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Better Value then the Klipsch RF-7 II package ideas? - Page 5

post #121 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by superedge88 View Post

I wouldn't be able to stand listening to martin logan speakers distort at or near reference volume when asked to play dynamic home theater material. Which is why I go with much more sensitive speakers like Klipsch or QSC (these lines specifically because I own them, not to exclude other brands that are equally as sensitive)

Interesting, reference levels is like 105+db? You will definately lose hearing playing at those levels according to OSHA? It seems like a lot of Martin Logan owners came from Horns but I haven't done any statistical analysis on that. Not that horns are bad, but for critical listening, it's hard to beat electrostats.

Hearing them side by side there is no way one woudn't immediately be able to hear the difference in quality and accurate reproduction of the source material of the ML over the Klipsh.

But I guess horns have there specific application as do electrostats. So the OP should ask himself what type of music he listens to and at what decible level. I don't think anyone claiming they listen at reference levels actually put up a meter at C weighting to actually hear how loud that is. I think GI Joe in the theatres averaged 87db according to a review I read. Maybe 105+ db peaks during cymbal crashes or what not but I doubt ML has issues there.

Also, the OP should check out GoldenEar http://www.goldenear.com/products/triton-series

I heard nothing but awsome reviews on these and are the best bang for the buck for box speakers. The folded motion tweeters I hear are somewhat simliar to electrostats in their speed/transient response if I remember reading correctly. Plus you won't need a sub as they go down to 20hz. I would sleep well at night suggesting the OP buy a pair of these and without bias as I don't have a pair.
Edited by snyderkv - 7/30/13 at 11:17am
post #122 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

Interesting, reference levels is like 105+db? You will definately lose hearing playing at those levels according to OSHA? It seems like a lot of Martin Logan owners came from Horns but I haven't done any statistical analysis on that. Not that horns are bad, but for critical listening, it's hard to beat electrostats.

Hearing them side by side there is no way one woudn't immediately be able to hear the difference in quality and accurate reproduction of the source material of the ML over the Klipsh.

But I guess horns have there specific application as do electrostats. So the OP should ask himself what type of music he listens to and at what decible level. I don't think anyone claiming they listen at reference levels actually put up a meter at C weighting to actually hear how loud that is. I think GI Joe in the theatres averaged 87db according to a review I read. Maybe 105+ db peaks during cymbal crashes or what not but I doubt ML has issues /quote]

Reference is typical 75 or 85 db
post #123 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

Interesting, reference levels is like 105+db? You will definately lose hearing playing at those levels according to OSHA? It seems like a lot of Martin Logan owners came from Horns but I haven't done any statistical analysis on that. Not that horns are bad, but for critical listening, it's hard to beat electrostats.

Hearing them side by side there is no way one woudn't immediately be able to hear the difference in quality and accurate reproduction of the source material of the ML over the Klipsh.

But I guess horns have there specific application as do electrostats. So the OP should ask himself what type of music he listens to and at what decible level. I don't think anyone claiming they listen at reference levels actually put up a meter at C weighting to actually hear how loud that is. I think GI Joe in the theatres averaged 87db according to a review I read. Maybe 105+ db peaks during cymbal crashes or what not but I doubt ML has issues there.

Also, the OP should check out GoldenEar http://www.goldenear.com/products/triton-series

I heard nothing but awsome reviews on these and are the best bang for the buck for box speakers. The folded motion tweeters I hear are somewhat simliar to electrostats in their speed/transient response if I remember reading correctly. Plus you won't need a sub as they go down to 20hz. I would sleep well at night suggesting the OP buy a pair of these and without bias as I don't have a pair.

For HT a sub is very much needed. The Triton 2 rolls off like a rock at 32hz. http://www.stereophile.com/content/goldenear-technology-triton-two-loudspeaker-measurements The Triton three even higher. At 20hz, the Triton 2 is about 20db down. Also if you have a system that is capable of playing clean reference levels, you might be shocked at what you hear. The problem is most systems do not have the ability to play clean reference levels at the listening distance. Many can't do it from any distance.
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post #124 of 209
Thanks AV Sales,

From your link:

"I would not be surprised if they retailed at around $10,000/pair. But they cost only a fourth of that: $2499.98/pair. I don't know how GoldenEar can sell the Triton Two at that price and still make money for themselves and their dealers."

And the twos are rated down to 16hz with its built in subs.

Sounds like a Klipsch killer to me I'd recomend them to the OP
post #125 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by superedge88 View Post

[

Reference is typical 75 or 85 db

Wow 75db is like loud talking haha. Yeah I'm sure the ML gets really distorted at those levels. Maybe it was the THX Reference that certifies at 105+
post #126 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

Thanks AV Sales,

From your link:

"I would not be surprised if they retailed at around $10,000/pair. But they cost only a fourth of that: $2499.98/pair. I don't know how GoldenEar can sell the Triton Two at that price and still make money for themselves and their dealers."

And the twos are rated down to 16hz with its built in subs.

Sounds like a Klipsch killer to me I'd recomend them to the OP

It was the measurements that I was directing you towards. The Triton 2 can not come close to playing down to 16 hz. The measurements show them dropping off like a rock at 32 hz. They are 25db down by 16 hz. When a company give a speakers frequency response with out specifying a +/- value, then that spec is completely worthless. Normally you specify a +/- 3db frequency response. Best to not read the fluff and read the measured results. I am not judging the speaker. Just saying for HT use, a sub is certainly needed.

Reference is 105db peaks at the listening position. Often times that means the dialog will be 75 to 85 db. To give you an idea on what it takes to reproduce the dynamic transients of reference level HT:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1189404/danley-dts-10-super-spud-diy-kit/210#post_17409024
If you do not know who Tom Danley is, then do a google search. This is why, not many HT systems can do clean reference levels.
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post #127 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

It was the measurements that I was directing you towards. The Triton 2 can not come close to playing down to 16 hz. The measurements show them dropping off like a rock at 32 hz. They are 25db down by 16 hz. When a company give a speakers frequency response with out specifying a +/- value, then that spec is completely worthless. Normally you specify a +/- 3db frequency response. Best to not read the fluff and read the measured results. I am not judging the speaker. Just saying for HT use, a sub is certainly needed.

I always thought audiophiles trusted their ears and not the specs? Just based off the reviews, I'd say the bass blows away the Klipsch. How can it not with a built in 1200w sub compared to a woofer? I think whether or not you need a sub is based on you rneeds, room size etc. I wouldn't buy the GoldenEar myself but in my opinion it represents the new standard in price to sound ratio. Plus they look less like tennage basement rock speakers we all had growing up and look a bit more sophisticated and with a smaller profile. But since I'm a ML fan I can recomend GoldenEar to the OP without bias as I would never buy either of them anyways.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

If you do not know who Tom Danley is, then do a google search. This is why, not many HT systems can do clean reference levels.


Ok say you have a uncompressed DTS-True symphonic rock concert on DVD that peaks +25db, doens't the amps current/voltage output stage have more to do with handling those transients/cymbals etc than the speakers themselves? And most people that buy common off the shelf best buy speakers like Klipsch are probably buying an over rated amp to go with it. I heard some reviews stating actual measured voltage to be like 10 watts per channel all channels driven at rated distortion ~4 times less than rated FTC power. IMO the amp is more important for those high peaks than the speaker.
Edited by snyderkv - 7/31/13 at 3:47am
post #128 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

Wow 75db is like loud talking haha. Yeah I'm sure the ML gets really distorted at those levels. Maybe it was the THX Reference that certifies at 105+

I was referring to home theater material being played which does have peaks above 100db quite easily at reference volume. With a ~93db sensitive speaker unable to play those peaks without distorting at a typical listening distance of 12-18 feet. If you sit right next to your speakers then you're in great shape.
post #129 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

Ok say you have a uncompressed DTS-True symphonic rock concert on DVD that peaks +25db, doens't the amps current/voltage output stage have more to do with handling those transients/cymbals etc than the speakers themselves?
The electronics are no more significant than the speakers. Where amps are concerned it's easy to use their specs to derive what they're actually capable of. With speakers one must have far more data than typical manufacturers provide, and said data must be accurate. While Klipsch could serve as the poster child for incomplete and inaccurate specs, those posted on the Golden Ear site are no better.
BTW, the Triton 'quadratic planar infrasonic bass radiators' are passive radiators, which work in the same fashion as ports. They are not drivers. Their 5x9 woofers are roughly equivalent to a 6.5 inch woofer. By no means are they a substitute for a subwoofer.
Edited by Bill Fitzmaurice - 7/31/13 at 5:54am
post #130 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

I always thought audiophiles trusted their ears and not the specs?
This isn't the typical audiophile forum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

Just based off the reviews, I'd say the bass blows away the Klipsch. How can it not with a built in 1200w sub compared to a woofer?
Look at the graph. Frequency response down to 16 Hz is a blatant lie. 25 Hz is closer to the truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

I think whether or not you need a sub is based on you rneeds, room size etc.
For HT, a sub is a must. Or don't you care about the LFE channel?
Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

Ok say you have a uncompressed DTS-True symphonic rock concert on DVD that peaks +25db, doens't the amps current/voltage output stage have more to do with handling those transients/cymbals etc than the speakers themselves?
How much voltage you'll need depends on the sensitivity of the speakers, and how much current you draw depends also depends on the impedance of the speakers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

And most people that buy common off the shelf best buy speakers like Klipsch are probably buying an over rated amp to go with it.
As I have said before, Klipsch sell a huge range of products. In this thread, I are discussing RF7-II. Can you get those at Best Buy?
In general terms, Klipsch also have the Heritage, Cinema and Palladium lines to consider.
Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

I heard some reviews stating actual measured voltage to be like 10 watts per channel all channels driven at rated distortion ~4 times less than rated FTC power. IMO the amp is more important for those high peaks than the speaker.
I am not sure of the point you want to convey with that; external amps are cheap if you actually believe that. But 10 Watts would be enough to reach reference on my Klipsch in any case.
post #131 of 209
Klipsch has a wide range of speakers. And sadly the ones most people hear are the lower level lines (and when they do hear the reference line its a lower level one). So some of the bad pub they get is understandable and expected.

But most of the lower level built in china klipsch speakers sound nothing like there top of line usa built speakers (at least of what i have heard so far).
post #132 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reference_head View Post

Klipsch has a wide range of speakers. And sadly the ones most people hear are the lower level lines (and when they do hear the reference line its a lower level one). So some of the bad pub they get is understandable and expected.

But most of the lower level built in china klipsch speakers sound nothing like there top of line usa built speakers (at least of what i have heard so far).

I'm not saying anything bad about Klipsch. I said it has its application. I just wanted to answer the OP and mention the better valued GoldenEars for <3000 as requested.
post #133 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

I'm not saying anything bad about Klipsch. I said it has its application. I just wanted to answer the OP and mention the better valued GoldenEars for <3000 as requested.

Hard to say its a better value if you have not owned both speakers

(and it sounds like you have not owned either of them)
post #134 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

Look at the graph. Frequency response down to 16 Hz is a blatant lie. 25 Hz is closer to the truth.

I figured if they all equally lie as Bill mentioned, then we can infact compare the paper specs thus proving GEar blows away the competition. And 25hz? I shook my condo with my speakers at 29hz. I couldn't imagine what 25hz would do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

How much voltage you'll need depends on the sensitivity of the speakers, and how much current you draw depends also depends on the impedance of the speakers.

Point being if both are not met, you will have current/voltage clipping before you have speaker clipping.
Quote:
Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

As I have said before, Klipsch sell a huge range of products. In this thread, I are discussing RF7-II. Can you get those at Best Buy?.

Yes including the recently added Martin Logan Montis (10,000/pair) and B&W 801's which cost more I think. That's where I made the comparisons
Quote:
Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

I am not sure of the point you want to convey with that; external amps are cheap if you actually believe that. But 10 Watts would be enough to reach reference on my Klipsch in any case.

At 3 meters with 25db peaks above an average listening level of 85db dialog, you will need 285 watt amp and 500+ watt amp at 4 meters with a Klipsch RF7II rated at 95db (home theatre magazine). Sensitive or not (ML is 91db) the point was to prove that an amp will current/voltage clip before a speaker does in my opinion ofcourse I could be wrong but 10 watts at those volumes? Ouch!. So to that poster who thinks ML and other speaker brands distort at reference levels, I'd have to disagree and assume they weren't being driven with enough power or they are just cheap speakers. If you have ineficient speakers, just buy a bigger amp.

http://www.crownaudio.com/elect-pwr-req.htm
Edited by snyderkv - 7/31/13 at 8:42am
post #135 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reference_head View Post

Hard to say its a better value if you have not owned both speakers

(and it sounds like you have not owned either of them)

No just basing off some rave reviews. Woth for the OP to check them out
post #136 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

Are you saying we're arm chair listeners who don't critically listen to music and our ears?
Saying that we don't believe in fancy wild claims on this forum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

I figured if they all equally lie, then we can infact compare the paper specs. Focusing on spec sheet lies is a good way to avoid the fact that the GoldenEar still blows the Klipsch away in bass. And 25hz? I shook my condo with my speakers at 29hz. I couldn't imagine what 25hz would do.
How would you know whic would blow the other on bass if you haven't heard either and are relying on specs that are known to be flawed?
Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

Point being if both are not met, you will have current/voltage clipping before you have speaker clipping.
If I believe your 10 W claim. Reaching rated distorsion doesn't mean it's audible; it's still quite low. OTOH, speakers tend to start showing signs of compression at 10% of their power rating.
Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

Yes including the recently added Martin Logan Montis (10,000/pair) and B&W 801's which cost more I think. That's where I compared the Klipsch with the ML.
So why all the derogatory comments? (common off the shelf best buy speakers like Klipsch, Doesn't Klipsch compete with Polk and all those other lower brands?)

And you still are drawing brand-wide conclusions without considering the other lines (Heritage, Palladium, Cinema)
Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

At 3 meters with 25db peaks above an average listening level of 85db dialog, you will need 285 watt amp and 500+ watt amp at 4 meters with a Klipsch RF7II rated at 95db (home theatre magazine). Sensitivity isn't everything and the point was to prove that an amp will current/voltage clip before a speaker does in my opinion ofcourse. So to that poster who thinks ML and other speaker brands distort at reference levels, I'd have to disagree and assume they weren't being driven with enough power or they are just cheap speakers.
Huh? reference is 105 dB peaks (115 dB for the sub), yet you are saying 120 dB. Take 15 dB off your 285W and you've got 9 Watts, So suddenly 10 Watts is okay.
Or are you saying that ML panels can play 120 dB peaks without distorting?
post #137 of 209
We also need to stop comparing measured specs to manufacturers specs. People were doing this all the time with the EP-2500 vs other amps. They would use the measured results of the 2500 vs specs of crowns and QSC's, not very fair. If you don't have measured results from a speaker then you don't know where or how that got their specs. I know ML's and Magnepans do not play as loud as Klipsch speakers no matter their real sensitivity ratings. If both can play at the desired level which is better sounding and why?
post #138 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

Saying that we don't believe in fancy wild claims on this forum.
How would you know whic would blow the other on bass if you haven't heard either and are relying on specs that are known to be flawed?
If I believe your 10 W claim. Reaching rated distorsion doesn't mean it's audible; it's still quite low. OTOH, speakers tend to start showing signs of compression at 10% of their power rating.
So why all the derogatory comments? (common off the shelf best buy speakers like Klipsch, Doesn't Klipsch compete with Polk and all those other lower brands?)

And you still are drawing brand-wide conclusions without considering the other lines (Heritage, Palladium, Cinema)
Huh? reference is 105 dB peaks (115 dB for the sub), yet you are saying 120 dB. Take 15 dB off your 285W and you've got 9 Watts, So suddenly 10 Watts is okay.
Or are you saying that ML panels can play 120 dB peaks without distorting?

Now you're just reaching for argument sake, I answered your questions and gave my opinion.

I know what 29hz sounds like because I read the actual measurements and used that as a baseline. So a measured 25hz is obviously a lot lower.

I'm not considering upper Klipsch models because the OP was talking about speakers better valued than Klipsch for <3000 hence suggesting Golden Ear as a possible audition based on the rave reviews.
post #139 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

Now you're just reaching for argument sake, I answered your questions and gave my opinion.
Fine. Then we simply disagree about everything. smile.gif
post #140 of 209
So you have factual proof that they are a better value? Or its based on hearing both side by side on the same amp in the same room?

Im sure golden ear are nice speakers and to some ears they might sound better. But better value speakers is a loaded question imo. To hard to tell what one person will like vs another. Its like food or music taste. Hard to value
post #141 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reference_head View Post

So you have factual proof that they are a better value? Or its based on hearing both side by side on the same amp in the same room?

Im sure golden ear are nice speakers and to some ears they might sound better. But better value speakers is a loaded question imo. To hard to tell what one person will like vs another. Its like food or music taste. Hard to value

Didn't I included words like "IMO" and "based on reviews"?

If people only comented on speakers they both heard side by side in a controlled setting with a switch box that accounts for volume and everything else, then I don't think the OP would get much help.
Edited by snyderkv - 7/31/13 at 9:59am
post #142 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

Saying that we don't believe in fancy wild claims on this forum.
+1. Fancy wild claims should remain where they belong, at the Audio Visual Fantasy Forum, not the Audio Visual Science Forum. Or, as my colleague Ethan Winer puts it,

post #143 of 209
Hey guys, I just got the f30 synergy, how far away am I from great sound?
post #144 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reference_head View Post

So you have factual proof that they are a better value? Or its based on hearing both side by side on the same amp in the same room?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

+1. Fancy wild claims,


Bill and Reference head,

Yes I found some factual data that takes the psychoacoustics and bias from fan boys out of the equation to determine if Klipsch really is a better value since fan boys typically won't look objectively at professional reviewers opinions and spec sheets, I'm posting a blind speaker test. Here is a clip of what was said.

Bose for an example. They tested horribly, and by the time we eliminated their 101s and 201s, we only tested one of the Life series. Polk Audio, Klipsch, and many others suffered the same fate"

So under $5000, reviewers did not prefere the Klipsch

http://www.avrev.com/forum/loudspeakers/2627-best-sounding-speakers-according-scientific-tests.html
post #145 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klipsc Guy View Post

Hey guys, I just got the f30 synergy, how far away am I from great sound?

One (1) room.
post #146 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by superedge88 View Post

I wouldn't be able to stand listening to martin logan speakers distort at or near reference volume when asked to play dynamic home theater material. Which is why I go with much more sensitive speakers like Klipsch or QSC (these lines specifically because I own them, not to exclude other brands that are equally as sensitive)

Interesting, reference levels is like 105+db? You will definately lose hearing playing at those levels according to OSHA?
Quote:

105 dB is for a peak. Peaks are by definition short term. OSHA recommendations are based on steady state SPLs. 85 dB represents steady state when peaks are as high as 105 dB SPl.

Quote:
It seems like a lot of Martin Logan owners came from Horns but I haven't done any statistical analysis on that. Not that horns are bad, but for critical listening, it's hard to beat electrostats.

Actually, its pretty easy to beat electrostats. Due to their complexity they must have reduced price/performance.

Quote:
Hearing them side by side there is no way one woudn't immediately be able to hear the difference in quality and accurate reproduction of the source material of the ML over the Klipsh.

Well, this comparison does not involve Klipsch, but it does involve a competitor: Infiinty:

post #147 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

[

The folded motion tweeters I hear are somewhat simliar to electrostats in their speed/transient response if I remember reading correctly.

The superior speed of electrostat and other planar speakers is an audiophile myth.

Low mass does not necessarily guarantee high speed or improved transient response. In fact Newton's laws of motion say that if needed we can always overcome higher mass if it exists with additional force.

One of the problems with electrostat and magnetic planar speakers is that there are low limits to the amount of force that is available to move the diaphragm. With electrostats force comes from high voltage and you can only take high voltage so far before you have corona and arcing. Magnetic planar speakers have limits on how much force they can generate because the sound has to pass through the magnets. It turns out that there are plain old dome speakers that are flat up to 40 KHz which is more than twice what we need to please our ears.
post #148 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post


Bill and Reference head,

Yes I found some factual data that takes the psychoacoustics and bias from fan boys out of the equation to determine if Klipsch really is a better value since fan boys typically won't look objectively at professional reviewers opinions and spec sheets, I'm posting a blind speaker test. Here is a clip of what was said.

Bose for an example. They tested horribly, and by the time we eliminated their 101s and 201s, we only tested one of the Life series. Polk Audio, Klipsch, and many others suffered the same fate"

So under $5000, reviewers did not prefere the Klipsch

http://www.avrev.com/forum/loudspeakers/2627-best-sounding-speakers-according-scientific-tests.html
What i read was they tested one klipsch (no model or price was said so it could be a $100 speaker). How does that prove anything as far as the rf-7ii?
post #149 of 209
And that test took place in 2008. The rf-7ii was not even available yet
post #150 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post


So under $5000, reviewers did not prefere the Klipsch

http://www.avrev.com/forum/loudspeakers/2627-best-sounding-speakers-according-scientific-tests.html

Reads like ML advertising. Did they ever publish the final findings, 60% done when that was posted? 2000 people had their hearing checked to be tested in 5 identical rooms, 8 people at a time? That's fifty 40-people trials after individual hearing tests. Who funded this expensive endeavor? Like some in the thread question, did it ever happen? More trolling.
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