or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Blu-ray & HD DVD › Blu-ray Players › Oppo BDP-105 "Sound Quality" Check Thread for Audiophiles
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Oppo BDP-105 "Sound Quality" Check Thread for Audiophiles - Page 38

post #1111 of 1448
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

Oppo will be showing 103D at show with built in Darbee processing.

 

http://www.marketwired.com/press-release/darbeevision-licenses-visual-presence-to-world-class-blu-ray-maker-1831029.htm

 

Why not 105D :(

post #1112 of 1448
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

Did you check to make sure the trim levels on your subwoofer(s) hasn't been turned down?

On the oppo the sub is at 10db. Does that sound correct? Thx
post #1113 of 1448
Quote:
Originally Posted by gelly View Post

On the oppo the sub is at 10db. Does that sound correct? Thx
I meant on the subwoofer itself - most subwoofers have trim level controls on them. As far as 10db goes, it may or may not be correct - you'd have to check it with test tones and a sound level meter to determine if that's the right level or not.
post #1114 of 1448
Been following this excellent thread for a while now!

I just recently accuired a separates system consisting of multichannel amplifier NuForce MCH-300SEC7 and processor NuForce AVP-18 which is being fed HDMI bitstream from Blu-ray player Denon DBT-3313. The processor has a decent AutoEQ which I've been pleased with for the most part. However, this weekend I set it to 'direct/bypass' for the first time and was floored by the improvements - my speakers "breathe" now and the soundstage is far more spatial and dynamic. I've never ONCE been impressed by 'direct/bypass' with ANY other a/v amp or receiver I've tested - somehow they've all depended on EQ to sound good. As a former Audyssey fanboy knowing what I'm hearing now with this unprocessed sound is makes it hard to go back to using EQ. So in a way the advantage I thought I'd get with this processor feels wasted now. It's only job is volume control and basic speaker management.

Therefor I'm wondering if me moving to the Oppo BDP-105 would possibly yeild even more transparency due to the elimination of a component in the chain? By what I have read the Oppo seems to have better DAC's as well (NuForce AVP-18 have DAC CS42528 - whatever that is? I'm not knowledgeable on DAC's). Seems a pure signal and minimal processing is what my amplifier and speakers truly love. Many of you have discovered the benefits of running the BDP-105 directly to your amps. I'm wondering what specific sonic improvements have you guys noticed in your system by doing this? By eliminating the processor/preamp/receiver in the chain. More transparency? A more natural sound? Anyone?
post #1115 of 1448
^ If your goals in audio are to faithfully reproduce what the sound engineer heard when recording/mastering a given set of audio tracks, then a minimalistic component approach/solution will be a desired outcome. Some audio afficionados who have been listening to their favorite tracks via a multiple component chain to their amps have gotten used to their "digital/analog" colored sound, and any changes made to their systems to reduce this added color produce non-favorable fidelity to them. Their reasonings for this could be anything from striving to gain something they felt was lacking in the original recording to justifying an expensive component purchase in their audio chain. You, along with a good handful of other audio purists seem to prefer a raw, less abated/colored, more transparent fidelity. I think, for you, a really top audiophile dac with volume control along with a high quality power amp stage will send you closer to that audio nirvana we are all searching for. Pick up a 105. I think you will be very pleased with your new-found discovery to your music enjoyment.
post #1116 of 1448
^ Excellent input and viewpoint! You make sense! Thank you! I have been one of those folks who had gotten used to "digital/analog" colored sound, and addicted to it, but only recently just woke up, so-to-speak. I see (hear) the benefits of transparency and an honest approach more now than I ever have. I have officially converted. So... a minimalistic approach it is! I'm gonna borrow a BDP105 and test for myself to compare with my processor. If the 105 is superior the processor might just as well be up for sale, however nice of a piece it is.
post #1117 of 1448
Before you get too far into the "direct sound" and components "coloring" the sound don't forget that the Oppo adds it's own "color" to the sound direct and non direct! It really depends on the processor used, You guys are telling me the Oppo direct sounds better than the Krell, Classe, or Bryston units? rolleyes.gif
post #1118 of 1448
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp1080 View Post

Before you get too far into the "direct sound" and components "coloring" the sound don't forget that the Oppo adds it's own "color" to the sound direct and non direct! It really depends on the processor used, You guys are telling me the Oppo direct sounds better than the Krell, Classe, or Bryston units? rolleyes.gif
We're not trying to claim that any one unit sounds "better" than any other unit. Besides, sounding "better" is completely subjective for the most part. We're trying to show that minimizing your analog path (from source to speakers) will come closer to faithfully reproducing the original audio recording than adding additional audio components to further the original "color" of the audio signal. It's like trying to view the day outside through 5 panes of glass as opposed to one pane of glass. Or turning on your bright lights in fog. More is not desirable, and will only further distort and distance you from the original "color" source.
post #1119 of 1448
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanF8500 View Post

We're not trying to claim that any one unit sounds "better" than any other unit. Besides, sounding "better" is completely subjective for the most part. We're trying to show that minimizing your analog path (from source to speakers) will come closer to faithfully reproducing the original audio recording than adding additional audio components to further the original "color" of the audio signal. It's like trying to view the day outside through 5 panes of glass as opposed to one pane of glass. Or turning on your bright lights in fog. More is not desirable, and will only further distort and distance you from the original "color" source.

+1
post #1120 of 1448
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp1080 View Post

Before you get too far into the "direct sound" and components "coloring" the sound don't forget that the Oppo adds it's own "color" to the sound direct and non direct! It really depends on the processor used, You guys are telling me the Oppo direct sounds better than the Krell, Classe, or Bryston units? rolleyes.gif

I wonder!

post #1121 of 1448
I understand Dan's point, but there can be reasons to use an intervening device, input flexibility. One of my systems uses Oppo 95 analog direct to amps, the other Oppo 105 analog to Cary Cinema 11a pass-through to amps. The Cary accommodates a phono preamp; the Oppo 105 has no analog input. So it's not that we're all trying to color sound.

db
post #1122 of 1448
Under this way of thinking we need the same hardware used in the recording studio like the only one and exclusive solution.
Sorry, but the sound and music are a lot more than this, what you really need is a system without noise (well, the less possible), this include ALL the noise surces down and very good electronics are enough.
post #1123 of 1448
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pbnmjk View Post

Under this way of thinking we need the same hardware used in the recording studio like the only one and exclusive solution.
Sorry, but the sound and music are a lot more than this, what you really need is a system without noise (well, the less possible), this include ALL the noise surces down and very good electronics are enough.
+1

Exactly.
What is the correlation between what happens in the studio, and leaving out a pre-amp between the source device and an amplifier?
Hey, if that works for you, fine.
I've tried the no pre-amp thing several times since getting my first cd player in 1983 and have always preferred a good pre-amp in the chain.
That's just my own experience, not dogma.
post #1124 of 1448
It will be really interesting for me to hear what specifically improves in my case by running just the BDP-105 directly to my NuForce amp and eliminate the processor. My processors only job now anyway is volume control and general speaker management - things the Oppo can provide + better DAC's (on paper). That's why it feels alluring to me, like it apparently has for others who have gone down this route. A shorter signal path and fewer electronic components in the chain makes perfect sense to me (in theory). Now, if I was in need of EQ, tons of inputs and excessive features it probably wouldn't make sense. But I'm not.

I'll know when I get one home for testing. I'm excited! biggrin.gif
Edited by RickyDeg - 9/25/13 at 5:52am
post #1125 of 1448
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pbnmjk View Post

Under this way of thinking we need the same hardware used in the recording studio like the only one and exclusive solution.
Sorry, but the sound and music are a lot more than this, what you really need is a system without noise (well, the less possible), this include ALL the noise sources down and very good electronics are enough.

+1

Very good point a low noise floor. The other factor is having a room that is quiet enough to reveal the changes made in one's system. High end audio components and recording components are built for different purposes.
post #1126 of 1448
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post

+1

Exactly.
What is the correlation between what happens in the studio, and leaving out a pre-amp between the source device and an amplifier?
Hey, if that works for you, fine.
I've tried the no pre-amp thing several times since getting my first cd player in 1983 and have always preferred a good pre-amp in the chain.
That's just my own experience, not dogma.


I also tried it years ago with a Mark Levinson 390s and my still in use this day Mark Levinson 335 stereo amplifier. Ran it balanced of course! It was very transparent and revealing with the right recordings but lacked the same dynamics as my then preamp which was an Audio Research LS25 MKII. I guess it comes down to how many other sources one has in their respective systems. I can totally understand how some users have heard improvements with their playback by going directly into their amps.
post #1127 of 1448
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

I wonder!

Keep wondering. biggrin.gif Hey did you sell your Classe SSP-800 yet? I thought you were going direct into your amps using the BDP-105?
post #1128 of 1448
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

I wonder!

You don't have to wonder. At least, the Bryston SP3 has been reviewed by a highly reputable individual and he found the D/A converter of the SP3 to be better than that of the 105. The other two processors, I cannot speak on, but I doubt the 105 betters them. What do you expect for $1,200.00?
post #1129 of 1448
I have had my Oppo BDP-105 since March and I really like it - using it as the primary control center for my entire system - both 2 channel and multi-channel. Interesting that there was just a discussion about the presence of a preamp in the system. I have tried 2 channel listening with and without the preamp in the chain and I cannot tell the difference. I am not that person that can hear the difference between power cables and interconnects, but I can hear the difference between a low end preamp and a really good preamp - and I cannot tell the difference with or without.

I use the preamp to feed the RCA surround decoded signals to the main amp via the "processor bypass" feature - I'm not even sure if I need to do this. Other thing is that I am not using the Oppo's internal bass management - I'm using an external crossover for that so that I can get full use of subs in 2 channel listening and run my mains as "large" / sub as "none" for multi-channel.

Anyone have any comments on how this is connected? This is my system currently:

2-Channel System (incorporated into Home Theater System Below as L/R Front)
•Source: Oppo BDP-105, Balanced Output to Preamp
•Preamp: Adcom GFP-750, Balanced Output to Crossover
•Crossover: Bryston 10B Sub/Bal, Balanced Output to Amp (High Pass @ 80Hz), RCA Output to Sub EQ (Low Pass @ 80Hz)
•Amp: Bryston 4BSST2 (2x300w), Balanced Input from Crossover •Speakers: Paradigm Signature S4 v.2 (L/R Front)
•Sub EQ / Bass Room Correction: SVS AS-EQ1, RCA Outputs to Subs
•Subwoofers: (2) SVS SB12-NSD 12” Acoustic Suspension Subs, RCA Inputs
•Power Filter / Sequencer: Panamax M5300-PM 11 Outlet, 5 Bank Filter, Power Center

Home Theater System (uses 2-Channel system above for “Large” L/R Front)
•Source: Oppo BDP-105 (Internal Surround Processor / Internal 7.1 Analog Volume Control), 7.1 RCA Outputs Direct to Preamp (L/R “Large” - Processor Bypass Input) and remaining 7.1 RCA Outputs Direct to Amps (C/LS/RS/LB/RB “Small”), HDMI Video Output Direct to TV (w/ ARC)
•Amp: Bryston 4BSST2 (2x300w), RCA Input for Center •Speaker: Paradigm Reference Studio CC-590
•Amp: Outlaw 7700 (7x200w), RCA Input for LS/RS/LB/RB •Speakers: (4) Def Tech UIW-RSSII w/ In-Wall Enclosures
•TV: Samsung UN46ES6500FXZA 46” 3D LCD (LED Backlight) Direct View
post #1130 of 1448
^ The reason, I believe, why you don't hear much of a difference to your audio signal with or without your preamp in the chain is because your preamp has the ability to bypass your preamp's volume/balance controls via the "processor bypass" feature. A lot of analog "color" comes from volume controls and other analog audio processing controls (balance, tone, etc.) in a preamp/avr/pre-pro.

That's one heck of a setup you've got there. Two 12" subs must really kick!!! You've got yourself an instant defibrillator there. smile.gif
Edited by DanF8500 - 9/25/13 at 8:36pm
post #1131 of 1448
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanF8500 View Post

^ The reason, I believe, why you don't hear much of a difference to your audio signal with or without your preamp in the chain is because your preamp has the ability to bypass your preamp's volume/balance controls via the "processor bypass" feature. A lot of analog "color" comes from volume controls and other analog audio processing controls (balance, tone, etc.) in a preamp/avr/pre-pro.

Agreed. But I was talking about not being able to tell if the preamp is in the chain for 2-channel listening when the "processor bypass" feature is disengaged. I turn the Oppo volume to 100 and use the preamp volume control OR remove the preamp and use the Oppo's volume control - I can't hear the difference. I guess the quality of both volume controls are the same or good enough to not be able to hear any difference.
post #1132 of 1448
^ If that is the case, then I suspect your crossover may be adding it own flavor to your audio chain to be able to tell any difference. An analogy would be like the one I described above.....if you're looking through 5 panes of glass, and the 3rd pane (your crossover) is dirty, it doesn't matter if panes 4 or 5 are perfectly clean...you're still going to have a dirty view outside. I would also like to add that two 12" subs are going to be putting out a lot more bass frequencies than your two paradigm speakers are putting out mids and treble, so the bass frequencies may be drowning out any finer detail gains and transparency that a reduced analog signal path can provide.
Edited by DanF8500 - 9/27/13 at 7:45am
post #1133 of 1448
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanF8500 View Post

I would also like to add that two 12" subs are going to be putting out a lot more bass frequencies than your two paradigm speakers are putting out mids and treble, so the bass frequencies may be drowning out any finer detail gains and transparency that a reduced analog signal path can provide.
If the levels are calibrated properly on the subs, that shouldn't be an issue.
post #1134 of 1448
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

If the levels are calibrated properly on the subs, that shouldn't be an issue.
Then why spend $$$ on two 12" subs if one is not going to take advantage of their enormous low level power in an audio system? If you purchase them not for their power, but for their ability to play sub 40hz frequencies, then wouldn't a full range speaker that was designed to give equal bias to the entire frequency range be superior? I'm fully in agreement that music enjoyment is personal taste, but I think buying a pair of 12" subs in your 2-channel system and playing them at trimmed levels would be like buying a Ferrari and never going faster than 65 mph in it. smile.gif

Mtn-tech, please tell me you bought two 12" subs because that's your preference for music enjoyment? Do you prefer more powerful bass in your music?
Edited by DanF8500 - 9/27/13 at 8:56am
post #1135 of 1448
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanF8500 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

If the levels are calibrated properly on the subs, that shouldn't be an issue.
Then why spend $$$ on two 12" subs if one is not going to take advantage of their enormous low level power in an audio system? If you purchase them not for their power, but for their ability to play sub 40hz frequencies, then wouldn't a full range speaker that was designed to give equal bias to the entire frequency range be superior? I'm fully in agreement that music enjoyment is personal taste, but I think buying a pair of 12" subs in your 2-channel system and playing them at trimmed levels would be like buying a Ferrari and never going faster than 65 mph in it. smile.gif

Mtn-tech, please tell me you bought two 12" subs because that's your preference for music enjoyment? Do you prefer more powerful bass in your music?

You aren't thinking about this right.

The idea is not to get arbitrarily loud bass; the idea is to get balanced bass that goes deep.

Subwoofers work by pressurizing the whole room. That's why bass is non-localizable. It seems to come "from everywhere". You don't associate it with the actual location of the subwoofer.

Now, you have to huff a lot of air to pressurize a typical listening room at say 20Hz. It is a rare "full range" speaker that can do that AT VOLUME -- you pretty much would have to have a speaker with a powered woofer -- i.e., a box with a sub built inside it. Indeed even a good sub won't really do its job in a room if the sub is too small for the room. I.e., sub specs are only good up to the size of the room the sub is designed to pressurize.

But rather than getting one, bigger sub (which may be a problem aesthetically) you can get 2 or more "normal" sized subs -- all of good design, and have them work together.

So getting multiple subs may make it possible to go deep at volume in your size of listening room, but still BALANCED in volume to the rest of the frequencies produced by the main speakers.

Finally, bass response in listening rooms is a big deal. These frequencies produce audio wavelengths that are on the order of room dimensions. That means the bass frequencies exist in the room as "standing waves". Exactly how the standing waves "couple" to the room -- based on frequency, dimensions in all 3 directions, and reflections -- is complicated. But the upshot is that you get Resonance Peaks and Cancellation Nulls that vary in frequency and in location in the room. It is not uncommon to see 12dB to even 24dB variation in bass at different bass frequencies depending on exactly where your ears are positioned. The distance across a typical sofa is more than enough to exhibit this.

There are a variety of ways to tame a room's bass response, but one that seems to work particularly well for people is using more than one Sub. This blends things out by producing two sets of standing waves that each couple to the room in their own way. The combined output often works better than you would get with one, bigger sub.

Now just throwing 2 or more subs into a room and hoping for the best, is not really the idea here. Some intelligence needs to be applied to sub placement. And ideally you will use some tools to actually measure bass response as you adjust things. Room Correction software, such as Anthem Room Correction in my Anthem Statement D2v, can be a huge help in all this. And with more than one sub, the output of each has to be reduced, so that their COMBINED output is still in balance with the main speakers.

Anyway to summarize, the idea of using more than one Sub is not to produce "out of balance", extra loud bass that dominates the audio in a totally inaccurate fashion. The idea, instead, is to produce more accurate bass -- still in balance -- over a wider range of bass frequencies (including the octave or so below 30Hz that is more "felt" than "heard"), and while minimizing any nasty room response characteristics for bass.
--Bob
Edited by Bob Pariseau - 9/27/13 at 9:28am
post #1136 of 1448
^ Bob, that's a good answer. Thanks for your input. I think my mind has been skewed over the years listening to bass-emphasized car "boom boxes", and somehow correlating that to large subs in home audio.
Edited by DanF8500 - 9/27/13 at 10:22am
post #1137 of 1448
Bob,

Another thing to remember is that the Oppo sends LFE to your sub(s) regardless of the size you set for other speakers. I have a pair of Velodyne HGS-15s controlled by an SMS-1 bass manager that I use with a pair of KEF 107/2s with 107/2 KUBE. I'm ambivalent about whether to set the mains to large or small. The 107/2s do deliver that more felt than heard vibration for a pipe organ pedal note, and the blast from an explosion in a movie is almost always LFE, so goes to the subs. I've tried large and small settings with crossovers ranging from 40 to 80 Hz for music where there is rarely a .1 channel; I'd be hard pressed to tell the difference. But I suspect only the subs can deliver that pressure you can feel on your chest from explosions in certain movies.

db
post #1138 of 1448
^ A common misconception is that the LFE channel is for delivery of deep (lowest frequency) bass. Not true. The main speaker channels can carry bass as low in frequency as the authors care to go, and indeed the rule of thumb for mixing movies is that you can't assume a Sub exists, so you have to put all critical bass in the main speakers (often Center gets that -- a common reason why Center speakers get blown out in setups without a Sub).

Instead, LFE is for *LOUD* bass. It is recorded -10dB down so that there is headroom to record louder bass. If you put loud bass in the main speaker channels you might clip the amps at volume levels appropriate for the rest of the channel content.

Now that means that the main speakers may very well be presented with very low frequency content. And as I said, it is a rare speaker that can really handle the lowest frequencies well, at reasonable volume.

So my recommendation, assuming you have a good Sub in the first place, is to set your main speakers to small and with a lower crossover frequency, so you take advantage of more of their "full range" characteristics.

Keep in mind that the Crossover is not a hard cutoff. It rolls into effect over about an octave (factor of 2 in frequency). So if you have main speakers that you KNOW are good down to 30Hz, you don't want to set a 30Hz Crossover. A 30Hz Crossover will still involve significant amounts of bass going to the mains down to 15Hz.

So for speakers good down to 30Hz, the Rule of Thumb would be to set a Crossover of 60Hz (or higher).

At the other end, you ALSO don't want a Crossover too high in frequency as that will steer content to the Sub that really shouldn't be there -- like male dialog. Typically you want the Crossover to be below 100Hz -- with 90 or 80Hz even better.

Bass steered to the Subwoofer from the main speaker channels (via Crossover processing) gets mixed with the LFE channel -- with the necessary volume adjustment happening automatically -- and that combined signal is what goes to the Sub.

Felt bass -- that chest thumping impact -- happens in the octave below 30Hz. As I said, it's rare for main speakers to be able to reproduce that well.

The main component of LFE in movies is actually somewhat higher -- around 50 to 60Hz for the audible part of explosions for example. LFE is essentially gone above 120Hz.

With certain notable exceptions (pipe organs), most music doesn't get down below 30Hz.

And it is not at all unusual for multi-channel MUSIC mixes to not use the LFE channel at ALL! They don't need the extra headroom the LFE channel provides, and they can mix all the bass they need into the main channels. This is particularly true of SACD recordings -- due to a fundamental design screw up in how LFE is treated dating back to Sony's original spec.

So at minimum you want a Sub that is accurate, and with adequate power in the range 30-80Hz. Ideally the Sub will cover 15-120Hz -- and be adequately sized for your listening room. Then you have flexibility to pick the Crossover that works best given (a) the characteristics of your main speakers, and (b) the bass response of your listening room.
--Bob
post #1139 of 1448
Bob's my hero on this page.

Thanks for keeping it real, Bob!
post #1140 of 1448
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanF8500 View Post

Then why spend $$$ on two 12" subs if one is not going to take advantage of their enormous low level power in an audio system? If you purchase them not for their power, but for their ability to play sub 40hz frequencies, then wouldn't a full range speaker that was designed to give equal bias to the entire frequency range be superior? I'm fully in agreement that music enjoyment is personal taste, but I think buying a pair of 12" subs in your 2-channel system and playing them at trimmed levels would be like buying a Ferrari and never going faster than 65 mph in it. smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

The idea is not to get arbitrarily loud bass; the idea is to get balanced bass that goes deep ... But rather than getting one, bigger sub (which may be a problem aesthetically) you can get 2 or more "normal" sized subs -- all of good design, and have them work together.

So getting multiple subs may make it possible to go deep at volume in your size of listening room, but still BALANCED in volume to the rest of the frequencies produced by the main speakers ... There are a variety of ways to tame a room's bass response, but one that seems to work particularly well for people is using more than one Sub. This blends things out by producing two sets of standing waves that each couple to the room in their own way. The combined output often works better than you would get with one, bigger sub.

Exactly - well said. I have two-way mains (and don't have room for large "full range" tower mains) so I knew that all of the bass duties would fall on the subs. I bought two "normal sized" subs thinking that I could return one of them during the home evaluation period if the second one didn't make any difference. I don't have room for one monster sub and two subs gives me a lot more placement options.

I currently have a Velodyne SMS-1 to measure and correct bass frequencies. When I measured with one sub there were two large dips in the FR which the EQ could not boost as expected - you can't boost a standing wave null. When I measured with both subs and adjusted the placements, the nulls were significantly better and it gave me more deep bass below 30Hz and more overall bass volume volume so that I could cut peaks for a much flatter FR.

I'm don't mind that the Oppo doesn't have room correction EQ - I prefer to apply EQ to the bass only. For 2 channel, I use the Oppo's dedicated (full range) stereo outputs and the crossover passes bass to the subs. For multi-channel, I have the bass management in the Oppo set to mains "large" and all others "small" - the bass is routed to the mains and again the crossover passes it to the subs. The sound with music is very balanced and you don't even notice the subs - you only notice when you turn them off. And as Bob said, when there is LFE channel info present the Oppo adds that to the mains and the subs play MUCH louder than with regular bass from music - that is the other advantage of two subs normally running at a fraction of their capacity, you have more headroom when you need it for LFE.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Blu-ray Players
AVS › AVS Forum › Blu-ray & HD DVD › Blu-ray Players › Oppo BDP-105 "Sound Quality" Check Thread for Audiophiles