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Why couldn't I feel the T-Rex's Stomp from Jurassic Park with one Sub and another I could (energy...

post #1 of 33
1/13/13 at 4:22pm
Thread Starter 
Long question but I was at BB in their theater room. They had an 8" Energy ESW-C8 and they had a B&W ASW608.

Played a scene in Tron, the music soundtrack part of the scene (where the first fight is), sounded fine, could feel the bass, shook things. But actual things striking objects was kind of week, imo.

Went to Jurrasic Park, the T-Rex scene. Energy, couldn't even barely feel the stomp or barely hear it. The B&W, moved the room.

I don't understand. The Energy is capable of moving the room. It did to the soundtrack bass in Tron, but was weak as a kitten in the "important" T-Rex scene. If I had brought that home, I would have died that I paid that but couldn't feel it.

I looked at the specs:

B&W:

Frequency Range -6dB at 23Hz and 25/140Hz adjustable (EQ at A)
Freqnency Response ±3dB 32Hz – 40/140Hz adjustable (EQ at A)
-6dB at 23Hz (position A)
-6dB at 28Hz (position B)
-6dB at 36Hz (position C)

Energy:

Frequency Response 36Hz-180Hz
Variable Low Pass Filter 40Hz-150Hz
(couldn't find anything for Frequency Range with the Energy)

Does this mean the T-Rex walking was below 36Hz? But above 32Hz? I thought the response meant the actually "moving" of the air but the range meant what the subwoofer could "hear" or react to. I tried to read and understand....

Thanks for help. I could never buy that energy now.
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post #2 of 33
1/13/13 at 4:28pm
Sounds like the Energy has plenty of output in the mid-bass region - say, 60-80Hz - but relatively little output below its -3dB(?) point of 36Hz, where the stomps are; while the B&W has good output down to at least 32Hz, and usable output below that.

If you like what the B&W can do for you, just imagine how you might like a $499 SVS PB-1000 that will play flat (-3dB) down to 19Hz.... cool.gif
Edited by eljaycanuck - 1/13/13 at 4:34pm
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post #3 of 33
1/13/13 at 7:02pm
I wouldnt buy any "sub" from Best Buy, you can get way better going the internet direct way, there is so many options, you can get the Bic F12, or two Velodyne VX-11 for like $230 shipped.
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post #4 of 33
1/13/13 at 7:39pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshjp View Post

I wouldnt buy any "sub" from Best Buy, you can get way better going the internet direct way, there is so many options, you can get the Bic F12, or two Velodyne VX-11 for like $230 shipped.

I wouldn't buy it. It's the only place I have where I can go hear a sub. I was hoping it would give me an idea. I think it helped. I do wonder how the subs you mentioned would compare to the B&W I heard.

edit: I even had a guy that might sell me a Mirage PS-10 for around $50. Not the Omni S10, but maybe it's better than my HTIB "sub." It's old though and has been in storage for six months and there's no way for me to hear it to see if it clips or any of that, so I didn't buy it.
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post #5 of 33
1/13/13 at 9:19pm
Thread Starter 
Do you think those subs are as good as the b and w I saw?
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post #6 of 33
1/13/13 at 9:23pm
how much do you want to spend? I agree with the one poster to look into the SVS PB1000, or a Rythmic .

Athanasios
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post #7 of 33
1/14/13 at 5:01am
Quote:
Do you think those subs are as good as the b and w I saw?
According to the owner's manual (PDF), the PS-10 is rated at 100W (RMS?) / 400W peak, and extends to 28Hz @ -3dB. I'd pay $50 for that sub, and buy it over the B&W.
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post #8 of 33
1/15/13 at 9:44pm
Thread Starter 
Even though it is old? Wont the amp be at end of life?
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post #9 of 33
1/16/13 at 4:30am
Quote:
Even though it is old?
Yup. If it's in reasonably-good (or better) shape and, after a proper demo workout, it appears to be working well, I'd buy it for $50.
Quote:
Wont the amp be at end of life?
I don't know. What's the life of that amp?
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post #10 of 33
1/16/13 at 6:26am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

Yup. If it's in reasonably-good (or better) shape and, after a proper demo workout, it appears to be working well, I'd buy it for $50.
I don't know. What's the life of that amp?

They guy doesn't have it hooked up. It's in storage for past six months.
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post #11 of 33
1/16/13 at 6:31am
Quote:
They guy doesn't have it hooked up. It's in storage for past six months.
Well, if he's interested in selling it to you and you're interested in buying it from him, tell him you want to demo it first.
- If he says 'no', you walk away.
- If he says 'OK', he takes the sub out of storage, you give it a good demo workout, and then you decide whether or not to buy it.

If he's not really interested in selling it to you, or you're not really interested in buying it from him, there's not much point to discussing this sub. smile.gif
Edited by eljaycanuck - 1/16/13 at 6:44am
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post #12 of 33
1/16/13 at 6:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

Well, if he's interested in selling it to you and you're interested in buying it from himt, tell him you want to demo it first.
- If he says 'no', you walk away.
- If he says 'OK', he takes the sub out of storage, you give it a good demo workout, and then you decide whether or not to buy it.

If he's not really interested in selling it to you, or you're not really interested in buying it from him, there's not much point to discussing this sub. smile.gif

True. The car salesman needs to sell inventory worse than your need to buy. Demo is a must.
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post #13 of 33
1/16/13 at 7:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by smudge981 View Post

True. The car salesman needs to sell inventory worse than your need to buy. Demo is a must.

I buy cars from car lots as I hate to deal with buying from the private sector and if I'm buying from a car lot, I expect them to take what we have in trade as I don't want to deal with selling the car we drove up in. The point, buying used from the public isn't for everybody and sometimes, to get what one wants, they have to pay more then they want and take less in trade-in for what they do have just to get what they want, home. My wife's not happy with my giving stuff away as opposed to selling it but I don't want to deal with the emotions trying to sell something used causes. Example, when I have a six hundred dollar item and some toad wants to offer me fifty bucks. I don't do dicker, if someone want's to buy what I have to offer, here it is. If they don't, there's the door. One can't strike up to many deals with that type of attitude so I buy new, give stuff away and my wife sighs a lot as the sun rises on another beautiful day in the neighborhood. tongue.gif

The point, buying and selling used, isn't for everybody.
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post #14 of 33
1/16/13 at 7:22am
Quote:
The point, buying and selling used, isn't for everybody.
Which doesn't change the fact that if the vendor is interested in selling his sub, he should make it available for demo-ing; and if the buyer is interested in buying the sub, he should be able to demo it.
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post #15 of 33
1/16/13 at 7:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

Which doesn't change the fact that if the vendor is interested in selling his sub, he should make it available for demo-ing; and if the buyer is interested in buying the sub, he should be able to demo it.

In a perfect world, absolutely. And anybody who wants is welcome to go through the effort. I'm simply pointing out that buying used on the private market has it's foibles and isn't like buying from a business and because of this, one needs to take into consideration what their emotional tolerance levels are for this type of activity. Just saying.
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post #16 of 33
1/16/13 at 8:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by likemovies View Post

Long question but I was at BB in their theater room. They had an 8" Energy ESW-C8 and they had a B&W ASW608.

Played a scene in Tron, the music soundtrack part of the scene (where the first fight is), sounded fine, could feel the bass, shook things. But actual things striking objects was kind of week, imo.

Went to Jurrasic Park, the T-Rex scene. Energy, couldn't even barely feel the stomp or barely hear it. The B&W, moved the room.

I don't understand. The Energy is capable of moving the room. It did to the soundtrack bass in Tron, but was weak as a kitten in the "important" T-Rex scene. If I had brought that home, I would have died that I paid that but couldn't feel it.

I looked at the specs:

B&W:

---snip---

Energy:

---snip---

Does this mean the T-Rex walking was below 36Hz? But above 32Hz? I thought the response meant the actually "moving" of the air but the range meant what the subwoofer could "hear" or react to. I tried to read and understand....

Like any performance based hobby, in the case of subwoofers it's about capability, how deep can the driver dig and with how much authority. An eight inch subwoofer is like putting a Prius on a drag strip. As long as properly classed, it will do fine. Once you up the classes, quickly the Prius falls to the back of the performance based pack. That's not to say a Prius is invalid. It's to say that one needs to take into consideration, is the choice of vehicle, up to the performance standards of the class it's being compared to. Subwoofers, same thing. What are the expectations and is the user of the sub, keeping their expectations inline with the subwoofer's capabilities?

The point, is the buyer expecting a $300.00 - $500.00 subwoofer to perform like four 15", co-located subs?
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post #17 of 33
1/16/13 at 9:08am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Like any performance based hobby, in the case of subwoofers it's about capability, how deep can the driver dig and with how much authority. An eight inch subwoofer is like putting a Prius on a drag strip. As long as properly classed, it will do fine. Once you up the classes, quickly the Prius falls to the back of the performance based pack. That's not to say a Prius is invalid. It's to say that one needs to take into consideration, is the choice of vehicle, up to the performance standards of the class it's being compared to. Subwoofers, same thing. What are the expectations and is the user of the sub, keeping their expectations inline with the subwoofer's capabilities?

The point, is the buyer expecting a $300.00 - $500.00 subwoofer to perform like four 15", co-located subs?

They were both 8" speakers.
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post #18 of 33
1/16/13 at 9:29am
Both that B&W subwoofer and Energy subwoofer are very weak and not worth a whole lot. It wouldn't take much to outperform both of those. Anything from SVS would destroy those subwoofers and open up a whole new realm when it comes to what you've been missing.

I'd say just pass on that Mirage subwoofer and save up on something else.

This is the B&W subwoofer? http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Bowers+and+Wilkins+-+8%22+200-Watt+Powered+Subwoofer+-+Painted+Soft+Touch+Black/1290273.p?id=1218247966106&skuId=1290273

For that price I would look at :

http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/ported-box/pb-1000
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-2mk4.html

Bumping your budget to alittle under $800 could get you crazy good performance from Power Sound Audio and step up to HSU and SVS's next best models.
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post #19 of 33
1/16/13 at 9:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by likemovies View Post

They were both 8" speakers.

In understanding, as I posted, as long as the subs are compared to subs that are similar in class, it all works. I also understand, based on the lament of your comments, you're expecting more than either of these subs are capable of. Unfortunately, based on your OP, even a pair of eight inch subs won't get you where you want to go. As a form of encouragement, my opinion, if you stick within the limitations of eight inch subwoofers, in the final, you're not going be a happy camper. Just saying.

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 1/16/13 at 10:21am
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post #20 of 33
1/16/13 at 10:02am
Your asking a 8" woofer (little hatchback) to do the work of a large full size pickup. Just isn't going to work out.
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post #21 of 33
1/16/13 at 11:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by smudge981 View Post

True. The car salesman needs to sell inventory worse than your need to buy. Demo is a must.

The guy is selling something for $50. Would you invite a stranger off craigslist to your home to take up your time to maybe sell something for $50? I know I wouldn't.


There's a risk bargain hunters need to take to get the bargain sometimes. I've listed things on craigslist and have to chuckle often at the redonkulous lowball offers some people make on things.

It is nice to be able to tell some people to go pound sand at times though, since I cannot do this in my real job.


"No soup for you!"
Edited by quattroatl - 1/16/13 at 12:28pm
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post #22 of 33
1/16/13 at 3:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by quattroatl View Post

The guy is selling something for $50. Would you invite a stranger off craigslist to your home to take up your time to maybe sell something for $50? I know I wouldn't.


There's a risk bargain hunters need to take to get the bargain sometimes. I've listed things on craigslist and have to chuckle often at the redonkulous lowball offers some people make on things.

It is nice to be able to tell some people to go pound sand at times though, since I cannot do this in my real job.


"No soup for you!"

It's been "buyer beware" as long as I can remember. I've purchased many an item from Craigslist with nary a problem. I've also sold an item or two, too. Granted, it's not everyone's cup of tea. One just has to keep their wits about them and use common sense when being either party. If I buy a used piece of furniture, I check for structural stability and fabric tears. If I buy a used car, I'm going to check for mechanical defects by either taking it for a spin or a trip to my mechanic. If I'm interested in a sub, I'm going to ask for a sound demo. I know I personally wouldn't buy a used sub without one. If the seller can't do this, the sub should not be on the market to the general public.
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post #23 of 33
1/16/13 at 4:41pm
Quote:
The guy is selling something for $50. Would you invite a stranger off craigslist to your home to take up your time to maybe sell something for $50?
Yup.

If you're selling something for $50 that needs to be demo'd, you have to be prepared to demo it. That - in addition to not misrepresenting what you're selling - is part of your obligation as a vendor. Part of your obligation as a buyer is to demo something only if you're seriously considering buying it; otherwise, you're just a jerk wasting someone's time.

If buddy's got a sub in storage that he seriously wants to sell and the OP is interested in buying it, buddy had better get that sub out of storage and demo the damned thing. If the OP has no intention of actually buying it regardless of how good it looks and/or performs, he shouldn't be bothering the vendor for a demo.
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post #24 of 33
1/17/13 at 4:05pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

Yup.

If you're selling something for $50 that needs to be demo'd, you have to be prepared to demo it. That - in addition to not misrepresenting what you're selling - is part of your obligation as a vendor. Part of your obligation as a buyer is to demo something only if you're seriously considering buying it; otherwise, you're just a jerk wasting someone's time.

If buddy's got a sub in storage that he seriously wants to sell and the OP is interested in buying it, buddy had better get that sub out of storage and demo the damned thing. If the OP has no intention of actually buying it regardless of how good it looks and/or performs, he shouldn't be bothering the vendor for a demo.

I'd buy it if I could hear it and if it did what I wanted. It does 28Hz which I don't know if that's low enough. Maybe not tripod WoW low but low enough for Iron Man sonic booms, Hulk, T-Rex. I don't know. I don't supposed I'd call him a "vendor." And people often buy things like this from garage sales. Sometimes you take a chance but my main holdback was that it was in storage and I could hear how low it was going to go. After talking to the guy, he didn't seem like the kind of guy you'd ask to demo it. He just wants rid of it. I'm sure it was nice back in the day but.....

It so hard to find speakers you can demo anymore, at least around here. You have frys and bestbuy. That's it. Sure, there are Home Theater stores, I guess mom and pop, not a chain. But I can't go in there to listen to a set of Paradigm's knowing good and well I'm never going to buy them. I only want to hear them to see if I can find a good pair used. If I go to a big store, I feel a lot less guilty smile.gif.

I've sold speakers in the past and let people hear them. I don't know I would spend too much without doing that. I might have done these if it were regular speakers but not a sub.
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post #25 of 33
1/17/13 at 4:08pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by quattroatl View Post

The guy is selling something for $50. Would you invite a stranger off craigslist to your home to take up your time to maybe sell something for $50? I know I wouldn't.


There's a risk bargain hunters need to take to get the bargain sometimes. I've listed things on craigslist and have to chuckle often at the redonkulous lowball offers some people make on things.

It is nice to be able to tell some people to go pound sand at times though, since I cannot do this in my real job.


"No soup for you!"

I qualify folks as best I can before I let them in. I don't like it, but in a former life I was pretty good at it. I have bought speakers without listening to them before. Thankfully, I didn't get burned. Twice. I'd probably do it again if the price were low enough. I take chances. Sub. Nope. Passed up one at Goodwill the other day for the same reason. No way I'm getting saddle with a boat anchor.
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post #26 of 33
1/17/13 at 4:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by likemovies View Post


It so hard to find speakers you can demo anymore, at least around here. You have frys and bestbuy. That's it. Sure, there are Home Theater stores, I guess mom and pop, not a chain. But I can't go in there to listen to a set of Paradigm's knowing good and well I'm never going to buy them. I only want to hear them to see if I can find a good pair used. If I go to a big store, I feel a lot less guilty smile.gif.

I've sold speakers in the past and let people hear them. I don't know I would spend too much without doing that. I might have done these if it were regular speakers but not a sub.

ID brands realize that people want to demo the products, that is why they have such great return/trial periods. Get the subwoofer, try it out in your OWN room not a showroom or out in the Best Buy floor (which isn't going to tell you anything) if your happy keep it and enjoy, if not send it back and they will refund the purchase price minus shipping. Most of the time the shipping isn't very much to send back and sometimes a company COULD let you send it back free, if you ask nicely or they see your a serious customer. Some will go the extra mile.
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post #27 of 33
2/8/13 at 6:47pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

Yup.

If you're selling something for $50 that needs to be demo'd, you have to be prepared to demo it. That - in addition to not misrepresenting what you're selling - is part of your obligation as a vendor. Part of your obligation as a buyer is to demo something only if you're seriously considering buying it; otherwise, you're just a jerk wasting someone's time.

If buddy's got a sub in storage that he seriously wants to sell and the OP is interested in buying it, buddy had better get that sub out of storage and demo the damned thing. If the OP has no intention of actually buying it regardless of how good it looks and/or performs, he shouldn't be bothering the vendor for a demo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by likemovies View Post

I qualify folks as best I can before I let them in. I don't like it, but in a former life I was pretty good at it. I have bought speakers without listening to them before. Thankfully, I didn't get burned. Twice. I'd probably do it again if the price were low enough. I take chances. Sub. Nope. Passed up one at Goodwill the other day for the same reason. No way I'm getting saddle with a boat anchor.

Let this be a lesson. I bought it and got burned. The driver is shot. Now I'm not too upset because I got a lot of speakers with it. And one of those needs a crossover (or at least a capacitor). Still, I got six speakers that are really nice, all of it, including the non-working for $125. I am confident I can repair the one messed up speaker. The sub rattles. After testing, I have determined it is the driver. I removed it from the enclosure, rattles. Ok. I still don't know if I want it though because when it does run it is so boomy I get a headache.

I probably wouldn't have bought any of it had I listened, BUT, I am happy with the regular speakers, and had that broken sub not been there and I only heard the speakers, I might have still bought them. They're really nice and clear and crisp. Axiom, older, but nice.
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post #28 of 33
2/8/13 at 6:54pm
Thread Starter 
And, This will be my last crappy sub. I'm not getting junk any more. Only the famous hsu, psb, or something like that. I hate that boomy rumble that never stops during a movie. Very annoying.
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post #29 of 33
2/8/13 at 8:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by likemovies View Post

And, This will be my last crappy sub. I'm not getting junk any more. Only the famous hsu, psb, or something like that. I hate that boomy rumble that never stops during a movie. Very annoying.

and welcome to the club... cool.gif
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post #30 of 33
4/21/13 at 7:58am
Why not go back to your Axiom dealer for a sub to match your speakers?
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers › Why couldn't I feel the T-Rex's Stomp from Jurassic Park with one Sub and another I could (energy b&w)?