when connecting to input 2 if you have your dip switches set up for parallel inputs, I haven't experienced it my-self though.

XT32 is great but none of the auto calibration programs work that great on getting sub levels right IMO, it is always best to go back with an SPL meter and dial it in your-self.

You can try using just a single EP4000 in stereo mode like Robert suggested to trouble shoot. The SI subs are almost 89 db sensitivity so with 6 drivers you will be over 100db with only 1 watt.

You have to watch for phase cancellation when using multiple drivers. You can try the 9volt battery test but you will need a helper because one person has to hold the 9volt battery to the binding posts while the other looks to see what the drivers do. You can also do this by your-self by running speaker cables to the front so you can hook up the battery and see what the drivers do. When you hook up the 9volt battery to the terminals with + to + and - to - the drivers should move out in the same direction, when you reverse that to + to - and - to + the drivers should all move in the same direction. Do this to both cabinets and make sure the drivers move in the same direction which means if + to + and they all move out then both cabs need to be in unison, if not then they are canceling each other out and you will hear no bass.
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post #128 of 158
2/7/13 at 12:38pm
Yea and then you will have your amp gain turned way up and wonder why there is really good bass in really weird parts of your room and none at your LP. And then you will start getting upset that the drivers aren't what you thought they would be, and then you will realize that you need to double check your work, and get a 9 volt battery. And then once you finally get everything in phase, you will wonder why you were so stupid to not check in the first place....No I don't know this from experience...haha
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post #129 of 158
2/7/13 at 12:45pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

For the EP4000 in bridged mode the Dip switches should be like this:

1: to the left

2: to the right

3: to the right

4: to the right (this would be parallel)

5: to the right (this would be parallel)

6: to the right

7: to the right

8: to the right

9: to the right

10: to the left

So all your mode dip switches to the right except 1 and 10 which will be to the left. Dip switches 2 and 9 actually don't matter once you turn off the low cut filter 3 and 8 but it just makes it easier.

I am not surprised you get output when connecting to input 2 if you have your dip switches set up for parallel inputs, I haven't experienced it my-self though.

They aren't set up for parallel inputs. Your method would be. I had them setup for stereo.

I have it setup this way.

1) clip limiter - left (off)
2) left (irrelevant)
3) low cut filter - right (off)
4) stereo/parallel - left (stereo)
5) stereo/parallel - left (stereo)
6) bridge mode - right (on)
7) bridge mode - right (on)
8) low filter - right (off)
9) left (irrelevant)
10) clip limiter - left (off)

As far as the stereo/parallel switches, it specifically states in the manual;
"Mono bridged mode switches must be disengaged when running in parallel mode".
Quote:
XT32 is great but none of the auto calibration programs work that great on getting sub levels right IMO, it is always best to go back with an SPL meter and dial it in your-self.

I agree. I will go back and tweak once I get it up and running properly
Quote:
You have to watch for phase cancellation when using multiple drivers. You can try the 9volt battery test but you will need a helper because one person has to hold the 9volt battery to the binding posts while the other looks to see what the drivers do. You can also do this by your-self by running speaker cables to the front so you can hook up the battery and see what the drivers do. When you hook up the 9volt battery to the terminals with + to + and - to - the drivers should move out in the same direction, when you reverse that to + to - and - to + the drivers should all move in the same direction. Do this to both cabinets and make sure the drivers move in the same direction which means if + to + and they all move out then both cabs need to be in unison, if not then they are canceling each other out and you will hear no bass.

I hear bass, it's just not that strong. It's just about on par with my Ultra which surprised me. I'm only testing with music but that's my initial impression. I'll check the polarity, but I was pretty careful when wiring these up.
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post #130 of 158
2/8/13 at 9:29pm
Any luck on the system yet?


Keep cranking,

Robert
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post #131 of 158
2/8/13 at 10:12pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertcharles View Post

Any luck on the system yet?

I've been playing with it a little bit without getting too involved at the moment. I hooked the SMS1 back up (setting eq to 6 for bypass), and re ran Audessey. Well it required setting the volume on the SMS to 15 before it would calibrate without a setup error. For a quick test I set the sub level to 0, and left the SMS at 15. With the EP's gains at about 1/2 the signal lights come on quite a bit. Anything less on the SMS and they barely light up.

I popped in a couple CD's that have some decent bass and things are sounding much better. The crazy part is; I literally have to put my hand on the sub to even tell they are on. The output should be crazy by the time these things are visibly moving.

* I'm really trying to find the best way to setup the gain structure. I have read through about 3 billion threads and everyone has a differing opinion on what's right and wrong.
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post #132 of 158
2/8/13 at 10:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

I've been playing with it a little bit without getting too involved at the moment. I hooked the SMS1 back up (setting eq to 6 for bypass), and re ran Audessey. Well it required setting the volume on the SMS to 15 before it would calibrate without a setup error. For a quick test I set the sub level to 0, and left the SMS at 15. With the EP's gains at about 1/2 the signal lights come on quite a bit. Anything less on the SMS and they barely light up.

I popped in a couple CD's that have some decent bass and things are sounding much better. The crazy part is; I literally have to put my hand on the sub to even tell they are on. The output should be crazy by the time these things are visibly moving.

* I'm really trying to find the best way to setup the gain structure. I have read through about 3 billion threads and everyone has a differing opinion on what's right and wrong.

Good to hear you're getting it sorted out! biggrin.gif
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post #133 of 158
2/8/13 at 10:37pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrodynamic View Post

Good to hear you're getting it sorted out! biggrin.gif

Yup. smile.gif

I'm so nervous about clipping anything I'm sure I've been pretty conservative with the signal. I'm sure it will be a whole new animal once I get the gains setup properly and am utilizing them to their full potential. biggrin.gif
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post #134 of 158
2/9/13 at 2:52am
FYI I think mjaudio is correct on the dip switches. From what ive gathered, when your in bridged mode, stereo/ parallel makes no difference unless your sending another signal to a separate amp.

There are a couple how-to's on level matching subs. What I have done is to set them up separately, minus 3db from where I want to end up. Then once they are both combined, I should be pretty close to target.
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post #135 of 158
2/9/13 at 8:06am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

FYI I think mjaudio is correct on the dip switches. From what ive gathered, when your in bridged mode, stereo/ parallel makes no difference unless your sending another signal to a separate amp.

As quoted from my earlier post. "Mono bridged mode switches must be disengaged when running in parallel mode".

I'd rather error on the side of the manual. Other than that we both agree on the positioning of the switches.
Quote:
There are a couple how-to's on level matching subs. What I have done is to set them up separately, minus 3db from where I want to end up. Then once they are both combined, I should be pretty close to target.

I'm pretty familiar with level matching, I've run multiple subs for quite some time. it's the gain structure setup that seems to have everyone in disagreement.
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post #136 of 158
2/10/13 at 9:38pm
So, how are the sub working out? Any SPL numbers or ear to ear smiles yet?


Keep cranking,

Robert
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post #137 of 158
2/10/13 at 10:05pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertcharles View Post

So, how are the sub working out? Any SPL numbers or ear to ear smiles yet?


Keep cranking,

Robert

I won't have anything definitive until mid this week. I'm off Wed and will spend part of the day tuning and putting them through the paces. smile.gif
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post #138 of 158
2/10/13 at 10:10pm
Have you tried giving them the juice with some bass heavy music yet just to see the output potential?
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post #139 of 158
2/10/13 at 10:16pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertcharles View Post

Have you tried giving them the juice with some bass heavy music yet just to see the output potential?

I dug through a few older CD's that I had but nothing has left me overwhelmed yet. I need to go back through my library and check out a few more.

Now that I think about it, my Telarc SACD with the 1812 Overture should do the trick. smile.gif
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post #140 of 158
2/10/13 at 10:36pm
The first song I played through my LMS cabinets was "Low Rider" by WAR. I will say that the bass was just intense from the first shot, and I was running the cabinet on a single channel of a QSC RMX 2450. I was hoping that would be the case with your build. Hopefully, you get things ironed out. Good luck!

Keep cranking,

Robert
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post #141 of 158
2/13/13 at 9:26pm
Thread Starter 
Well, I haven't been feeling great so I decided to veg out and do a little tweaking. This is the first time I've messed with sealed subs so I could use some input on the settings.

I started tuning the SMS1 first before running Audyssey. Here's the initial calibration, plot a house curve in mind. I started with a nasty hole at 80 hz, but playing with phase alleviated this.


Now I have a question about the boost. I have a tough time adding boost as I've always been taught to stay away from it. I added the max of 6db's at 15 hz with a 48 slope, and 4b at 34 hz.


I then ran Audyssey again. Smoothed out a bit, especially above 100hz, but I'm not sure what was going on around 40hz.


Here's after I tweaked a bit more on the curve. Not sure what happened above 100 as I didn't touch that but I'll mess with it later. I only ran my mains and sub this go around, so I'll be back at it again. Very happy with the curve thus far.


Now I posted this in another thread, but I don't see the reasoning behind spending an hour setting my gain structure. To maximize all components prior to clipping I had sub out at 0, SMS1 at 16, and 4000 gains wide open. After calibration, I'm back to Onkyo at -12.5, SMS1 at 16, and 4000 gains at around a 1/4. If nothing else I guess I have peace of mind knowing I will never have to worry about clipping any components in my chain as I'm nowhere close to where I was maximized.

Now on to my impressions. As mentioned, I only tuned mains and sub. I bumped my sub level up by about 5 db's. I initially bumped it up by 15 just to see what these were capable of, but that's another story. smile.gif I popped in Blue Man Group, which I've listened to a thousand times. I really enjoy the combination of instruments that come together. First off, I am still amazed at how little movement these subs are making at sane listening levels. I literally have to put my hand up to them to tell they are on. They are just idling along.

Now I've had plenty of critical listening to my SVS PB12/2 Ultra, and have been very happy with it thus far. When initially taking the plunge into the DIY world, I was hesitant to let it go. I didn't think it would be possible to create as good a sub as SVS had made. After all it was over $2,500 new when I bought it. The company had spend hundreds of thousands on R&D, and I was buying direct from the MFG, so I wasn't paying for middleman markup. Now I don't want to take away anything from SVS, but needless to say, it's firmly in my rearview. smile.gif

First things first. Even with less than ideal placement a multi sub setup definitely holds an immediate advantage. I've run dual setups in the past, but nothing in a dedicated room, and it was so long ago I didn't ever compare single to dual placement. Going from a single to a dual in the same room, I'm very impressed at how much better the fr is in multiple positions. With my single sub, I could get the LP pretty dang good, but move 5' from it and all hell broke loose. Now I have yet to take any definitive measurements other than walking around the room and plopping the SMS mic down (my calibrated UMM should be here shortly); but it is a night and day difference already.

The other thing that really amazes me is how transparent these things are. While my Ultra was about as good as I thought it could get for the money; due to the less than perfect response, it never really disappeared. When I closed my eyes, I could always pinpoint it's area. In fact, no matter how I turned it, flipped it, etc; it just seemed to roll down one wall and fade. The main seating area also had a hole that I couldn't get rid of. On the flip side, these SI's are absolutely invisible from an audio perspective. The bass seems to be coming from everywhere, and yet no where at the same time. It's not boomy, and blends seamlessly with the mains at normal listening levels. Even pushing the gains a bit, they still don't jump out at you like my Ultra did when running hot. If I walked someone in blindfolded and asked them to point out the source, I'd bet a weeks paycheck they wouldn't even be close. In fact, during some tracks, I swore I had subs behind me. The main seating area seems to have improved a bit as well. Time will tell when I actually get a movie fired up, but so far things are looking optimistic there too.

Needless to say I am so glad I decided to take the plunge and jump into the DIY world. This entire setup cost me less than I spent on my Ultra a few years ago. I owe a lot of thanks to many on here for trailblazing the way and answering questions along the way.
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post #142 of 158
2/13/13 at 9:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

Now on to my impressions. As mentioned, I only tuned mains and sub. I bumped my sub level up by about 5 db's. I initially bumped it up by 15 just to see what these were capable of, but that's another story. smile.gif I popped in Blue Man Group, which I've listened to a thousand times. I really enjoy the combination of instruments that come together. First off, I am still amazed at how little movement these subs are making at sane listening levels. I literally have to put my hand up to them to tell they are on. They are just idling along.

Now I've had plenty of critical listening to my SVS PB12/2 Ultra, and have been very happy with it thus far. When initially taking the plunge into the DIY world, I was hesitant to let it go. I didn't think it would be possible to create as good a sub as SVS had made. After all it was over $2,500 new when I bought it. The company had spend hundreds of thousands on R&D, and I was buying direct from the MFG, so I wasn't paying for middleman markup. Now I don't want to take away anything from SVS, but needless to say, it's firmly in my rearview. smile.gif

First things first. Even with less than ideal placement a multi sub setup definitely holds an immediate advantage. I've run dual setups in the past, but nothing in a dedicated room, and it was so long ago I didn't ever compare single to dual placement. Going from a single to a dual in the same room, I'm very impressed at how much better the fr is in multiple positions. With my single sub, I could get the LP pretty dang good, but move 5' from it and all hell broke loose. Now I have yet to take any definitive measurements other than walking around the room and plopping the SMS mic down (my calibrated UMM should be here shortly); but it is a night and day difference already.

The other thing that really amazes me is how transparent these things are. While my Ultra was about as good as I thought it could get for the money; due to the less than perfect response, it never really disappeared. When I closed my eyes, I could always pinpoint it's area. In fact, no matter how I turned it, flipped it, etc; it just seemed to roll down one wall and fade. The main seating area also had a hole that I couldn't get rid of. On the flip side, these SI's are absolutely invisible from an audio perspective. The bass seems to be coming from everywhere, and yet no where at the same time. It's not boomy, and blends seamlessly with the mains at normal listening levels. Even pushing the gains a bit, they still don't jump out at you like my Ultra did when running hot. If I walked someone in blindfolded and asked them to point out the source, I'd bet a weeks paycheck they wouldn't even be close. In fact, during some tracks, I swore I had subs behind me. The main seating area seems to have improved a bit as well. Time will tell when I actually get a movie fired up, but so far things are looking optimistic there too.

Needless to say I am so glad I decided to take the plunge and jump into the DIY world. This entire setup cost me less than I spent on my Ultra a few years ago. I owe a lot of thanks to many on here for trailblazing the way and answering questions along the way.

Good to hear/see your listening impressions. Your results are exactly what we have designed the suboofer(s) to do. cool.gif
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post #143 of 158
2/13/13 at 9:41pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrodynamic View Post

Good to hear/see your listening impressions. Your results are exactly what we have designed the suboofer(s) to do. cool.gif

Having owned numerous SI products in my truck SQ system, I had high hopes for them. Needless to say they have lived up to my expectations. smile.gif
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post #144 of 158
2/14/13 at 9:31am
Any particular reason you are using such a high HPF, slope or why using it at all?
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post #145 of 158
2/14/13 at 10:36am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Any particular reason you are using such a high HPF, slope or why using it at all?

Well unless I missed it, there is no way to bypass the HPF. Not sure why as I can shut off the LPF. 15 is as low as it goes, so I figured I could attack it like I would a shelf filter and boost the frequencies around 15 hz to offset the roll off.
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post #146 of 158
2/14/13 at 10:46am
I see. I think I remember that with the SMS now. Thought I remember they updated it to support 5-10hz or something but .... maybe not. Well... that bites. If you can maybe change the slope to be as gentle as possible instead of what it is now at the sharpest. I figure with a massive sealed system you'd want all that super deep stuff. wink.gif If there is a 6dB/oct option for the HPF, use that.

But just an FYI for you and for future reference, if you DO desire response down to 5hz or so you will have to remove the SMS from the signal chain. Not saying you must do this right now but if you want even more extension sometime down the road you will have to remove it.
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post #147 of 158
2/14/13 at 10:59am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

I see. I think I remember that with the SMS now. Thought I remember they updated it to support 5-10hz or something but .... maybe not. Well... that bites. If you can maybe change the slope to be as gentle as possible instead of what it is now at the sharpest. I figure with a massive sealed system you'd want all that super deep stuff. wink.gif If there is a 6dB/oct option for the HPF, use that.

But just an FYI for you and for future reference, if you DO desire response down to 5hz or so you will have to remove the SMS from the signal chain. Not saying you must do this right now but if you want even more extension sometime down the road you will have to remove it.

Scott,

The SMS will allow frequencies down to around 5hz, where at that point you run into a limitation of the hardware itself. It kind of has the same limitations as the DSP in the inukes; you just can't eq down below a certain frequency.

Maybe I was going about it the wrong way with the slope I had setup. I was figuring I'd want a wider slope as it would affect the frequencies further down as opposed to a narrower slope which would center on a narrower band. I assumed if setting the slope around 15hz (the lowest point I could attack), it would raise frequencies down into the single digit area, whereas the narrower one would affect less overall???
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post #148 of 158
2/14/13 at 11:02am
You are correct, a gentle slope would affect the frequencies above it by just a bit and this would be very easily corrected using the other filters on SMS. smile.gif

That was good thinking though but with a slope like that it nearly converts your massive sealed system into a 15hz tuned LLT. wink.gif
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post #149 of 158
2/14/13 at 11:06am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

You are correct, a gentle slope would affect the frequencies above it by just a bit and this would be very easily corrected using the other filters on SMS. smile.gif

That was good thinking though but with a slope like that it nearly converts your massive sealed system into a 15hz tuned LLT. wink.gif

Thanks Scott. I learn something new every day. I'll move the slope back to 6db per octave, and re eq it a bit to compensate. smile.gif
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post #150 of 158
2/14/13 at 11:31am
On my SMS I can set the HPF all the way down to 1hz. Are you sure you can't go below 15?
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