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Behringer Inuke LF performance with low impedance load - Page 2

post #31 of 69
1/13/13 at 12:07pm
This makes me think the EP4000 would be a better choice than an iNuke 3000. The EP4000 is bigger and heavier for sure, and I believe has better performance at low frequencies. Of course, you'd need EQ for room correction, hence a mini-DSP or Behringer Feedback Destroyer.
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post #32 of 69
1/13/13 at 12:45pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by djkest View Post

This makes me think the EP4000 would be a better choice than an iNuke 3000. The EP4000 is bigger and heavier for sure, and I believe has better performance at low frequencies. Of course, you'd need EQ for room correction, hence a mini-DSP or Behringer Feedback Destroyer.
BFD is not a fair match for this DSP . You'd have to go with minidsp or DCX2496 for comparable feature set. If i had more flexible budget I would buy a 2x4 balanced minidsp and a pair EP4000 or similar. But for the money InukeDSP amps are impossible to beat. And it seems with 4 Ohm or higher load it can do all that can be asked from a good HT subwoofer amplifier.
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post #33 of 69
1/13/13 at 1:17pm
Is there much of a difference between running 2 ohm stereo vs. 4 ohm bridged? Isn't it effectively the same thing for the amp?

I see a lot of amps rated for 2 ohm stereo operation, but wonder just how risky that would be.
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post #34 of 69
1/13/13 at 2:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by djkest View Post

This makes me think the EP4000 would be a better choice than an iNuke 3000. The EP4000 is bigger and heavier for sure, and I believe has better performance at low frequencies. Of course, you'd need EQ for room correction, hence a mini-DSP or Behringer Feedback Destroyer.

The EP makes "some" noise at idle, even with fan mod, as it is using a fair amount of power which is converted to heat...even at idle. The class D amps put out virtually zero heat at idle and use minimal power in comparison. For some folks this doesn't matter or isn't a priority, though.

Pro audio (for which both were designed) has a high duty cycle...in comparison to typical low frequency HT use where there is an occasional event with LF content...the rest of the time is idle or at least low power.
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post #35 of 69
1/13/13 at 3:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

BFD is not a fair match for this DSP . You'd have to go with minidsp or DCX2496 for comparable feature set. If i had more flexible budget I would buy a 2x4 balanced minidsp and a pair EP4000 or similar. But for the money InukeDSP amps are impossible to beat. And it seems with 4 Ohm or higher load it can do all that can be asked from a good HT subwoofer amplifier.
Are you saying that the inukeDSP eq is better than the BFD?
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post #36 of 69
1/13/13 at 3:26pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Okv View Post

Yes, this will limit the output at very low frequencies, and thus hopefully prevent over-excursion.

it looks like drivers may unload while the output at 20Hz is still way short of the max level. in the few models i tried for the new SI drivers, it's possible to get them beyond Xmex with as little as 200-300W. the DEQ would have to kick in early to protect the drivers which defeats the point imo.
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post #37 of 69
1/13/13 at 6:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

it looks like drivers may unload while the output at 20Hz is still way short of the max level. in the few models i tried for the new SI drivers, it's possible to get them beyond Xmex with as little as 200-300W. the DEQ would have to kick in early to protect the drivers which defeats the point imo.

In post #18 LTD02 describes a brilliant idea for moving the corner of the hpf lower down, so that you get full level to 20Hz, may be that can be used.
Then the ordinary hpf can be used, might be better because it has the option of steeper slope, the dynamic is only 12dB/oct.
I was about to say you can use the dynamic filter, but, of course, then you would have a level-dependent eq down low, and that may not be desirable.

If you have a model of the sub in some simulator software, this can be simulated, to some extent.
Just add the filters, and observe the excursion.
The problem is that it is difficult to model the exact behavior of the driver, as the Bl is very nonlinear at high excursions and high power, and this has a very significant effect on what excursion you actually will get.
Reduced Bl may actually lead to significantly larger excursion when you operate relatively close to the tuning frequency of the system.
Just try to simulate with a lower Bl, and (typically) you will see lower spl, but higher excursion.

Assuming that we here deal with some kind of ported design - a ported box or some variation of horn.

Far below tuning the only thing that limits excursion is the stiffness of the suspension, and the driving force is the Bl and the current that flows through the voice coil.
Low-fs drivers can reach xmax (or xmech) with say quite less than 100W when unloaded.
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post #38 of 69
1/13/13 at 6:45pm
Well, I completed testing today, and as usual, it leaves me with more questions than answers.

Conditions were not entirely conducive to testing, as it was below freezing outside, and I know this alters the performance characteristics of the driver.

I had some issues with settings in the iNuke software "sticking" too - the highpass wouldn't always switch off.

I fed the CVX in my latest tapped horn all my iNuke could deliver bridged into an 8-ohm load, neither one ever really complained.
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post #39 of 69
1/13/13 at 6:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomagardner View Post

Are you saying that the inukeDSP eq is better than the BFD?

IMO, while not perfect, it is considerably more advanced, and far easier to use. I own both.
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post #40 of 69
1/13/13 at 6:57pm
Really the only thing the BFD is missing is a HPF, other than that least it doesn't have to worry about low line signal voltage to drive the amp like some experience with the mini dsp.

And the notes i've seen on the 2496 are as follows. Maybe can apply the same technique on other devices.

IlKKA who is A Subwoofer Expert and happens to have the SUBWOOFER tests forum over at HTS also works in the industry "Genelec" uses A DCX2496.... Here is what he had to say:
Quote:
I used the Behringer DCX2496, but it actually doesn't have a 15 Hz HP filter. I used its lowest, 20 Hz (12 dB/octave Butterworth), setting instead but used a wide boost (bandpass filter) around 20 Hz, so effectively the filter was around 15 Hz. I couldn't have gone much lower with the DCX2496.IlKKA....
you can't ( as far as i can tell ) set any filter to lower than 20 hz on either DCX or DEQ however what you can do is:

1 - set SSF to 20 hz

2 - apply parametric boost at 20 hz at the same time

3 - apply CUT at around 25 hz or so

by playing with the parameters of these 3 filters you can get 2 and 3 to mostly cancel each other out above 20 hz but their net effect will be significant boost below 20 hz

this boost below 20 hz will interact with 20 hz SSF and the net result will be that the boost will largely get cancelled and SSF will shift down in frequency.

how much lower you would be able to push the SSF frequency would depend on the order of the highpass. you would be able to push a 6db/oct highpass much lower than a 48db/oct highpass.

Well, that's actually quite easy. The DCX does not have ability to set filters below 20Hz. While this may seem to high, it's not really. You can easily extend the actual filter by for example setting high pass filter to 20Hz, 2nd order, Butterworth. Now add a single parameteric band at 20Hz in the EQ section on the unit, set to Q of 1.5 and gain of +4 dB. This will counteract and extend the roll off, giving you an effective roll off on the 13w7 of -3dB around 17Hz and -6db around 14hz, with rapid roll off after this; exactly what you want with this 10 cubic foot cabinet tuned to about 16Hz to prevent excessive excursion under this tuning frequency.
end Quote
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post #41 of 69
1/13/13 at 7:13pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomagardner View Post

Are you saying that the inukeDSP eq is better than the BFD?

correct. BFD does not have crossover and shelving filters ,time delay, power limiters and dynamic EQ.
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post #42 of 69
1/13/13 at 8:09pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Okv View Post

In post #18 LTD02 describes a brilliant idea for moving the corner of the hpf lower down, so that you get full level to 20Hz, may be that can be used.
Then the ordinary hpf can be used, might be better because it has the option of steeper slope, the dynamic is only 12dB/oct.
I was about to say you can use the dynamic filter, but, of course, then you would have a level-dependent eq down low, and that may not be desirable.

If you have a model of the sub in some simulator software, this can be simulated, to some extent.
Just add the filters, and observe the excursion.
The problem is that it is difficult to model the exact behavior of the driver, as the Bl is very nonlinear at high excursions and high power, and this has a very significant effect on what excursion you actually will get.
Reduced Bl may actually lead to significantly larger excursion when you operate relatively close to the tuning frequency of the system.
Just try to simulate with a lower Bl, and (typically) you will see lower spl, but higher excursion.

Assuming that we here deal with some kind of ported design - a ported box or some variation of horn.

Far below tuning the only thing that limits excursion is the stiffness of the suspension, and the driving force is the Bl and the current that flows through the voice coil.
Low-fs drivers can reach xmax (or xmech) with say quite less than 100W when unloaded.

thank you.

The new SI drivers have very compliant suspension. I was warned by many that excursion must be kept under control because the drivers do not bottom out well.

I found a way to emulate HPF along the lines described in the post by autox320 - a combination of PEQ boost and HPF in the 20Hz region can have an effect of a HPF at a lower frequency. This way I can highpass enclosures tuned as low as 15Hz or so which is all i need in my case.
I'd love to use the LTD's approach but I am not sure how to emulate shelf filters in WinISD, the only modeling software I am at least somewhat comfortable with.
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post #43 of 69
1/14/13 at 6:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

thank you.

The new SI drivers have very compliant suspension. I was warned by many that excursion must be kept under control because the drivers do not bottom out well.

Well, if it's sealed, the enclosure itself will work against the driver bottoming out, the effectiveness of which is depending on enclosure Q. If it's ported, it's paramount you have a HPF unless you are tuned to something really low like 11 or 12 Hz.
Edited by djkest - 1/14/13 at 6:37am
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post #44 of 69
1/14/13 at 8:26am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by djkest View Post

Is there much of a difference between running 2 ohm stereo vs. 4 ohm bridged? Isn't it effectively the same thing for the amp?
.
I'd also like to know this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by djkest View Post

Well, if it's sealed, the enclosure itself will work against the driver bottoming out, the effectiveness of which is depending on enclosure Q. If it's ported, it's paramount you have a HPF unless you are tuned to something really low like 11 or 12 Hz.
I am going with ported. the tune is slightly above 15Hz.
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post #45 of 69
1/14/13 at 2:01pm
"Is there much of a difference between running 2 ohm stereo vs. 4 ohm bridged? Isn't it effectively the same thing for the amp?"

generally, that is right. the inuke 6000 is essentially two 3000's bridged, so the 6000 can't be bridged. that is relatively rare though.
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post #46 of 69
1/14/13 at 2:11pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Is there much of a difference between running 2 ohm stereo vs. 4 ohm bridged? Isn't it effectively the same thing for the amp?"

generally, that is right. the inuke 6000 is essentially two 3000's bridged, so the 6000 can't be bridged. that is relatively rare though.

does it follow then that if an amp cannot perform well at low frequencies in 2 ohm stereo mode, it will have the same problems in 4 ohm bridged ?
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post #47 of 69
1/21/13 at 7:15pm
For any of you on the fence about buying one of these amps, I wanted to let you know it appears the prices are taking a jump. Not sure what the rules are here about posting numbers so I won't get specific but will say just within the last week or so, on several popular pro audio sites either they just took a big jump up from the usual MAP pricing, or the MAP itself went up. Still a few deals to be had on Ebay, though.
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post #48 of 69
1/21/13 at 8:05pm
The non-DSP 6000 is still at the same price from before Christmas. Oddly they say it usually ships within 4 to 6 months.
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post #49 of 69
1/31/13 at 2:22pm
Well, I just bought an iNuke 3000 DSP off Ebay for $329, and it arrived in new and sealed condition. Because I don't have the proper cables to hook it up, I haven't been able to play with it yet. I suppose I could power if up and play with the DSP. Thing is a little bigger than I expected, and those rack ears are kind of ugly. I might make some little black pieces to cover them up. Heck, I wish the whole thing was black, the bright silver really stands out amongst my all-black gear. But, it could be worse...

It probably goes against everything that everyone else believes, but I plan on running 2 subs, 1 per channel at 4 ohms. It should be enough power. If not, I may end up buying more amps in the future. I have my old RSS315HF-4 sitting around, but I'm kind of scared to hook this beastly 600W RMS / channel amplifier to a sub that can be maxed out with 300 watts...

HPF @ 20 Hz and all the parametric EQ settings though, I could make sure that my sub never hits xmax, lol... if Win ISD is fairly accurate.
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post #50 of 69
1/31/13 at 2:58pm
Why not spend $50 more and get the 6000? $388 on ebay!
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post #51 of 69
1/31/13 at 4:33pm
Non-DSP version at that price, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

Why not spend $50 more and get the 6000? $388 on ebay!
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post #52 of 69
1/31/13 at 7:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by baniels View Post

Non-DSP version at that price, right?


Oh ya, missed the DSP part. Sometimes I am just an idiot!
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post #53 of 69
2/1/13 at 9:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

Why not spend $50 more and get the 6000? $388 on ebay!

It may be "wrong headed" but I decided the 3000 DSP has enough power for any of my needs in the next 10 years. YMMV.
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post #54 of 69
2/2/13 at 8:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by djkest View Post

It may be "wrong headed" but I decided the 3000 DSP has enough power for any of my needs in the next 10 years. YMMV.

You do realize those are words that can get you kicked out of this forum!eek.gif

Enough is far short and too much is never enough here!!!tongue.gif
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post #55 of 69
3/13/13 at 4:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by autox320 View Post

Really the only thing the BFD is missing is a HPF, other than that least it doesn't have to worry about low line signal voltage to drive the amp like some experience with the mini dsp.

And the notes i've seen on the 2496 are as follows. Maybe can apply the same technique on other devices.

IlKKA who is A Subwoofer Expert and happens to have the SUBWOOFER tests forum over at HTS also works in the industry "Genelec" uses A DCX2496.... Here is what he had to say:
Quote:
I used the Behringer DCX2496, but it actually doesn't have a 15 Hz HP filter. I used its lowest, 20 Hz (12 dB/octave Butterworth), setting instead but used a wide boost (bandpass filter) around 20 Hz, so effectively the filter was around 15 Hz. I couldn't have gone much lower with the DCX2496.IlKKA....
you can't ( as far as i can tell ) set any filter to lower than 20 hz on either DCX or DEQ however what you can do is:

1 - set SSF to 20 hz

2 - apply parametric boost at 20 hz at the same time

3 - apply CUT at around 25 hz or so

by playing with the parameters of these 3 filters you can get 2 and 3 to mostly cancel each other out above 20 hz but their net effect will be significant boost below 20 hz

this boost below 20 hz will interact with 20 hz SSF and the net result will be that the boost will largely get cancelled and SSF will shift down in frequency.

how much lower you would be able to push the SSF frequency would depend on the order of the highpass. you would be able to push a 6db/oct highpass much lower than a 48db/oct highpass.

Well, that's actually quite easy. The DCX does not have ability to set filters below 20Hz. While this may seem to high, it's not really. You can easily extend the actual filter by for example setting high pass filter to 20Hz, 2nd order, Butterworth. Now add a single parameteric band at 20Hz in the EQ section on the unit, set to Q of 1.5 and gain of +4 dB. This will counteract and extend the roll off, giving you an effective roll off on the 13w7 of -3dB around 17Hz and -6db around 14hz, with rapid roll off after this; exactly what you want with this 10 cubic foot cabinet tuned to about 16Hz to prevent excessive excursion under this tuning frequency.
end Quote


OK I am having trouble Following these directions.. I am wondering since my Box is tuned to 16hz what would be good to set the iNuke DSP at??

1.Set SSF to 20hz,,, What is SSF?? is that the High Pass filter?? What type do I set this setting,, Butterworth,,Bessel,, linkwitz LS6????

2. Apply Parametric Boost to 20hz?? Is this on the Parametric/EQ Page under filter 1.. IF so what do I boos it too????

3. Apply CUT to around 25hz..Where do I Apply the CUT to 25hz??
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post #56 of 69
3/13/13 at 6:09am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Nephilim1 View Post

OK I am having trouble Following these directions.. I am wondering since my Box is tuned to 16hz what would be good to set the iNuke DSP at??

1.Set SSF to 20hz,,, What is SSF?? is that the High Pass filter?? What type do I set this setting,, Butterworth,,Bessel,, linkwitz LS6????

2. Apply Parametric Boost to 20hz?? Is this on the Parametric/EQ Page under filter 1.. IF so what do I boos it too????

3. Apply CUT to around 25hz..Where do I Apply the CUT to 25hz??

I got a curve very similar to a 15hz HPF using the following settings in inuke DSP

first order HPF and +2dB PEQ with Q=1, both @ 20Hz. 

Try modeling this in WinISD. You can tweak the curve somewhat by playing with the boost and Q settings. If however you need to go lower than 15Hz then look at the negative High Shelf Filter workaround LTD02 posted about recently.
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post #57 of 69
3/13/13 at 8:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

I got a curve very similar to a 15hz HPF using the following settings in inuke DSP

first order HPF and +2dB PEQ with Q=1, both @ 20Hz. 

Try modeling this in WinISD. You can tweak the curve somewhat by playing with the boost and Q settings. If however you need to go lower than 15Hz then look at the negative High Shelf Filter workaround LTD02 posted about recently.


OK I guess I was Not clear enough.. I do NOT understand.. What is Q=1?? What is a First order High Pass Filter?? these things are not on the software program.... can you post a screenshot of the iNuke Remote??
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post #58 of 69
3/13/13 at 9:07am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Nephilim1 View Post

OK I guess I was Not clear enough.. I do NOT understand.. What is Q=1?? What is a First order High Pass Filter?? these things are not on the software program.... can you post a screenshot of the iNuke Remote??

First Order HPF ( Butterworth 6dB/Octave ) @ 20Hz


+2dB PEQ with Q=1
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post #59 of 69
3/13/13 at 2:53pm
Ahhh Thank You SO Much for that Zheka, I hate being a Noob hehe!!


I am wondering How will I tell if I am at the Proper tunning I do NOT Want to go past the excursion limit as it is Only tuned to 16hz..(IS that the correct word??)


Also someone mentioned playing with WinISD How can I mess with WinISD to find out info they reccomended to do?? I thought WinISD ONly made the measurments for the hz rates in Db..
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post #60 of 69
3/13/13 at 3:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

I got a curve very similar to a 15hz HPF using the following settings in inuke DSP

first order HPF and +2dB PEQ with Q=1, both @ 20Hz. 

seems like the shallow slopes don't give a lot of protection; have you tried a higher order HP and more boost on the PEQ?
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