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Panasonic ZT60 Plasma at CES 2013 - Page 3

post #61 of 358
1/20/13 at 8:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by boomerguy View Post

I disagree. There is a market "sweet spot at somewhere between $2500 to $3000. Panasonic is clearlt aiming this at the consumer market as opposed to the "prosumer" or professional market, where the price points are higher. The visual differences are such that deciding between the ztt60/65 ot the vt55/65 will be a wash for most consumers. Those people will happily get what they deem to be the "same" picture at the lowered price points for the vt series, leaving the zt series dangling out there for those of us who actually take pleasure and/or comfort in having a quality, leading edge product. (Assuming these palenls live up to the current hype after more thouough hands-on testing and reports from folks who've actually bought the things for home use. Time will tell>) My worry is that Panasonic has come up with a great product but that not enough people will buy the things to help the company get out of the selfp0-imposed doldrums it is currently in.

Agree to disagree then. There is plenty of market out there above $3000.
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post #62 of 358
1/21/13 at 8:06am
Same here.......until I actually see one of these in person.....and get to see/test it out for my self my 60" KURO stays where it is.

Unless of course Scott Wilkinson reviews one of these ZT's and says that it blows the Elite Kuros out of the water. wink.gifwink.giftongue.gif

I really trust Scott he is one of the few that is very objective in his reportings and findings.

Paul
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post #63 of 358
1/21/13 at 1:21pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hidefpaul View Post

Same here.......until I actually see one of these in person.....and get to see/test it out for my self my 60" KURO stays where it is.

Unless of course Scott Wilkinson reviews one of these ZT's and says that it blows the Elite Kuros out of the water. wink.gifwink.giftongue.gif

I really trust Scott he is one of the few that is very objective in his reportings and findings.

Paul

Thanks Paul! I do my utmost to do exactly that. I can't wait to put a ZT60 through its paces!

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post #64 of 358
1/21/13 at 5:51pm
When is pricing typically announced each year?
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post #65 of 358
1/21/13 at 8:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jh901 View Post

When is pricing typically announced each year?

After costs are finalized and production begins. Probably within the next two months, maybe three. That said, they can change up until a few weeks before they hit the stores.
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post #66 of 358
1/22/13 at 3:52pm
Sorry to be the cat amongst the pigeons here but i REALLY dont get the plasma thing sorry to say....i bought a 2012 plasma that was faulty i asked for help on these forums and apparently the panel was kaput...not good for first impressions so im so glad they agreed to give me the money back. I still stuck with panasonic and bought a DT47 and ok the blacks are being honest a bit poor at night but we have lamps on or low lights in the living room so its not that bad however one thing im very impressed with and is No1 on my list for tv is panel speed and boy this TV is a quick as anything displaying no lag or artifacts with blurr which is simply amazing. This will be my last LCD until i can afford a pana OLED in a couple of years so im good till then.
TcM
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post #67 of 358
1/22/13 at 4:13pm
In order for you to "get" it all you have to do is watch a non-defective plasma. God knows how much I want to like LCD (I own two mid-level LCDs and three Kuros) and even after two years I still can't stand the motion-blur, dark-grey "black", and soul-crunching off-angle colour shift.
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post #68 of 358
1/22/13 at 4:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThundercatMan View Post

Sorry to be the cat amongst the pigeons here but i REALLY dont get the plasma thing sorry to say....i bought a 2012 plasma that was faulty i asked for help on these forums and apparently the panel was kaput...not good for first impressions so im so glad they agreed to give me the money back. I still stuck with panasonic and bought a DT47 and ok the blacks are being honest a bit poor at night but we have lamps on or low lights in the living room so its not that bad however one thing im very impressed with and is No1 on my list for tv is panel speed and boy this TV is a quick as anything displaying no lag or artifacts with blurr which is simply amazing. This will be my last LCD until i can afford a pana OLED in a couple of years so im good till then.
TcM

So you rule out an entire display technology because you received one defective FP? Seems a bit silly. But to each his own.
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post #69 of 358
1/22/13 at 4:28pm

If I was in the mmarket for a new plasma this one would be it :)

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post #70 of 358
1/22/13 at 10:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThundercatMan View Post

Sorry to be the cat amongst the pigeons here but i REALLY dont get the plasma thing sorry to say....i bought a 2012 plasma that was faulty i asked for help on these forums and apparently the panel was kaput...not good for first impressions so im so glad they agreed to give me the money back. I still stuck with panasonic and bought a DT47 and ok the blacks are being honest a bit poor at night but we have lamps on or low lights in the living room so its not that bad however one thing im very impressed with and is No1 on my list for tv is panel speed and boy this TV is a quick as anything displaying no lag or artifacts with blurr which is simply amazing. This will be my last LCD until i can afford a pana OLED in a couple of years so im good till then.
TcM

You're going to be totally screwed once you get your first DOA LCD. You won't have any other type of FP to buy. Hopefully OLED is out by then...
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post #71 of 358
1/23/13 at 5:36am
How common is a DOA LCD compared to Plasma? Not as common. Plasmas are fragile by their very nature. Returning a DOA plasma is an ordeal since stores know there's a significant risk it was the customer who cracked the panel, often the leak is just a tiny hairline crack but the whole panel is ruined. With LED panels, stores will just swap the set out NQA. I had a similar experience as Thudercatman - Bought a Panasonic GT, then the panel broke and I replaced it with a Vizio 3D passive LCD which I am much happier with. 'Space' movies don't have the deep blacks of the plasma, but 90% of content looks better IMO and there are none of the plethora of issues that come with plasma: They act as space heaters, experience brightness shifts when attempting to display all-white scenes, flicker, are sensitive to image retention, and they are fragile. In a nutshell, not worth the hassle to me. I'd much rather get a projector.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speakerphile View Post

You're going to be totally screwed once you get your first DOA LCD. You won't have any other type of FP to buy. Hopefully OLED is out by then...

Edited by imagic - 1/23/13 at 6:03am
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post #72 of 358
1/23/13 at 6:42am
Hahahaha! Where did you get your info? The descripion of plasma you mentioned have not been a plasma issue for more thaan 8 years! smile.gif. In fact I encounter larger percentage of DOA LCD shipments than plasma (based on the stories from all the stores and clients that I calibrate/setup/design.
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post #73 of 358
1/23/13 at 6:42am
Hahahaha! Where did you get your info? The descripion of plasma you mentioned have not been a plasma issue for more thaan 8 years! smile.gif. In fact I encounter larger percentage of DOA LCD shipments than plasma (based on the stories from all the stores and clients that I calibrate/setup/design.
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post #74 of 358
1/23/13 at 7:07am
I can walk into any showroom and point out all the plasmas due to the flicker. All of them. If someone is immune to it great, but it exists - because fundamentally, plasma sets have to strobe to produce an image. I know image retention is still an issue, it certainly was on the 2011 Panasonic GT I had and it's also discussed all the time. Of course they emit heat, plasmas are power-limited for that exact reason. The positives remain - pure blacks, excellent color, fast response... but so do the negatives.
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Hahahaha! Where did you get your info? The descripion of plasma you mentioned have not been a plasma issue for more thaan 8 years! smile.gif. In fact I encounter larger percentage of DOA LCD shipments than plasma (based on the stories from all the stores and clients that I calibrate/setup/design.

Edited by imagic - 1/23/13 at 7:14am
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post #75 of 358
1/23/13 at 7:18am
Your eyes must be very acute then, I can't see the 2500 Hz plasma flicker. But at the same time how can't you see the LCD 960 Hz flicker?

Also calibrated Sony XBR 65" vs Pana 65VT50, the power consumption difference is only 57 watts. So essentially the plasma is only warmer than the LCD by no more than a 60w bulb, nowhere near that space heater you mentioned above.
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post #76 of 358
1/23/13 at 7:29am
Better black levels again!! So this means Image Retention, flicker, bluriness and not so great processing will be even worse on the ZT than it was on the VT50. Panny seems to improve their panels and listen to customer feedback but it seems it's always something as een the banding is bad on all their sets from like 2010. Hopefully all these issues are fixed and each new "60" line like the S,ST,VT AND ZT(which will be
Out of my range) but looking at the s and st lines and hope they are great. I'm use to the nice inky blacks of my Pioneer but it also is nice and sharp and perfectly bright. So hoping panny can fix their issues especially the IR or it looks like Sammy is taking it again this year due to their better motion and they are improving blacks as well(not like they are bad cuz their e7000/8000 have great blacks just not as deep as te VT. But it will be tough if Sammy excels in blacks gets rid of buzz then thy will be king.
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post #77 of 358
1/23/13 at 7:30am
Plasmas flicker, some more than others. It's easy to Google, some people are sensitive to it. Any discussion of plasma flicker needs to be based around the sub field refresh rate - 600hz - and what plasmas have to do from there to modulate brightness. Yes I do see LCD flicker on occasion but rarely because most screens are now lit by LED, not fluorescent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Your eyes must be very acute then, I can't see the 2500 Hz plasma flicker. But at the same time how can't you see the LCD 960 Hz flicker?

Also calibrated Sony XBR 65" vs Pana 65VT50, the power consumption difference is only 57 watts. So essentially the plasma is only warmer than the LCD by no more than a 60w bulb, nowhere near that space heater you mentioned above.

Edited by imagic - 1/23/13 at 7:49am
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post #78 of 358
1/23/13 at 10:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Plasmas flicker, some more than others. It's easy to Google, some people are sensitive to it. Any discussion of plasma flicker needs to be based around the sub field refresh rate - 600hz - and what plasmas have to do from there to modulate brightness. Yes I do see LCD flicker on occasion but rarely because most screens are now lit by LED, not fluorescent.

I'm sensitive to the horribly inaccurate color and abysmal motion processing of LED's. This I do know.
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post #79 of 358
1/23/13 at 10:13am
dub king... I think you're on the wrong thread...
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post #80 of 358
1/23/13 at 10:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

How common is a DOA LCD compared to Plasma? Not as common. Plasmas are fragile by their very nature. Returning a DOA plasma is an ordeal since stores know there's a significant risk it was the customer who cracked the panel, often the leak is just a tiny hairline crack but the whole panel is ruined. With LED panels, stores will just swap the set out NQA. I had a similar experience as Thudercatman - Bought a Panasonic GT, then the panel broke and I replaced it with a Vizio 3D passive LCD which I am much happier with. 'Space' movies don't have the deep blacks of the plasma, but 90% of content looks better IMO and there are none of the plethora of issues that come with plasma: They act as space heaters, experience brightness shifts when attempting to display all-white scenes, flicker, are sensitive to image retention, and they are fragile. In a nutshell, not worth the hassle to me. I'd much rather get a projector.

I was not specifically addressing physical damage, but since you bring it up, cracked panels are extremely uncommon with either technology. I would consider a cracked panel 95% of the time to do with mis-handling. Whether that is on the part of a store or a customer, I'll leave that up to you, but quite frankly it doesn't matter. Also, LED/LCD's are pretty fragile when it comes to kids banging on them or throwing things at them. Much more so than with a plasma panel.
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post #81 of 358
1/23/13 at 10:25am
Right on, I see you have much (basically infinitely) more experience than I do with the retail and install end of things. When I get a chance to check out a ZT60 I will. If I find a plasma that truly has none of the flaws I discussed - to the extent that I cannot detect them with ease - I'd buy it. Probably next year, when it goes on clearance... but I'd buy it. My guess is I'll still end up with a DLP projector to fulfill my need for a 'cinematic' screen. No kids, so I don't have to worry about objects being tossed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speakerphile View Post

I was not specifically addressing physical damage, but since you bring it up, cracked panels are extremely uncommon with either technology. I would consider a cracked panel 95% of the time to do with mis-handling. Whether that is on the part of a store or a customer, I'll leave that up to you, but quite frankly it doesn't matter. Also, LED/LCD's are pretty fragile when it comes to kids banging on them or throwing things at them. Much more so than with a plasma panel.

Edited by imagic - 1/23/13 at 11:34am
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post #82 of 358
1/23/13 at 11:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

In order for you to "get" it all you have to do is watch a non-defective plasma. God knows how much I want to like LCD (I own two mid-level LCDs and three Kuros) and even after two years I still can't stand the motion-blur, dark-grey "black", and soul-crunching off-angle colour shift.

Not to mention Casino looks like Days of our lives.. no thanks.
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post #83 of 358
1/23/13 at 11:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

I can walk into any showroom and point out all the plasmas due to the flicker. All of them. If someone is immune to it great, but it exists - because fundamentally, plasma sets have to strobe to produce an image. I know image retention is still an issue, it certainly was on the 2011 Panasonic GT I had and it's also discussed all the time. Of course they emit heat, plasmas are power-limited for that exact reason. The positives remain - pure blacks, excellent color, fast response... but so do the negatives.

I have never experience "flicker" on my Kuro. So I don't know what it is.
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post #84 of 358
1/23/13 at 12:48pm
It must be psychological because although the frame rate of the VT50 is 96Hz, the refresh rate is at 2,500 Hz. Impossible to be seen by anyone and I'm extremely sensitive in seeing flickers from CFL bulbs and single-chip DLP
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post #85 of 358
1/23/13 at 1:01pm
You should be glad you are not sensitive to it, but stay away from saying it's psychological. We're talking about a visual artifact that is unambiguous to me and to others who are sensitive to it. No psychology... this is not a discussion of sound. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1214671/plasma-flicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

It must be psychological because although the frame rate of the VT50 is 96Hz, the refresh rate is at 2,500 Hz. Impossible to be seen by anyone and I'm extremely sensitive in seeing flickers from CFL bulbs and single-chip DLP
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post #86 of 358
1/23/13 at 1:07pm
It IS psychological. It is impossible that you don't see flicker from an LCD (they use backlights scanning at only max 480 Hz) yet you can see the plasma flicker at 2,500 Hz.
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post #87 of 358
1/23/13 at 1:12pm
PS: what you may "see" as flicker may be phosphor trails which is a different type of artifact inherent to plasma just like motion-trail being an artifact inherent to any LCD panel.
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post #88 of 358
1/23/13 at 6:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Yes I do see LCD flicker on occasion but rarely because most screens are now lit by LED, not fluorescent.

1. There is hardly any plasma that still refreshes at 600 Hz except for the entry level ones yet you claim you see ALL plasma flicker. The phosphor refresh goes up to 2,500 Hz (or in the case of ZT series, 3,000 Hz)

2. LCD use LED lighting BUT they do backlight scanning (turning on and off) at frequencies between 120 Hz (in the case of 240 Hz XR or CMR) to the max of 480 Hz (in the case of 960 Hz XR or CMR)

Based on your logic, you should then see MORE flicker on the LCD panels due to the max flicker rate at 480 Hz as opposed to the 2,500 Hz flicker rate on plasmas. Your explanation and your experience are 100% polar opposite of each other's technology.

You prefer LCD, that's fine, but don't state the illogical to strengthen your argument. This is the first time I've read that someone is OK with 480 Hz but "can't stand" 2,500 Hz. It's defies physics and logic.
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post #89 of 358
1/23/13 at 8:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

My guess is I'll still end up with a DLP projector to fulfill my need for a 'cinematic' screen.
As a small percent of people phosphor trails with plasma, another small percent see something very similar with DLP projection images. It's usually called the Rainbow Effect. The three small percentage groups overlap to some extent, but it's very possible for one individual to see one, two, or even three of the effects.

OLED is further out than two years unless someone finds a major break through very soon. The past year seems to have reinforced that estimation.
Edited by htwaits - 1/23/13 at 8:20pm
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post #90 of 358
1/23/13 at 8:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardia View Post

I have never experience "flicker" on my Kuro. So I don't know what it is.
You are biologically blessed. Those who experience phosphor trails are a small percent of the public. I have a niece who gets migraine headaches from watching plasma displays, but is happy with her LCD display.

In the case of DLP, there was research done by the Navy that established that something less than 5% of the population sees a rainbow effect when their eyes moved while watching a DLP display. That study caused the Navy to reject DLP for some of their technology.
Edited by htwaits - 1/23/13 at 8:26pm
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