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RSS460HO / DIY Sound Group Flat Pack Build - Page 3

post #61 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Java View Post

REW measurements are on my to-do list. Been too busy...


Cool. I'm curious to see what these subs can do. smile.gif
post #62 of 134
Thread Starter 
Update

I got all my "new stuff" last week and finally have some time to break out my REW set up and get to some measuring.

As far as the new stuff, I got:
  • Art Clean Box. To boost sub signal from AVR.
  • MiniDSP. To adjust freqs to compensate for sealed box.

I already connected the clean box and there is a huge improvement. Much more thump without bottoming out.

As far as the set up chain, below is the set up. As note, I'm unbalanced (and low voltage) until the clean box. From what I've read this may also fix a potential low voltage issue of the balanced miniDSP's

AVR -> MiniDSP -> Clean Box -> Nu6000 -> Subs.
post #63 of 134

Is the art clean box with the 20hz rolloff? I think it needs to be modified if you want it to be flat.

post #64 of 134
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrkazador View Post

Is the art clean box with the 20hz rolloff? I think it needs to be modified if you want it to be flat.

This is the CleanBox Pro. They supposedly solved the rolloff problem with the pro: http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-amps-high-pass-filters/64531-art-clean-box-pro.html#post580158
post #65 of 134
Thread Starter 
First Rew Charts

I'm a noob with REW, so not sure if I did correct. I tested the left and the right subs independently.

Looks like a dip in the mid 60's and a maybe a need to lift the lowest end? Try manually or let REW set the EQ via min-DSP?

post #66 of 134
Thread Starter 
Mini-DSP Settings

As always, I'm a noob with Mini-DSP, so hopefully I'm in the ball park on this.

I'm using the mini-dsp only for subs, so I'm using the input 1 & 2 for the left/right subs that go to the cleanbox pro and the amp.

Per below I input the eq setting from REW for the left (input 1) and the right (input 2).

Left Sub



Right Sub



As far as the output, I'm assuming I will use output 1 (left) and output 3 (right)

Output
post #67 of 134
Thread Starter 
Post Mini-DSP

I'm sure I did something wrong, but the post mini-DSP REW measurements look pretty close to the pre.

Thoughts?

Post
post #68 of 134
Quote:
I'm a noob with REW, so not sure if I did correct.

How are you feeding signal from REW to sub? Which mic are you using?
post #69 of 134
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

How are you feeding signal from REW to sub? Which mic are you using?

I used the EMM-6 Mic fed through a Tascam US122MKII to my Mac book.
post #70 of 134
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

How are you feeding signal from REW to sub? Which mic are you using?

I used the EMM-6 Mic fed through a Tascam US122MKII to my Mac book.
post #71 of 134
I have no experience using REW on mac and with the mic and sound card you are using. I use SB Live Pro and Rat Shack Analog spl meter and windows 7. Anyway, the process is the same. Did you calibrate your sound card through loopback connection? And also i was wondering if you loaded correction values of EMM-6 (IF ANY) into REW to apply correct offset in final readings especially in the low and ultra low frequency spectrum.
post #72 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Java View Post

Mini-DSP Settings

As always, I'm a noob with Mini-DSP, so hopefully I'm in the ball park on this.

I'm using the mini-dsp only for subs, so I'm using the input 1 & 2 for the left/right subs that go to the cleanbox pro and the amp.

Per below I input the eq setting from REW for the left (input 1) and the right (input 2).

Left Sub



Right Sub



As far as the output, I'm assuming I will use output 1 (left) and output 3 (right)

Output

If I am looking at this right are you using different EQ's for each sub? The only time you EQ subs separately is when they are playing different signals, an example would be the subs set-up as stereo subs. If both subs are connected to the LFE input then they are both playing the same signal and should be EQ'ed as one on the same channel.
The thing to do for multiple subs is set the delay (distance) and levels separately but then EQ as one, this is what Audyssey does with SubEQ HT.
post #73 of 134
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

If I am looking at this right are you using different EQ's for each sub? The only time you EQ subs separately is when they are playing different signals, an example would be the subs set-up as stereo subs. If both subs are connected to the LFE input then they are both playing the same signal and should be EQ'ed as one on the same channel.
The thing to do for multiple subs is set the delay (distance) and levels separately but then EQ as one, this is what Audyssey does with SubEQ HT.

Correct. I EQed each sub individually. I have MultEQ XT32 and "stereo" sub outs on my AVR (Onkyo TX-NR818). My understanding with my AVR is that it doesn't truly have independent sub channels and uses an internal "Y" connector.

Does it hurt anything to handle it like I did? Seems kind of odd to combine the signals and then split them back out.

Also, thoughts on how to calibrate in combo with Audyssey? Calibrate separately on the subs like I did then use Audyssey?

Thanks, for the input!
post #74 of 134
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

I have no experience using REW on mac and with the mic and sound card you are using. I use SB Live Pro and Rat Shack Analog spl meter and windows 7. Anyway, the process is the same. Did you calibrate your sound card through loopback connection? And also i was wondering if you loaded correction values of EMM-6 (IF ANY) into REW to apply correct offset in final readings especially in the low and ultra low frequency spectrum.

Yep. Used the calibration file that came with the mic and also calibrated my sound card.

Why all the questions on set up? Are my results looking funky?

Thanks!
post #75 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Java View Post

Correct. I EQed each sub individually. I have MultEQ XT32 and "stereo" sub outs on my AVR (Onkyo TX-NR818). My understanding with my AVR is that it doesn't truly have independent sub channels and uses an internal "Y" connector.

Does it hurt anything to handle it like I did? Seems kind of odd to combine the signals and then split them back out.

Also, thoughts on how to calibrate in combo with Audyssey? Calibrate separately on the subs like I did then use Audyssey?

Thanks, for the input!


you want to eq the subs as one. not separately
post #76 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Java View Post

Correct. I EQed each sub individually. I have MultEQ XT32 and "stereo" sub outs on my AVR (Onkyo TX-NR818). My understanding with my AVR is that it doesn't truly have independent sub channels and uses an internal "Y" connector.

Does it hurt anything to handle it like I did? Seems kind of odd to combine the signals and then split them back out.

Also, thoughts on how to calibrate in combo with Audyssey? Calibrate separately on the subs like I did then use Audyssey?

Thanks, for the input!

You can add separate delays (same as distance) to the subs and boost down low but from there do not add anymore EQ, let Audyssey XT32 EQ both subs. If your not happy with the results after Audyssey you can tweak the EQ with the MiniDSP but if you are on separate channels you will need to make equal cuts to both subs. If you have both subs on 1 channel of the MiniDSP then it is easy to make some tweaks to only a single channel. For an example say you still have a big peak in your response after XT32 at 50hz of 6db when you measure both subs at your listening position. If you have both subs on a single channel of the MiniDSP then it is simple enough to make a 6db cut at 50hz. If you have the subs on different channels then I would suggest making a 3db cut at 50hz on sub 1 and the same cut on sub 2 so the combined cut = 6db.

The problem when you look at the response and EQ subs playing the same channel separately is that once there signal is combined the response will change. I am sure you have heard that adding more subs can help to tame room modes, basically make a smoother response without EQ. That is why you have to run REW with ALL the subs in your system playing to see the combined response at your listening position. From there you have to EQ the response as a single channel, not individual channels since you will not be listening to them that way when you play music or movies.

I hope this made sense.
post #77 of 134
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

You can add separate delays (same as distance) to the subs and boost down low but from there do not add anymore EQ, let Audyssey XT32 EQ both subs. If your not happy with the results after Audyssey you can tweak the EQ with the MiniDSP but if you are on separate channels you will need to make equal cuts to both subs. If you have both subs on 1 channel of the MiniDSP then it is easy to make some tweaks to only a single channel. For an example say you still have a big peak in your response after XT32 at 50hz of 6db when you measure both subs at your listening position. If you have both subs on a single channel of the MiniDSP then it is simple enough to make a 6db cut at 50hz. If you have the subs on different channels then I would suggest making a 3db cut at 50hz on sub 1 and the same cut on sub 2 so the combined cut = 6db.

The problem when you look at the response and EQ subs playing the same channel separately is that once there signal is combined the response will change. I am sure you have heard that adding more subs can help to tame room modes, basically make a smoother response without EQ. That is why you have to run REW with ALL the subs in your system playing to see the combined response at your listening position. From there you have to EQ the response as a single channel, not individual channels since you will not be listening to them that way when you play music or movies.

I hope this made sense.

Yep. Makes total sense. Thanks very much for the in-depth input.

Two quick MiniDSP questions:

- Do you use the REW Auto EQ function?
- Does it matter which EQ section to use? You can use the EQ before and/or after the crossover.

Thanks, again!!
post #78 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Java View Post

Yep. Makes total sense. Thanks very much for the in-depth input.

Two quick MiniDSP questions:

- Do you use the REW Auto EQ function?
- Does it matter which EQ section to use? You can use the EQ before and/or after the crossover.

Thanks, again!!

I don't use a MiniDSP, I use a DCX2496 but I don't use the REW Auto function for it. I normally like to make my own changes, not saying REW is wrong though, never really used the auto EQ function.

As far as the crossover they are not brick walls so you can apply a little EQ past the crossover point. Normally if there are big dips at the crossover point then your speakers and subs may be out of phase and canceling each other out were they overlap. For this I would try reversing the polarity of your subwoofers and see if the dip has gone away which would mean they are now in phase with your speakers.

Glad I could help.
post #79 of 134
I would add equal boost down low to both and then run Audyssey. See what it looks like after that and tweak from there.

I didn't like what the auto EQ was doing but I don't have a lot of experience using my minidsp either. I am using only the mini. No Audyssey for now. Seemed to give me better measurements. I did run Audyssey so it could set the distance/phase I only have MultEQ though.
post #80 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

You can add separate delays (same as distance) to the subs and boost down low but from there do not add anymore EQ, let Audyssey XT32 EQ both subs. If your not happy with the results after Audyssey you can tweak the EQ with the MiniDSP but if you are on separate channels you will need to make equal cuts to both subs. If you have both subs on 1 channel of the MiniDSP then it is easy to make some tweaks to only a single channel. For an example say you still have a big peak in your response after XT32 at 50hz of 6db when you measure both subs at your listening position. If you have both subs on a single channel of the MiniDSP then it is simple enough to make a 6db cut at 50hz. If you have the subs on different channels then I would suggest making a 3db cut at 50hz on sub 1 and the same cut on sub 2 so the combined cut = 6db.

The problem when you look at the response and EQ subs playing the same channel separately is that once there signal is combined the response will change. I am sure you have heard that adding more subs can help to tame room modes, basically make a smoother response without EQ. That is why you have to run REW with ALL the subs in your system playing to see the combined response at your listening position. From there you have to EQ the response as a single channel, not individual channels since you will not be listening to them that way when you play music or movies.

I hope this made sense.

I have a newb question... If the subs are on one channel of the mini, how can you have the AVR set separate delays? Probably really obvious to everyone but me tongue.gif
post #81 of 134
he is talking about using the minidsp to set separate delays using two outputs from it. you can have one input from the AVR and split it to multiple outputs allowing separate control using the MiniDSP.
post #82 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

he is talking about using the minidsp to set separate delays using two outputs from it. you can have one input from the AVR and split it to multiple outputs allowing separate control using the MiniDSP.

Thanks Brian, I see that I misread mjaudio's post, gonna get myself some more coffee now smile.gif
post #83 of 134
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

I would add equal boost down low to both and then run Audyssey. See what it looks like after that and tweak from there.

I didn't like what the auto EQ was doing but I don't have a lot of experience using my minidsp either. I am using only the mini. No Audyssey for now. Seemed to give me better measurements. I did run Audyssey so it could set the distance/phase I only have MultEQ though.

Thanks, Brian.

Are you not using Audyssey at all or just not for sub EQ?

If my son ever lets me back in my theater (Xbox/Minecraft), my plans are to re-REW my subs as one, use auto-EQ from REW on Mini-DSP, then try to use then re-calibrate audyssey.

Make sense?
post #84 of 134
I'm not using Audyssey at all right now. I might try to trick into not EQing the subs.

Add the low end boost before anything. The auto EQ won't do it from what I remember. But then it wanted to replace what I had so maybe I wasn't doing it right.
post #85 of 134
Thread Starter 
"Dual" REW Measurement"

Here is the measurement with both subs going through on channel. I used the mono mode on the amp.

Any tips from the REW crowd? I'm sending a sub tone up to 1k. That cool? Anything else?

post #86 of 134
Change your horizontal axis to like 200 or so. Then try inverting the polarity on each sub one at a time to see if that 65Hz dip improves. Run the sweep to 200Hz.
post #87 of 134
Thread Starter 
MiniDSP Confusion

I'm still learning MiniDSP, so I'm sure I missed something obvious, but the EQ settings don't seem to have an effect on the REW measurements.

For the DSP, I loaded the rew autoEQ setting before the crossover and loaded the low end boost after the crossover. The only reason I did this was because the autoEQ settings were advanced (biquad) and I wanted to do the low end boost in "basic". By the way, can anyone point me to a thread covering how to do the low end boost on a sealed sub?


REW Auto-EQ settings


Low end boost.


Results.


There is a little movement 50-90 hz, but none below. I tried this many different way (taking the low shelf gain up to 16 db) and still no movement.

Thoughts? And, yes, before you ask, the Mini-DSP sync was confirmed, so it was receiving the updates.

Thanks
post #88 of 134
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

Change your horizontal axis to like 200 or so. Then try inverting the polarity on each sub one at a time to see if that 65Hz dip improves. Run the sweep to 200Hz.

Thanks, Brian. Will trying it later in the day. Earthquake level testing isn't a good way to start a Sunday morning. tongue.gif

By the way, per my earlier comment on not being impressed, I am impressed with the subs. Once I added the clean box, the subs rock the house (literally). Now I have to tame the beast.

I follow everything you said except individual polarity. Since I'm using only one channel in MiniDSP, I can't change the polarity individually. Is this literally swapping +/- on each sub?

Thanks, again, for the help!!
post #89 of 134
That would do it as well.
post #90 of 134
Try just the boost first. Experiment with polarity to try and get rid of that dip. then run Audyssey . No REW auto EQ.
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