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How many years out are we from a single standard to rule them all? - Page 2

post #31 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post

To be fair to Sonos, they do provide a fairly extensive control protocol. We have two pretty full featured drivers for the Sonos system, and didn't have any inside information to do that. Though it would be nice if they actually provided documentation for it instead of forcing us to figure it out. Some of it doesn't require much figuring, since it's standard UPnP media stuff. But they have proprietary bits that are not documented and some of that it's hard to use since it's not clear what itis and how it works.

That's better than what I expected, but coding from reverse-engineering, as you know, comes with its own risks. The stuff that they don't document publicly could change without notice - you'd likely be on top of that, but there's enough instances of even published interfaces breaking due to updates, let alone unpublished! biggrin.gif
post #32 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neurorad View Post

az1324, if you work for Insteon/SmartHome, you should put it in your signature.
I'm sorry, az1324. You seem too knowledgeable to use Insteon. wink.gif

You may be in the business, but you don't work for SmartLabs, as I suspected. Honestly, thanks for the help you've given me.

Seems like every year around CES, this thread topic is revived. No company is large enough to win - but Nest + Apple looks like the current frontrunner.

I didn't know Nest asked C4 to remove the Nest driver. That's a little unnerving.
post #33 of 49
I guess I think of the liability issues that get complicated too. It is one thing when a hacker gains access to a person's computer and steals their identity and causes havoc. It is an entirely different issue when they cause physical harm. Imagine hacker finds an exploit that allows them to turn down the thermostat during the winter while you are on vacation and the pipes freeze and burst. Or they set off the sprinkler system. Or they crank the speaker system, not only destroying the speakers, but causing the infant who was sleeping in the room to have permanent hearing damage. Disabling alarm systems remotely, disabling pool alarm systems, turning on major appliances remotely.

The more that things become automated, the more we need to really think about how these things could be used for mischief and what can be done to prevent that. Good security is never cheap.
post #34 of 49
^^^

I wonder if Nest has ever had a security breach like this: I doubt it but agree it is possible: and I suppose that is one reason they might cite to not allow a third party app.

But there are many systems in operation now, like C4, Crestron, RTI et al and I have never heard of such reports

Apple and Nest are in a position to pull this off: I imagine their Apple TV (the display) will be a major piece to this

I do hope someone will do it: the entire industry is a mess with so many standards, HDMI handshake issues, and a lack of a single control standard

pity the poor guy who thinks he can build a new home and easily integrate the electronics in it
post #35 of 49
Quote:
I do hope someone will do it: the entire industry is a mess with so many standards, HDMI handshake issues, and a lack of a single control standard

Yet, the broadcast industry has had reliable control standards in place for decades. Uncompressed HD and 32 audio channels can be carried by a single inexpensive coax cable.
RS422 for machine control, DMX512 for lighting control...all can operate over IP as well.
Maybe the home automation industry should look at what's alread been done.
post #36 of 49
Thread Starter 
I wonder how much of the Balkanization is even intentional. Most of the players have to see how unsustainable this is. It seems like the current systems and standards are almost unsalvageable for the average consumer. It's probably going to have to be a fresh start by a really powerful company, be it Apple, Google or whoever. They'll just completely ignore everything that came before.
post #37 of 49
No one has that sort of clout really. Both Apple and Google are small compared to the combined size of the companies involved in this, which would include not just the directly and peripherally automation related companies (quite big as a group themselves), but a large number of the CE and media related companies as well, which are huge as a group. No company can manufacture all those products themselves, therefore they can't force the issue. They could only convince others to voluntarily get on board. But that's tough. It would be semi-possible at the protocol level, almost impossible at the physical transport level, where there are so many business, technical, and marketing issues driving things.

And of course I'd have to say that Apple is the worst possible example given that their whole thing is to ignore the rest of the world and do whatever they want. So no one would accept their attempts to force a standard, probably just out of sheer spite towards them :-)
post #38 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post

And of course I'd have to say that Apple is the worst possible example given that their whole thing is to ignore the rest of the world and do whatever they want. So no one would accept their attempts to force a standard, probably just out of sheer spite towards them :-)

Agreed! I know I'd be hard pressed to accept an apple standard, simply out of spite. Not that apple would ever actually propose a standard. Typically they are proprietary and difficult to interface with. Or, they take an existing standard/product, and make the world think they invented it (FireWire and ThunderBolt anyone!)

But I agree, I don't think apple could make this happen. From the sheer complexity of it, it would be very difficult to make a standard that would allow everything to interface perfectly, let alone getti g manufacturers on board.
post #39 of 49
post #40 of 49
I've read in several previous threads, especially in Control4 threads, and now in this one that pro grade networks are the key. Just like a lot of home automation products, pro grade network gear is also out of the public eye. I have an Airport Extreme and it has served us well but I fear it could lead to problems with more automation down the road. So far, only my Nest t-stats are automation items I have on a network. If one were to upgrade to a more robust network, away from the consumer wireless gear, what products do we look at? I don't think many people fear the pro grade stuff, we just don't know where to look.
post #41 of 49
^^

if you ask a pro, they will mention names like Pakedge, Ruckuss, or Luxul: there are many more

I am using Ubiquity Networks Unify UAP-PRO Enterprise series WAP with some success: they also make a less expensive AP series which uses the same software: you can buy these on Amazon

nothing special about my router an Asus RT-N66U: : using as a router only

you can check WiFi operation with programs such as Fing and Speedtest X Pro (iPad apps) and WiFi signal strength with Amp'd wireless or WiFi Analyzer (Android apps)

Proper setup is important: for example with the Nest Thermostats be sure you set DHCP reservations for each
post #42 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by ekkoville View Post

I've read in several previous threads, especially in Control4 threads, and now in this one that pro grade networks are the key.

You don't need to pay for gear aimed at the "pro" market.

Most any quality network gear will work just fine.

I use SonicWall routers, HP switches and EnGenius APs for many years with no issues.
post #43 of 49
li think you should choose a router that has been shown to work well with the HA system of your choosing. If you're using CQC, what do others use that works well? What brand and models do C4 rec? If Crestron, what has been shown to work well, among the yahoo Crestron group?

I recently switched to Cisco RV for router, and Ubiquiti APs (thanks again MarkRubin), without a hiccup. The APs were straightforward, but I haven't even begun to learn what this router is capable of. I'm on the Cisco learning path with a CCNA book. I read about 100 pages before turning to an A+ book, to make sure I know the basics, before continuing the CCNA route.
post #44 of 49
The standard will be IP - if only because as a transport layer it can operate over Wifi, Cat5/6, microwave, etc, and billions have been invested in getting it right.

IR and RF will die, proprietary network protocols (including CEC-HDMI) will also pass - and simply because you cannot outspend the largest companies on the planet (Apple/Amazon/Microsoft) on new protocols.

The only thing I ask for is that light switches still work with the network down. I have a fancy gas fireplace in my living room with electronic ignition. The only issue is that when the power goes out, I can't use it! Absolutely ridiculous.

Switches should be wired for power and networked for control, but not "virtualized".
post #45 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by archbid View Post

The standard will be IP - if only because as a transport layer it can operate over Wifi, Cat5/6, microwave, etc, and billions have been invested in getting it right..

Which is kind of scary when you consider how often it doesn't get right. It's really not optimal for the home when you get down to it. It's a system designed for the technically inclined, not for the home owner to manage easily. Not that it can't be made to work, but if I were installing systems for money, and my reputation and my time was on the line, I'd probably stick to serially controlled devices where I could. That private connection from the automation system to the device is more likely to be unaffected over time.

If the installer could dictate and control access to the IT infrastructure of the home that would be one thing, but that's almost never going to be the case. So it's a situation where, as much as you might work to insure that the customer can't mess up your automation solution, the whole solution may still depend upon a system that the customer can easily mess up. And when it happens, you have to go in there and prove it's not your fault, because it is your fault until you do so.
post #46 of 49
Finally getting the world on a serious track towards IPV6 would help a lot of course. In the home it would mean no more concerns about IP address assignment and DHCP and such, or limits on the number of available addresses.
post #47 of 49
Touch Control System (TCS) is an easy-to-use 3D platform for controlling your home, car, boat, electronics projects, and more!

I started a new thread with a lot more detail, check it out here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1454316/control-anything-with-touch-control-system-tcs
post #48 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post

Which is kind of scary when you consider how often it doesn't get right. It's really not optimal for the home when you get down to it. It's a system designed for the technically inclined, not for the home owner to manage easily. ...

I can't believe nobody has linked to this yet:

http://xkcd.com/927/




Craig
PS Weird, AVS now 'imports' graphics from other sites rather than allow an external link?!?
post #49 of 49
That's a good one :-)
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