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No Plans for New 4K Disc Format - Sony - Page 3

post #61 of 95
Thats pretty much spot on. CRT's have all basically been replaced now and the spike in sales [of flat panels] is over. 3D was to try and get sales going again and failed. 4K will create a small blip, but the majority will wait until their existing panels fail.

As to 4K content distribution, as with a previous posted comment where most of America don't have the speed required to download a 4K movie, Australia is much the same. Hell, I only get 36Gb/month so for me to download a 50Gb movie is 2 months worth of data without doing anything else on the net.

Even if we could convince everyone that DVD's are redundant (like VHS tapes are now), most are not tech savvy enough to understand that the movie you can get from the internet is the same as the one you can get on the disc.

While digital music distribution has been made easy with the likes of iTunes and Amazon, this has gone a long way to teach the masses on digital content delivery so the transition should be easier. Whatever the solution, its is going to have to not require a computer.

And then there are those that want the physical media (as stated already).

Rental outlets also need to be considered. While Netflix has crushed most of them in the US, here in Aus I can get a new BR movie to rent for $2. There is no digital distribution option available to us Aussies (not that I am aware of but I do not search them out doe to my limitations of data).

So, in my humble opinion, 4K will be dead before it starts unless a distribution media is created for it.

Mick
post #62 of 95
If they want a 4K disc format to take off, all they have to do is give it a name no one can resist.....

...like "4-Play".... wink.gif

In all seriousness, what will drive 4K are 4 things:

1) Even smarter TVs with the ability to do real web surfing with all that resolution and the ability to easily view photos at higher resolutions than they can now. These days, TVs are less about TV than all the other things they can do.

2) Gaming. Once consoles can take advantage of all that extra resolution, there's gonna be some seriously sick games coming out.

3) A compact memory card that is fast enough and has enough capacity to work alone to allow next generation DSLRs to not only record 4K video, but 3D using the full sensor resolution to give each eye 4K. Right now, we waste perfectly good 18MP sensors on 1080p when shooting video. Next generation DSLRs will likely be approaching 25 or even 30MP. Even if you only use 1/3 of the sensor in order to shoot 16x9 on a 3:2 ratio sensor, you're still left with more than enough real estate.

4) A recordable version of a high capacity disc in the 120-200GB range not just for those 4K videos, but to provide local backup of computer files. While the cloud is appealing to many to use for everything, we're seeing more examples of the dangers of not having a local copy to go along with it. One bad business decision or an FBI raid can make your data disappear - like a cloud.
post #63 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post

4) A recordable version of a high capacity disc in the 120-200GB range not just for those 4K videos, but to provide local backup of computer files. While the cloud is appealing to many to use for everything, we're seeing more examples of the dangers of not having a local copy to go along with it. One bad business decision or an FBI raid can make your data disappear - like a cloud.

Recordable 100-128GB Blu ray disc's do exist now for consumers called BDXL, no movies have been released on the BDXL format.
post #64 of 95
I really hope that streaming does not become the format we will use to view 4K/UHD material.

100-200GB of 4K/UHD data streamed is going to be expensive for the consumer. Improvements to the internet to be able to have this capability will cost the providers a bundle, and they are in the business to make money. Those costs will be paid for by some, if not all internet users.

Consumers have definitely become very familiar with audio downloads, thanks to i-tunes & Amazon. Video downloads are more common now thanks to the iPad, Nook, Kindle Fire, and multiple other tablets. But this has come at a "cost" too. How many households still don't have/appreciate Blu ray? Don't view/appreciate true 1080p? Don't hear/appreciate the difference between MP3 and lossless audio?

We live in a "fast food" world of instant gratification it seems. Providers will have no qualms to hype & advertise their 4K/UHD services that must be compressed to be delivered, with the loss of the resolution that is the primary reason for such content... and unsophisticated consumers will be lining up (and paying thru the nose) for those services, feeling pretty good about themselves for their technological capabilities!
post #65 of 95
Just think... somebody's $10,000 UHD flat screen and $25,000 audio system will only have hyper compressed video and low-end audio content playing through them because the studios want to lock down their product... like DIVX of old.

And it'll take you all night to download that kind of "quality" to an approved, proprietary storage device and player.

Oh boy, can't wait!!! UHD is gonna sell like hotcakes. wink.gif
post #66 of 95
post #67 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by znelbok View Post

Thats pretty much spot on. CRT's have all basically been replaced now and the spike in sales [of flat panels] is over. 3D was to try and get sales going again and failed. 4K will create a small blip, but the majority will wait until their existing panels fail.

As to 4K content distribution, as with a previous posted comment where most of America don't have the speed required to download a 4K movie, Australia is much the same. Hell, I only get 36Gb/month so for me to download a 50Gb movie is 2 months worth of data without doing anything else on the net.

Even if we could convince everyone that DVD's are redundant (like VHS tapes are now), most are not tech savvy enough to understand that the movie you can get from the internet is the same as the one you can get on the disc.

While digital music distribution has been made easy with the likes of iTunes and Amazon, this has gone a long way to teach the masses on digital content delivery so the transition should be easier. Whatever the solution, its is going to have to not require a computer.

And then there are those that want the physical media (as stated already).

Rental outlets also need to be considered. While Netflix has crushed most of them in the US, here in Aus I can get a new BR movie to rent for $2. There is no digital distribution option available to us Aussies (not that I am aware of but I do not search them out doe to my limitations of data).

So, in my humble opinion, 4K will be dead before it starts unless a distribution media is created for it.

Mick

I pretty much agree with everything you say. If these gold digging IPs are carping over 1080p, imagine how they would react to 4000K. There is no physical media capable of 4000K is there?

Floyd
post #68 of 95
Good ole' schizoid Sony.
post #69 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Good ole' schizoid Sony.

Arghhhh! Don't get me started!
post #70 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floydster View Post

I pretty much agree with everything you say. If these gold digging IPs are carping over 1080p, imagine how they would react to 4000K. There is no physical media capable of 4000K is there?

Floyd

Sure there is. It's whether or not the BDA will switch to them or not. You won't get high quality 4k with pro-grade color gamut and the latest object oriented lossless formats on a BD50... that's for sure!
post #71 of 95
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2084665/New-Blu-Ray-discs-offering-times-hi-def-2013.html



It looks like a new player for 4K physical media is at least a possibility. This might be a lot easier than fixing the lack of bandwidth problem many will have trying to download/stream 4K movies. Just a thought.
post #72 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2084665/New-Blu-Ray-discs-offering-times-hi-def-2013.html



It looks like a new player for 4K physical media is at least a possibility. This might be a lot easier than fixing the lack of bandwidth problem many will have trying to download/stream 4K movies. Just a thought.

This is an old report. The BDA has not finalized the UHD Blu-ray specs. (also don't know what storage discs will be available) and we don't know what kind of pressure some of the key members are exerting on the body to peddle slowly as to kill off the potential of a disc based 4k medium. Studios love Pay Per View rentals more than life itself. They've tried this sh-t before.

However, it has been mentioned time and time again that the internet infrastructure and the greedy ISP's are not ready for 4k files. They can't even do 1080p correctly.
post #73 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

This is an old report. The BDA has not finalized the UHD Blu-ray specs. (also don't know what storage discs will be available) and we don't know what kind of pressure some of the key members are exerting on the body to peddle slowly as to kill off the potential of a disc based 4k medium. Studios love Pay Per View rentals more than life itself. They've tried this sh-t before.

However, it has been mentioned time and time again that the internet infrastructure and the greedy ISP's are not ready for 4k files. They can't even do 1080p correctly.



I posted this because some seem to be under illusion that Sony and others already wrote off physical media when in fact it's still on the table. Like you said ISP's are not ready for 4K files yet. I know it will kill them to release a new physical format but I don't see what other choice they have when most of Internet movie services can barely get 1080p right.
post #74 of 95
I'm thinking of all the people I know who didn't buy a DVD player until they got to the $29-39 price point. Why? Because they didn't record. People are really funny about money and the things they spend it on. Most are so outraged over their cable bills they will never buy a blu ray player, much less a 4k TV or a 4k player.
But many will go for an overly color saturated and deep black level flatscreen and be happy watching DVDs and streaming content for e next ten years.
post #75 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by b4z View Post

I'm thinking of all the people I know who didn't buy a DVD player until they got to the $29-39 price point. Why? Because they didn't record. People are really funny about money and the things they spend it on. Most are so outraged over their cable bills they will never buy a blu ray player, much less a 4k TV or a 4k player.
But many will go for an overly color saturated and deep black level flatscreen and be happy watching DVDs and streaming content for e next ten years.
Very well said.
post #76 of 95
The ps4 will support 4k bluray movies and content from playstation store being the only console from the leader in 4k. I saw a 4ktv ad during the nba game and sometime soon 4k sports will become commonplace. 4k cameras have been used in sporting events to show detailed slow motion effects and it shows re ally well
post #77 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kascnef82 View Post

The ps4 will support 4k bluray movies and content from playstation store being the only console from the leader in 4k. I saw a 4ktv ad during the nba game and sometime soon 4k sports will become commonplace. 4k cameras have been used in sporting events to show detailed slow motion effects and it shows re ally well



Hi, the ps4 will support 4K but there is no standard for 4K blu ray media yet. If there is we'll be some of the first to know as I'm sure there's a couple of AVS news breakers that would love to break that story biggrin.gif
post #78 of 95
Thread Starter 
Yup, and trust me, we are hawks when it comes to 4K Blu-ray discs. I personally check a few times a week. I can't wait to see what the future will hold.

In the meantime, you can check this one out

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1471040/bda-to-determine-if-4k-blu-ray-is-feasible
post #79 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by VinnyS View Post

Yup, and trust me, we are hawks when it comes to 4K Blu-ray discs. I personally check a few times a week. I can't wait to see what the future will hold.

In the meantime, you can check this one out

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1471040/bda-to-determine-if-4k-blu-ray-is-feasible



I'm getting the itch to upgrade my Oppo 93 to the newer model, but I think I need to hold out till we see if they come up with a standard for 4K blu ray. My pre/pro can upscale to 4K and pass it through, so I might as well wait and get one step closer. But I want a OLED 4k panel biggrin.gif
post #80 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post


I'm getting the itch to upgrade my Oppo 93 to the newer model, but I think I need to hold out till we see if they come up with a standard for 4K blu ray. My pre/pro can upscale to 4K and pass it through, so I might as well wait and get one step closer. But I want a OLED 4k panel biggrin.gif

 

I'm just about to pull the  trigger on the Oppo103 up from my 83 which has developed that drawer problem that if it doesn't have a disc in it , it requires 2 button pushes to open it, which I guess I could program the macro into my remote.  I was hoping next year would bring major movie releases in 4K to a media server or 4K BR, but it doesn't appear that is going to happen for at least 2 more years. I'm trying to convince myself that the faster load times and the ability to improve my Tivo pq with FIOS with the hdmi input can justify the expense until 4K source and PJ's are available. I too want a 4K OLED , but to match my current pj screen size of 120x51, but by the time they can make them that large at a  price less than my house I'll be drooling in a bucket in the nursing home blind and deaf.

post #81 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlanzy View Post

I'm just about to pull the  trigger on the Oppo103 up from my 83 which has developed that drawer problem that if it doesn't have a disc in it , it requires 2 button pushes to open it, which I guess I could program the macro into my remote.  I was hoping next year would bring major movie releases in 4K to a media server or 4K BR, but it doesn't appear that is going to happen for at least 2 more years. I'm trying to convince myself that the faster load times and the ability to improve my Tivo pq with FIOS with the hdmi input can justify the expense until 4K source and PJ's are available. I too want a 4K OLED , but to match my current pj screen size of 120x51, but by the time they can make them that large at a  price less than my house I'll be drooling in a bucket in the nursing home blind and deaf.



Yeah I think for a screen that size your a little ways off. Good luck with your 103, I understand they are a great player smile.gif
I'm also hoping there is a 4K physical media of some type, I know Sony has stated that isn't the direction their headed in but IMO they have to do something. People won't pay for these faster services that will be necessary.
Edited by comfynumb - 6/15/13 at 4:47pm
post #82 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Yeah I think for a screen that size your a little ways off. Good luck with your 103, I understand they are a great player smile.gif
I'm also hoping there is a 4K physical media of some type, I know Sony has stated that isn't the direction their headed in but IMO they have to do something. People won't pay for these faster services that will be necessary.

I thought there was a problem with short life on blue leds on OLED. Have they got that fixed? How large a screen can you get? Also, is it possible to get 4K on a BR disc? I was thinking that 4K would be way more data than a BR could hold.

Floyd
post #83 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floydster View Post

I thought there was a problem with short life on blue leds on OLED. Have they got that fixed? How large a screen can you get? Also, is it possible to get 4K on a BR disc? I was thinking that 4K would be way more data than a BR could hold.

Floyd



I don't have the answers but they've been talking of a quad layer blu ray disc or they already have it, so that would give them the room they need for 4K. As far as the short life of the OLED's I know LG is releasing is releasing their version soon, so we'll see. But I hear it's expensive and I won't be a guinea pig smile.gif
post #84 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floydster View Post

Also, is it possible to get 4K on a BR disc? I was thinking that 4K would be way more data than a BR could hold.

Floyd

They will need higher capacity discs (probably greater than the 128 GB BDXL discs). Especially, if they get rid of that crappy 8 bit video and up the ante to 10 bit and a wider color gamut... and object oriented lossless audio as good or better than Dolby Atmos. It's all this or bust in my book. 2160p won't be enough on its own to get consumers interested... the color and density of the image must POP off the screen with no banding and the audio has to take their breath away.
Edited by Dan Hitchman - 6/18/13 at 2:12am
post #85 of 95
I'm still wanting a mercury vapor lamp projector. The bulbs maybe hot and power hungry, but they produce brightness in scenes that no other format can do. For example, a nuke goes off in a picture and
the screen goes bright white. With MV, you almost have to turn your head away.

I hadn't thought of more than dual layers--it just hadn't occurred to me, but that's a great point.

Floyd
post #86 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

They will need higher capacity discs (probably greater than the 128 GB BDXL discs). Especially, if they get rid of that crappy 8 bit video and up the ante to 10 bit and a wider color gamut... and object oriented lossless audio as good or better than Dolby Atmos. It's all this or bust in my book. 2160p won't be enough on its own to get consumers interested... the color and density of the image must POP off the screen with no banding and the audio has to take their breath away.

Yes about the 8 bit video. Seems like they are always stingy with the bits, even in the DACs. I agree with 2160 not being enough. 4000 should be dazzling though. There is a good documentary on Netflix streaming called Side by Side comparing film to digital. There is a company named RED that is already producing digital cameras with a resolution on of 5,600 or something like that. That exceeds projection in theaters. 4000 lines is supposed to be real enough to give people car sickness who are prone to it, so it must be pretty darn real looking. I think that directors will start using a wider color gaumut once it's available.

Floyd
post #87 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by b4z View Post

I'm thinking of all the people I know who didn't buy a DVD player until they got to the $29-39 price point. Why? Because they didn't record. People are really funny about money and the things they spend it on. Most are so outraged over their cable bills they will never buy a blu ray player, much less a 4k TV or a 4k player.
But many will go for an overly color saturated and deep black level flatscreen and be happy watching DVDs and streaming content for e next ten years.
The problem with this theory is that DVD recorders existed and were a flop - and still are.

The big issue with BD adoption is that there are still people running SD into all those flat panel displays that have sold in recent years. They run their analog cable directly into them. They run DVD players into them with the RCA YRW cables - and they'd likely do the same with BD players. Then they stretch it all to fill the screen.

People are funny about spending money on stuff, only to not go the extra few inches to set everything up properly with the right cables and proper aspect ratios. There are plenty of people that will spend $100 a month on cable or satellite service, yet not spend the little extra to get HD service with it.

This isn't a failure of the format or the capabilities of it. It's a failure of people to give a damn.

It's like that scene in National Lampoon's "Vacation" where the cousin is mixing the Kool-aid with her hand. She's got the water, the mix and even a proper pitcher, but she ignores any thought of using a spoon to mix it. When Clark asks her if she needs any help - maybe a spoon or something - she just ignores him.

That's what BD and 4K is up against - people doing just enough to have it be "good enough" for them.
post #88 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post

The problem with this theory is that DVD recorders existed and were a flop - and still are.

The big issue with BD adoption is that there are still people running SD into all those flat panel displays that have sold in recent years. They run their analog cable directly into them. They run DVD players into them with the RCA YRW cables - and they'd likely do the same with BD players. Then they stretch it all to fill the screen.

People are funny about spending money on stuff, only to not go the extra few inches to set everything up properly with the right cables and proper aspect ratios. There are plenty of people that will spend $100 a month on cable or satellite service, yet not spend the little extra to get HD service with it.

This isn't a failure of the format or the capabilities of it. It's a failure of people to give a damn.

It's like that scene in National Lampoon's "Vacation" where the cousin is mixing the Kool-aid with her hand. She's got the water, the mix and even a proper pitcher, but she ignores any thought of using a spoon to mix it. When Clark asks her if she needs any help - maybe a spoon or something - she just ignores him.

That's what BD and 4K is up against - people doing just enough to have it be "good enough" for them.



I have to agree and our passion (people on AVS and other sites) for audio/video is not the norm. Most just don't care that much about quality.
post #89 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floydster View Post

Yes about the 8 bit video. Seems like they are always stingy with the bits, even in the DACs. I agree with 2160 not being enough. 4000 should be dazzling though. There is a good documentary on Netflix streaming called Side by Side comparing film to digital. There is a company named RED that is already producing digital cameras with a resolution on of 5,600 or something like that. That exceeds projection in theaters. 4000 lines is supposed to be real enough to give people car sickness who are prone to it, so it must be pretty darn real looking. I think that directors will start using a wider color gaumut once it's available.

Floyd

You seem to be mixing up vertical vs. horizontal resolution. The current standards for both consumer Ultra-HD and for commercial digital cinema use 2160 vertical pixels. The horizontal pixel count is 3820 for the consumer Ultra-HD standard with 1.78:1 image ratio (same at today's HDTV 16 x 9 aspect ratio standard) while the Digital Cinema industry (i.e., your local theater with a '4K' digital projector) uses a slightly wider image aspect ratio of just under 1.90:1 which require a few more horizontal pixels (i.e., 4096 total horz. pixel count) to fill out the wider image. The term "lines of resolution" is really from the analog days and is more complex measure because in includes anything that could degrade what is technically possible based on the above pixel counts. More specifically when applying this term to a digital projector it includes the effects of the projector's optics, convergence accuracy of the red, blue an green sub-pixels and the image processing (encoding/encoding, scaling, etc.). There is also luminance resolution vs. chroma resolution. Finally many people seem to get confused in that the vertical lines of resolution is directly dependent to the horizontal pixel count while the horizontal lines of resolution is directly dependent on the vertical pixel count (more background on this the HERE). By the way the bit depth has increased to 10-bit and 12-bit as per the Ultra-HD standard (ITU-T Rec. BT-2020) and the color space has also been substantially expanded by that same standard.

Red Digital Cinema has recently introduced a commercial 6K digital camera, but after the video is captured by the camera it will normally be downscale to 4K or even 2K for editing into the final movie and distribution to the movie theaters. A consumer 4K UHD format, either distributed by a future optical disc, by internet download, or by satellite or over-the-air broadcast, has the potential of providing essentially the same resolution that will be seen today at a modern commercial theater equipped with a 4K digital cinema projector (Sony, Christie, Barco) with the potential for even better performance in same areas (e.g., better image contrast).

Looking a few years into the future there are already the some of the standards coming forward for both consumer video and commercial digital cinema for 8K video. However other than a few technology demos and trials (such as those be done in Japan by NHK), the first really full-time 8K programming sources and production 8K displays are probably still 7 or more years away.



.
Edited by Ron Jones - 6/18/13 at 8:08pm
post #90 of 95
So thus far......any insider info as to if there will be a delivery method for 4K other than download.....disk..usb?
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