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No Plans for New 4K Disc Format - Sony - Page 2

post #31 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by CalgaryJames View Post

After 4K, the studios will likely have nothing more to sell to us. They already have nothing more to sell to us in audio after the advent of the loseless codec in Blu Ray. If they give us good 4K video in physical media, they are giving away their farm. So it's reasonable to think that there'll be no physical media for 4K content. That leaves streaming the only viable option.

But I think we are still not a the cloud everything stage with the current internet infrustructure. So despite what I wrote before, I believe there's gonna be one more go around with the physical media in 4K.
NHK starts test broadcasts sometime after 2016 in 8K, which will be the new broadcast standard after 2022. So yes, the studios and TV manufacturers will have something new to sell us.
4K/UHD will be the standard for the next ten years and probably the standard for smaller displays after 8K has become regular broadcast standard, but 8K will be the future broadcast standard.
4K is just an intermediate standard.
post #32 of 95
There will be so much buffering with UHD media with today's infrastructure and for decades to come, that people will say "screw that!" And when they have to pay for every single view. We had this fight with DIVX.

How are they going to be able to deliver UHD content with Dolby Atmos or any other object-oriented, high quality soundtrack... over the internet?? Oh, that's right... they can't!!!

Some studios may bitch and moan, but I'd bet they have a disc based contingency plan in the works. They'll have to or they're bigger fools than I thought. Even the BDA has admitted that disc based media may be the only option for premium UHD content due to the current internet structure.
post #33 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

NHK starts test broadcasts sometime after 2016 in 8K, which will be the new broadcast standard after 2022. So yes, the studios and TV manufacturers will have something new to sell us.
4K/UHD will be the standard for the next ten years and probably the standard for smaller displays after 8K has become regular broadcast standard, but 8K will be the future broadcast standard.
4K is just an intermediate standard.

In Japan, maybe. Here? That's laughable. Might as well add another 15 years to that prediction.
post #34 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

In Japan, maybe. Here? That's laughable. Might as well add another 15 years to that prediction.
I agree that one shouldn't be too optimistic when it comes to these timelines, but it is mostly some technological hurdles that keep them back.
NHK (with BBC and EBU) have done more 8K broadcasts in Europe than anywhere else in the world already.
Eutelsat started regular 4K broadcasts January 8.
There is a consortium of broadcasters that is working on a new global terrestrial broadcast standard. (No more transcoding of material between NTSC and PAL):
ITU have set two new global standards, UHDTV-1(4K) and UHDTV-2(8K).
So things are moving along.

The biggest argument for 8K is that if all broadcasters shall eventually "Up" the quality, then it will be more economical to go straight to 8K and not via 4K.
post #35 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toknowshita View Post

They don't want a physical format because they lose control of the value they place on their content. The studios thought people would be willing to pay $30 for HD content, but six years in we see catalog BD titles routinely selling for well under $10. The used disc market will also go away so your only source for content will be a provider that gives a cut to the stuio system. Also if you decide you no longer want something there is no way of recouping any of the money you put into your library.

To all those people claiming BD was full of anti-use DRM you haven't seen anything yet. Here comes the old Circuit City DIVX model minus the disc.... the providers want to get paid everytime you press play.

I couldn't have said it better. Why doesn't Samsung step up with a new disc format? Something backwards compatible from BR?
post #36 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floydster View Post

Why doesn't Samsung step up with a new disc format? Something backwards compatible from BR?
Why Samsung??? confused.gif
Toshiba could do a 4K disc format in no time at all if Sony wont make a 4K BD format. They have the player designs, just need to swap some processors, and they have 51GB discs and the replication plant are churning out DVDs daily, and those plant only needs some extra parts, which they probably still have stored somewhere from last time, to churn out UHD-DVD. cool.gif
post #37 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lepus View Post

They need to change the color of 4K disc sleeves to some other color then blue. Maybe a silver or gold color.

Just like 3D blu-ray editions are backwards compatible with 2D players, 4K disc editions could be made to be backwards compatible (whether separate discs inside or some sort of hybrid disc concept)
post #38 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

Why Samsung??? confused.gif
Toshiba could do a 4K disc format in no time at all if Sony wont make a 4K BD format. They have the player designs, just need to swap some processors, and they have 51GB discs and the replication plant are churning out DVDs daily, and those plant only needs some extra parts, which they probably still have stored somewhere from last time, to churn out UHD-DVD. cool.gif

No one company should step forward with a new format of anything.

Any disc-based 4K solution should have industry support.

Are memories so short at AVS? wink.gif
post #39 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

Why Samsung??? confused.gif
Toshiba could do a 4K disc format in no time at all if Sony wont make a 4K BD format. They have the player designs, just need to swap some processors, and they have 51GB discs and the replication plant are churning out DVDs daily, and those plant only needs some extra parts, which they probably still have stored somewhere from last time, to churn out UHD-DVD. cool.gif

They just came to mind because of their 4K flat screen.
post #40 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet View Post

No one company should step forward with a new format of anything.

Any disc-based 4K solution should have industry support.

Are memories so short at AVS? wink.gif

Considering the totally unready roll out that Sony did, I would hope it would be a bigger alliance than they could control.
post #41 of 95
They already have the BDA with all major studios and manufacturers on board and no need for another stupid, costly format war. Why not go to higher capacity BDXL type discs, use H.265 if it's as good as they say it is, and also increase the average bitrate to accommodate 10 bit 4:2:2 video (RED's UHD player already does this), and object-oriented lossless audio like Dolby Atmos?

In order for UHD to fly, it has to offer much more than just resolution... it has to be jaw-dropping in all aspects. Anything less and there won't be a demand.

The hardware manufacturers would love to have the next tech. toy to sell people on a shiny, new surround processor and something like Dolby Atmos could be the ticket.

Speaker manufacturers would love to be able to sell more speakers.

Without a reliable, fool-proof medium to deliver that content, the industry, as a whole, could be hurt badly (even more than they already are). The internet just isn't up to speed, so to speak, at this time.

Why don't they see this? Why haven't they learned from the recent past??
Edited by Dan Hitchman - 1/14/13 at 2:12pm
post #42 of 95
Skipping media is going to bite them in the #%$&.

People just aren't going to buy expensive UHD/4K displays if they can't buy media that can show it off.

Streaming content is NEVER sharp and pristine. It is just to easy to crank up the compression. The quality audio is also ripped out. That means the enthusiasts are going to literally skip it. They will spot the rip-off and sit on their wallet. Combine the increased dependence on mobile (metered) data and the likelihood of home connections acquiring meters too - and there is a good chance of another 3D-style market failure.
post #43 of 95
Skipping media is going to bite them in the #%$&.

People just aren't going to buy expensive UHD/4K displays if they can't buy media that can show it off.

Streaming content is NEVER sharp and pristine. It is just too easy to crank up the compression. The quality audio is also ripped out. That means the enthusiasts are going to literally skip it. They will spot the rip-off and sit on their wallet. Combine the increased dependence on mobile (metered) data and the likelihood of home connections acquiring meters too - and there is a good chance of another 3D-style market failure.
post #44 of 95
I only use Netflix streaming for TV shows I watch. I pay extra to get the Blu-ray discs delivered, and just use the streaming in between disc deliveries.
post #45 of 95
Let me see if I got this right....

Most (average) people/households still don't appreciate the difference between DVD and Blu ray in terms of quality, with the majority of homes having DVD players (with some that may upconvert content), not Blu ray players hooked up to their HDTV...

Most streaming services don't have 1080p content streaming to their customers...

CEM's are trying their best to entice consumers to part with their cash to upgrade to "the latest/greatest" product they offer, and the competition between them can literally mean the difference of a company remaining viable or going broke...

4K/UHD has the potential to improve the 3D experience, which has been labeled both a "Fad" and now a "Failure" by many...

4K/UHD content will not be noticeably "improved" on a typical HDTV until you get to screen sizes in excess of 60 inches or the use of PJ's...

China has a CEM making moves that may establish it as a "major" player in the flat panel market around the world as they ramp up 4K panel production...

Astronomical prices for these sets are predicted to fall to levels we see for the current "high end" products relatively quickly...

A "typical" Blu ray hold 50Gb, and 4 times the info for 4K works out to 200Gb...

There really is no content that will be available (disc/streaming/download) in the near future...


I really don't have a problem with 4K developement and implimentation, since it will be some time before I can afford the upgrade (AVR/flat panel - PJ/upconverting Blu ray player). I don't have a problem with the CEM's pursuing 4K, since it will (hopefully) advance better PQ for all types of flat panel HDTVs sold in the future. I do expect many will have a problem if they wish to "own" the content, like we are able to now. (Those who rip their movie collection to a server/NAS will also be confronted with storage space limitations 4 times quicker.)

I seriously doubt Blu ray discs will become obsolete (like cassette decks/8 track/reel to reel tape decks/ Beta & VHS player-recorders) anytime soon, especially since Blu ray quality will be "the standard" by which most consumers will eventually come around to adopting in their home. I think 4K will be just like 3D... an option for the consumer. How well it does commercially won't be seen for some time, but I suspect it will be more of a "niche" than 3D, PJ's or humongus flat panel sets for quite some time.
post #46 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevon27 View Post

Why not just say NO to 4k. Don't buy any 4k TV even if the Vizio's look good and are cheap. If the industry want's to go to the next step in TV technology, 3D and 4k should have been bundled together. Give 1080p/blu-ray some time to age. In about 2016 they can release a new super high disc format, 4k displays with true DCI specs (4096 x 2400, 12bit color) and 3D.
The industry seems to be full of idiots. Throwing technology at people at a rapid pace trying to increase sales is a bad idea. TV's are not like phones. People tend to hold on to there TV purchases a few years before they decide to upgrade to something 'better'.


Well said kevon27, I couldnt have said it better.


smile.gif
post #47 of 95
[quote name="Toknowshita" url="/t/1450935/no-plans-for-new-4k-disc-format-sony#post_22810181"--SNIP--. the providers want to get paid everytime you press play.[/quote]


This! A google times. The sutdios are determined to cook that egg & this may, finally, be the means to do it.
post #48 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet View Post

No one company should step forward with a new format of anything.

Any disc-based 4K solution should have industry support.

Are memories so short at AVS? wink.gif

Too true DaViD!

DVD was pretty much an industry standard when it was released unless you count that short-lived much hated Circuit City DIVX that in reality only lasted on the market for about a year. BTW, where's CC now? Dead and gone.

I don't mind an online rental or unlimited view option as long as it is not the only option. That's why consumers hated DIVX with a passion. They talked like DVD was obsolete and the only real option was their system. IOW, they wanted to be the only player in the market. Look where it got them.

The fact is that most consumers are only paying for the lower tiered ISP services meaning that the average connection speed for consumers is still well under 10Mbps. Also let's not forget that there is a large potential consumer base that live in rural areas that don't have access to economical ISPs. It seems like a lot of these people that want to throw physical media under the bus are those that live in areas with a high percentage of 'tech-savvy' workers. In those areas there is much more competition in the ISP market so they can get faster speed for less money, but the reality for the vast majority of consumers is there is usually only one player in town. IOW, no competition and you have to pay what the service provider dictates.

I live in a suburb of the TC, MN. I have Comcast Blast! internet service because it is part of the package, but that package is $180/month with the taxes. The only other provider is CenturyLink, but all I can get from them is 768kbps. So essentially they aren't competing with Comcast's internet service in my suburb. I have relatives that live in Madison, WI where AT&T U-verse is competing with Charter and the rates they are quoted are much more competitive.

Again we need a disc or someother physical media if they truly want 4K to succeed, but I feel the content providers are committed to doing away with the physical media market so the control falls to them.
post #49 of 95
This is 2013, we were supposed to have at least 100GB blu-ray disc now, with 200GB also on the horizon....
What ever happened??
post #50 of 95
I'm in a city of about a million people and the absolute best I can get is 6mb/s. There is just absolutely no way I can do 4k downloads any time in the next several years.
And until I can get 4k movies, there is absolutely no reason for me to care about a 4k tv.
Honestly, the fact that they aren't even talking about a Bluray 2.0 spec at CES is disturbing to me. They pushed out the Bluray 3d spec fast enough, why is a 4k disc update not getting pushed just as hard.
Does anyone have an idea yet how many GB it will take for a 4k 2 1/2 hour movie (pretty standard run time for blockbusters now) using h265?

Given that most people I know barely care about bluray, I don't see how they think they are going to push 4k to the mainstream consumer. Heck, I bought all my family bluray players to "force" them into better quality and I still catch them buying dvd's and most refuse to upgrade to HD cable/sat, content to watch stretched SD.
I think we and the industry all need to accept that for the next decade 4k will be for enthusiasts only, and they need to cater to that crowd. And that crowd typically wants to own the film. (I would also prefer 2.35 sets/pj's. Lets take this opportunity to move away from 16:9)
Even if they do come up with a 4k disc standard, I'm gunna go ahead and say it will be the next laserdisc or D-VHS, it will only be for the enthusiast home theater crowd, and likely expensive. By the time 4k becomes mainstream... in ten years... internet speeds may have finally caught up to the task of 4k downloads.

btw, if we are making a 4k disc spec, here's my wishlist:
real 4k, not UHD. I want full resolution and NO hardcoded black bars. Either allow several resolutions or one resolution with anamorphic. I still think hardcoded black bars and no anamorphic was blurays biggest mistake (I'm sure the CIH guys would agree).
Multiple higher frame rates, 24, 48, 60, 120 (If you have to have 3d, and I'm sure they will, then allow for up to 60fps per eye)
higher color depth.
mandatory lossless audio
post #51 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazarus Dark View Post


btw, if we are making a 4k disc spec, here's my wishlist:
real 4k, not UHD. I want full resolution and NO hardcoded black bars. Either allow several resolutions or one resolution with anamorphic. I still think hardcoded black bars and no anamorphic was blurays biggest mistake (I'm sure the CIH guys would agree).
Multiple higher frame rates, 24, 48, 60, 120 (If you have to have 3d, and I'm sure they will, then allow for up to 60fps per eye)
higher color depth.
mandatory lossless audio

Brilliant idea!

Make the 4k video on the disc aspect ratio "agnostic"... the best resolution for each theatrical and TV aspect ratio possible, making it 4k CIH projection and 4k CIH flat-panel friendly.

Native content frame rate without the need for conversion in full progressive scan... 24, 25 (PAL), 30, 48, 50 (PAL), and 60 frames-per-second. The TV's also do no conversion, except for doubling, tripling, etc. of native rates to get rid of flicker.

[If Downton Abby, for instance, is shot at 25 fps, then I can see it in any region at that frame rate with no need for speed up or slow down or frame interpolation of the master and in full progressive scan.]

At least 10 bit, 4:2:2 with a wider color gamut.

Pro-grade Dolby Atmos or industry-standard open-source object-oriented lossless, 24 bit surround

For standard soundtracks: DTS-MA and Dolby TrueHD lossless specs. as on Blu-ray (lossless audio --- mandatory)

No lossy audio, except for subtracks like audio commentary

Built-in Resume Play player memory --- mandatory

Dump BD-Java for a leaner/meaner/faster software menu system

No forced trailers (they just piss us off)
Edited by Dan Hitchman - 1/18/13 at 3:49pm
post #52 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

This is 2013, we were supposed to have at least 100GB blu-ray disc now, with 200GB also on the horizon....
What ever happened??

2010 100, 128 GB blu ray's were released BDXL. Also this year HEVC will become a official standard
post #53 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

Brilliant idea!

Make the 4k video on the disc aspect ratio "agnostic"... the best resolution for each theatrical and TV aspect ratio possible, making it 4k CIH projection and 4k CIH flat-panel friendly.

Native content frame rate without the need for conversion in full progressive scan... 24, 25 (PAL), 30, 48, 50 (PAL), and 60 frames-per-second. The TV's also do no conversion, except for doubling, tripling, etc. of native rates to get rid of flicker.

[If Downton Abby, for instance, is shot at 25 fps, then I can see it in any region at that frame rate with no need for speed up or slow down or frame interpolation of the master and in full progressive scan.]

At least 10 bit, 4:2:2 with a wider color gamut.

Pro-grade Dolby Atmos or industry-standard open-source object-oriented lossless, 24 bit surround

For standard soundtracks: DTS-MA and Dolby TrueHD lossless specs. as on Blu-ray (lossless audio --- mandatory)

No lossy audio, except for subtracks like audio commentary

Built-in Resume Play player memory --- mandatory

Dump BD-Java for a leaner/meaner/faster software menu system

No forced trailers (they just piss us off)

+ 100

Especially on the dump JAVA. I'm sure everyone is familiar with the holes that Sun is so reluctant to address concerning PCs. Don't even get me started on forced trailers (UPOs). And while your at it get rid of those threatening "Don't steal what you are about to see" UPOs. If they want those, they can print them on the damn case the disc comes in.

Floyd
post #54 of 95
The selling point to 4k TVs isn't going to come from the movie crowd, it's going to come from the photographers. And not just the die hard SLR crowd. Even the mobile phones are pushing 8mp now, consumer point and shoots at in the teens, and SLRs are typically now 18-36MP. And yet we're mostly displaying them on 2mp HDTVs.

The first significant 1080i display device I got aside from the HDTV STB was the Roku HD1000 which allowed me to display my photos at full TV res, rather than DVD resolution. It's a fairly simple product to design, or could be built into the set itself, seeing how newer TVs tend to have USB capability around displaying jpegs and playing some movie formats. Give people the ability to display their own stuff at 8mp (or even the latest Hero3 footage at 4k/15fps) and you'll get some adoption as soon as prices arc below 5k down towards 2k.
post #55 of 95
Get real, fellas!! This is an enthiusiast forum. You guys are waaayyyy out of touch with most of America. #1, most folks do not have high-enough download speeds to even consider downloading or streaming 4k content. And most Americans bought a large screen TV in the past 5 years which they WILL NOT replace for at least another 5 years if not longer. And those TVs are 1080P. Finally, even though they have 1080P TVs, most of them still watch and own a lot of DVDs. And. frankly, most Americans are damn well satisfied with standard DVDs and maybe the occasional Bluray. 4K is not going anywhere for at least 5-10 years, too many folks have a big DVD library and are loathe to invest in "this new-fangled 4K stuff". Get used to it...
post #56 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

NHK starts test broadcasts sometime after 2016 in 8K, which will be the new broadcast standard after 2022. So yes, the studios and TV manufacturers will have something new to sell us.
4K/UHD will be the standard for the next ten years and probably the standard for smaller displays after 8K has become regular broadcast standard, but 8K will be the future broadcast standard.
4K is just an intermediate standard.

What does NHK stand for?

Floyd
post #57 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floydster View Post

What does NHK stand for?

Floyd

This link explains NHK: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=define%3ANHK
post #58 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

I bet Blu-ray has costed Sony a bundle or two. Money they probably will never recuperate or make a profit.

In hindsight, they should really have left HD discs to Toshiba and had one less financial headache to deal with.
Latest surveys I have seen is that people still like to own their content on a physical disc. That's why even CDs are still going strong and the good old LP market is growing.

This launch of Blu-rays with 4K logo "which will look better than regular Blu-rays up-converted on 4K displays" is just some desperate marketing rubbish.

Sony claims they will launch a network distribution system for 4K in the summer.

Red has already the Redray 4K player and the Odemax download network distribution system ready for launch.

If Sony is smart they should just sign up for that and solve their problem of delivering 4K to their display devices. One less system for them to build and manage.

Time for Sony to learn that they should not try to push everybody into their own manufactured system. They have failed every time they have tried. Only exception has been the CD which was co-developed with Phillips.

Odemax is obviously not ready for launch, Red is still making changes to the Redray player, and the software need to convert 4K content to something the redray will play is still under development. i think the player will come very soon, odemax will be a name only for quite some time i think until producers can see a reaon to supply the network with content. there is no commercial market for it at this point though there might be a niche consumer HT market of those with 4K displays one the player actually get's delivered.
post #59 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

NHK starts test broadcasts sometime after 2016 in 8K, which will be the new broadcast standard after 2022. So yes, the studios and TV manufacturers will have something new to sell us.
4K/UHD will be the standard for the next ten years and probably the standard for smaller displays after 8K has become regular broadcast standard, but 8K will be the future broadcast standard.
4K is just an intermediate standard.

Every display technology and every display resolution is an umdfinable intermediate. undefinable because there is no final. everything is short term in the great scheme of time. 67 years for me. No TV. TV Color TV, HD Def TV, Digital reproction technologies, $K. 67 years of transitory points, not intermediate points.
post #60 of 95
I've heard this before, circa 2000....
Fixed it for you...
Quote:
Originally Posted by rlwainwright View Post

Get real, fellas!! This is an enthiusiast forum. You guys are waaayyyy out of touch with most of America. #1, most folks do not have high-enough download speeds to even consider downloading or streaming HD content. And most Americans bought a large screen TV in the past 5 years which they WILL NOT replace for at least another 5 years if not longer. And those TVs are decent quality CRTs. Finally, even though they have SDTVs, most of them still watch and own a lot of VHSs. And. frankly, most Americans are damn well satisfied with VHS and maybe the occasional DVD. HD is not going anywhere for at least 5-10 years, too many folks have a big VHS library and are loathe to invest in "this new-fangled HD stuff". Get used to it...
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