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RSS460HO / DIY Sound Group Flat Pack Build

post #1 of 90
1/12/13 at 9:00am
Thread Starter 
Greetings,

It's time for me to fill out my SEOS five channel system with a new sub(s).

As background, I upgraded an aging Pardigm 5.1 system with SEOS mains and sides, per below.
I had great input and inspiration from 'Lil Mike and dB-Kicker on making a 'lil Wrecker: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1417294/seos12-2512-build/210#post_22316836, but I'm thinking I'll need to go smaller and more conservative (i.e., easier build).

On size, my theater is roughly 17 x 21 and I need to add treatments and a screen wall so it's getting a bit cramped on "movie night". Smaller subs will be able to fit behind the screen wall and not encroach on seating space.

On the ease of build, I know this is relative, but I'm looking for the "easy button" on this build. I'm in a new job, traveling a ton, so I need the easiest path. To that, I have first hand experience with DIY Sound Group's flat packs versus full DIY, and can attest to the ease. Erich's flat packs are pretty much "paint by numbers". Just the level of ease I need.

Special thanks to 'lil Mike and dB-Kicker for their ongoing interest and support in my sub planning.

So, here are the current plans:
  • Number of Subs. Ultimately two, but may build one at first.
  • Driver. RSS460HO
  • Sealed. The 460 seems to do well sealed and in a lot less space.
  • Single/Dual. Single. I don't think I have the room, money, and/or know how to do a dual.
  • Box. Erich is working on a specific box for the 460, but it will be similar to the 4.5 cu foot flat pack. I believe the final box will be closer to 4.0 cu ft.
  • Amp. I bounce around a lot on this. First, do I go plate or external pro amp? Second, leaning toward pro amps, I'm thinking Behringer NU3000DSP with an Art Clean box pro.

As far as similar builds, I'm looking at James, Fade to Black, and Gorilla83's build threads for info and inspiration.
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post #2 of 90
1/12/13 at 10:13am
Why do you need the art clean box pro? The Berry amp has unbalanced inputs. There is also built in gain booster in an unlikly event your AVR cannot drive the amp to full power .
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post #3 of 90
1/12/13 at 10:58am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

Why do you need the art clean box pro? The Berry amp has unbalanced inputs. There is also built in gain booster in an unlikly event your AVR cannot drive the amp to full power .

Hey Zheka

I assumed the inuke was XLR, only. Wow. How did I miss that? Thanks!!

Inuke looks better than ever. Unbalance and EQ!!

Quick question on the EQ. Have you set up a sealed box with it? How much and which bump for the sealed?

Thanks again, Zheka
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post #4 of 90
1/12/13 at 12:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Java View Post


Quick question on the EQ. Have you set up a sealed box with it? How much and which bump for the sealed?

I am only using 6dB shelving filter from 30Hz down with my CHT CS-18.2 which is a sealed design. It's not possible to do Linkwitz Transform with this DSP, but I've seen examples of how to emulate it with shelving filters and PEQ. I am not sure what the benefit of LT over plain shelving filter is anyway.

The DSP cannot set any filters below 20Hz but this is not a limitation under most circumstances.

i think if one is not put off by the looks and the fan noise, this is indeed an excellent choice.
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post #5 of 90
1/12/13 at 2:08pm
"I am not sure what the benefit of LT over plain shelving filter is anyway."

the benefit, allowing one to change the "q" or the slope of the rolloff, is largely a theoretical one. for most all practical purposes, the shelving filter is all that is needed.

if the driver has a big inductance hump that might need to be eq'd out, but that is another matter.
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post #6 of 90
1/12/13 at 2:24pm
"The DSP cannot set any filters below 20Hz but this is not a limitation under most circumstances."

i'm not sure exactly how they work, but it appears that the "corners" cannot be set below 20hz.

iirc a high shelf with negative gain can push most of the filter below 20hz because it is the "front" corner that specifies that particular filter.
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post #7 of 90
1/12/13 at 5:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"The DSP cannot set any filters below 20Hz but this is not a limitation under most circumstances."

i'm not sure exactly how they work, but it appears that the "corners" cannot be set below 20hz.

iirc a high shelf with negative gain can push most of the filter below 20hz because it is the "front" corner that specifies that particular filter.


right, it is the corners that cannot be set below 20Hz. the effect of the filters (shelving or HPF) extends beyond this point. that's why it is possible to emulate HPF below 20Hz by combing PEQ boost and HPF at or above the 20Hz limit for example.
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post #8 of 90
2/23/13 at 7:43am
Thread Starter 
Update


  • The flat packs are on the way. I should get them midweek, so I should be able to tackle them soon (lot's on my plate, though).
  • iNuke 6000 DSP. Per LTD and Archea's advice, I'm thinking about getting the 6000 DSP over the 3000 DSP.
  • Duratex. I have avoided Duratex to date because I didn't like the texture, but after rereading many threads on it, it looks like I can get a smooth texture with roam rollers. I'm also liking what I read about the ease of use (no priming, no bondo) and it's ability to fill cracks.


As I get ready for the build, what would you all want to see as far as documentation?

Want me to do a video like the below I did on my surround build? Sight unseen, I'm assuming the builds are fairly similar. Need one dedicated to a sub build?




Given I'm thinking of use duratex and I believe there are some questions on the finishing side, I'd thinking a finishing video maybe useful.

Last, I put together this draft flat pack instruction for the surround build. Helpful to do one similar for the sub flat pack?
SEOS .75 cu ft - Delta 10A flat pack.pdf 1040k .pdf file
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post #9 of 90
3/3/13 at 10:59am
Thread Starter 
Update

The flat packs and duratex are here, so I'm ready to start...

Given the similar build threads (Sibuna's, Carp's, and Gorilla's) and given no response from the above, I'm going to do only minimal documentation on the build.

Quick question. Given this is a sealed build, I'm assuming I need to use PL to ensure a tight seal, right? Erich claims I use way too much wood glue per my last builds, so I'm assuming that PL is just an insurance policy. Right?

So, what PL glue to use? This?

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post #10 of 90
3/3/13 at 11:25am
What is with you people and going crazy with sealing the seams. confused.gif

If the panels fit together nice all you need is a consistent bead of glue along the joint and that will give you an air tight seal be it wood glue or any other construction adhesive that works with wood. I like wood glue because you can get it all over your hands and wash it off with water. I stopped gluing the inside seams of my normal boxes years ago once I realized it is not needed, saves me a lot of time and the inside of the enclosure does not look like a mess. Only exception is on complex cuts like the Synergy horn where I had a few panels that did not line up perfect.

To me it does not look like you are using way to much glue in the video above. You don't "need" to use as much glue as you did but there is nothing wrong with using that much except you go through it faster.

Also ported enclosures can reach much greater internal pressures then sealed ones because at resonance you have both the port and the driver working together.



I always like your build threads. smile.gif
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post #11 of 90
3/3/13 at 11:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Java View Post

Update

The flat packs and duratex are here, so I'm ready to start...

Given the similar build threads (Sibuna's, Carp's, and Gorilla's) and given no response from the above, I'm going to do only minimal documentation on the build.

Quick question. Given this is a sealed build, I'm assuming I need to use PL to ensure a tight seal, right? Erich claims I use way too much wood glue per my last builds, so I'm assuming that PL is just an insurance policy. Right?

So, what PL glue to use? This?


thats the right PL
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post #12 of 90
3/3/13 at 12:04pm
not really necessary as mtg mentioned for cnc cut mdf.

the pressure isn't going to be high enough to blow up a glued mdf cabinet. at least, i hope not!
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post #13 of 90
3/3/13 at 12:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

not really necessary as mtg mentioned for cnc cut mdf.

the pressure isn't going to be high enough to blow up a glued mdf cabinet. at least, i hope not!

I'd agree with that. I think PL is useful if for some reason your cuts are off (which I'm sure most of us are anal enough here that that isn't going to be the case), and for sealing the corners. I've built cabs with PL and standard Wood Glue and I much prefer the wood glue over the PL.
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post #14 of 90
3/3/13 at 12:39pm
i did my boxes with Titebond 3

i only used PL on 1 of the sides on 1 box because i was a little off and needed to fill a small gap (one of the inner ribs was not hitting the side panel for the entire length, slight warp), i agree that the CNC + dadoes make it so you don't really need to use PL. However i did run a bead of PL on inner joints when all was said and done just to be sure

PL is also annoying to work with, its stinks, takes 24 hours to cure and makes an absolute mess. you need to wear gloves when using it as well
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post #15 of 90
3/6/13 at 3:30pm
Thread Starter 
Update

Making progress on the boxes.

Drivers and stuff will be here this week.

But, just ready to order a Behringer NU6000DSP and they are back ordered +2 weeks everywhere. Worth waiting or is there a substitute?
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post #16 of 90
3/24/13 at 10:40am
Thread Starter 
Box Assembly

A lot of folks have jumped on the DIY Sound Group sub flat packs and RSS460HO driver bandwagon and there have been some great build threads, so I will not go into too much depth on this.

I hope this is of value.

Box Plans
DIY Sound Group 4 Cu Ft Sub.pdf 201k .pdf file











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post #17 of 90
3/24/13 at 6:10pm
Ahhh brings back memories... from last week!!

Your pictures look very good - I mean VERY good you must have a nice camera? smile.gif
Well, I may have gone overboard with the PL, I did it on every box and every seam including the bracing. But hey, it's done now and I'll there is no chance of a leak.

I didn't wear gloves, but I did have a nice layer(s) of extra "skin" on my finger for more than a few days since the project took a couple weeks. Took awhile to peel off the glue, and as soon as I got it all off my finger it was time to do some more glueing.

The flat packs are great aren't they?
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post #18 of 90
3/26/13 at 6:15pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Ahhh brings back memories... from last week!!

Your pictures look very good - I mean VERY good you must have a nice camera? smile.gif
Well, I may have gone overboard with the PL, I did it on every box and every seam including the bracing. But hey, it's done now and I'll there is no chance of a leak.

I didn't wear gloves, but I did have a nice layer(s) of extra "skin" on my finger for more than a few days since the project took a couple weeks. Took awhile to peel off the glue, and as soon as I got it all off my finger it was time to do some more glueing.

The flat packs are great aren't they?

Thanks much, Carp. Brings back memories or nightmares? wink.gif With cranking out 8 of this bad boys, you have to be wiped out.

I absolutely love the flat packs. Night/day difference from doing it from scratch.

Quick question. What amp(s) are you using? I had some great advice to go for the NU6000 DSP but it's sold out everywhere. The in stock date keeps slipping, so I'm starting to rethink the amp. Drop to NU3000DSP? Go MiniDSP and EP4000?

Any thoughts?

Thanks
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post #19 of 90
3/26/13 at 6:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Java View Post

Thanks much, Carp. Brings back memories or nightmares? wink.gif With cranking out 8 of this bad boys, you have to be wiped out.

I absolutely love the flat packs. Night/day difference from doing it from scratch.

Quick question. What amp(s) are you using? I had some great advice to go for the NU6000 DSP but it's sold out everywhere. The in stock date keeps slipping, so I'm starting to rethink the amp. Drop to NU3000DSP? Go MiniDSP and EP4000?

Any thoughts?

Thanks

Hmmm not sure. I'm using the Cerwin Vega CV 5000 but that's for 8, it would be overkill for 1. I like the inukes, their dsp stuff is very cool. If you don't mind learning how to use the minidsp that combined with a ep4000 would be great too. Definitely ask around though, I'm by no means an expert on matching amps and drivers.
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post #20 of 90
3/26/13 at 6:36pm
Java - very nice video, thx for making it.
I'm sure others new to DIY here would like to view it just to see in 3 minutes how to build a speaker box.

OT:
I take it this is a time lapse, how many stills did you use?
I use "Time Lapse Assembler" with my 27" iMac, http://www.dayofthenewdan.com/projects/time-lapse-assembler-1/
One I made 2 years ago:
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post #21 of 90
3/26/13 at 7:05pm
Java, i'm running 2 of the HO18s from a EP4k
doing great so far,
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post #22 of 90
3/26/13 at 8:17pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Hmmm not sure. I'm using the Cerwin Vega CV 5000 but that's for 8, it would be overkill for 1. I like the inukes, their dsp stuff is very cool. If you don't mind learning how to use the minidsp that combined with a ep4000 would be great too. Definitely ask around though, I'm by no means an expert on matching amps and drivers.

For what it's worth, I'm running two subs. They each take about 1k watts. I was going to use the limiter on the nu6000.
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post #23 of 90
3/26/13 at 8:25pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Java - very nice video, thx for making it.
I'm sure others new to DIY here would like to view it just to see in 3 minutes how to build a speaker box.

OT:
I take it this is a time lapse, how many stills did you use?
I use "Time Lapse Assembler" with my 27" iMac, http://www.dayofthenewdan.com/projects/time-lapse-assembler-1/
One I made 2 years ago:

Thanks, mtbdubex

Very cool time lapse video. Actually I didn't use time lapses. I just sped it up. Like 2000%...
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post #24 of 90
3/26/13 at 8:28pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibuna View Post

Java, i'm running 2 of the HO18s from a EP4k
doing great so far,

Sibuna, are you running an EQ with the EP4000? Does it take unbalanced inputs? That was a feature of the nu6000dsp I liked. No clean box...
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post #25 of 90
3/26/13 at 8:44pm
I have the 2x4 Balanced MiniDSP running to the EP4K and it works spectacularly well!

Only issue is the MiniDSP does cut signal down a little bit, but not enough to prevent the EP4K from being driven to full output.
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post #26 of 90
3/27/13 at 3:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Java View Post

Sibuna, are you running an EQ with the EP4000? Does it take unbalanced inputs? That was a feature of the nu6000dsp I liked. No clean box...

not running any EQ yet, however ill likely get a miniDSP, the EP4k cant drive them to death unless you do something really stupid so im not worried about that part of it, i use RCA-XLR adapters on it as it does not have standard unbalanced inputs. it only has XLR and TRS inputs
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post #27 of 90
3/28/13 at 6:06pm
Thread Starter 
Amp Update

I pulled the trigger and ordered a NU6000 (non-DSP). I kept watching the due dates on the DSP version slip to April, May, and even June on some store sites. I'm also seeing the non-DSP starting to go out of stock in some stores.

I'm also going to go with a Mini-DSP. In the end, I will spend an extra $25 total over the NU6000DSP and probably have a better set up. And don't have to wait until June!! wink.gif

As far as the Mini-DSP, I'm thinking about getting the 2x4 unbalanced box: http://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-2x4

My rationale is that since the NU6000 takes an unbalance input, I can keep the signal unbalanced from the AVR -> Mini-DSP -> NU6000.

Thoughts?
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post #28 of 90
4/10/13 at 1:17pm
Thread Starter 
All Done

I'll post some build photos later, but I have finished the two subs.




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post #29 of 90
4/10/13 at 1:31pm
Thread Starter 
Initial Impressions

I hate to say, but I'm underwhelmed. I know I need to EQ the subs (miniDSP on it's way). I calibrated the subs with Audyssey MultEQ XT32 and thought I'd get close. Just not the punch I was expecting.

I know one of my challenges is dealing with the unbalance inputs. The NU6000 (not DSP) is supposed to handle unbalanced inputs. I can't find anything in manual or the web on what to do special on unbalance inputs. I set the input control (front panel dial) to 12 o'clock before calibrating. I'm thinking of pushing it higher (3 o'clock?) and recalibrating. Thoughts?

I'll break out REW soon and take some measurements. On that, do I go straight to the NU6000 with the inputs from REW or try to feed threw AVR? If AVR (TX-NR818), use auxiliary inputs? The AVR doesn't have analog (i.e., 5.1) inputs like my prior AVR.
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post #30 of 90
4/10/13 at 1:50pm
If you want to know the raw sub response without a crossover or EQ you can right into the amp from your sound card however be very careful with the gain until you determine how loud it will be.
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