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Oppo BDP-105 "Sound Quality" Check Thread for Audiophiles - Page 46

post #1351 of 1458
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayhikski View Post

Hello there, I am using an Oppo BDP-105 + Halo P7 (+ Halo A31 and Halo A23 Amp) combo and just realized I may be in danger clipping the input to the P7 since I have the volume level on the BDP-105 fixed at 100.

James

Very nice are they all in silver biggrin.gif
post #1352 of 1458
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbphd View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmusoke View Post

Kayhikski:

BTW, RCA and XLR outputs will not require different volume settings on the Oppo since the different XLR voltage levels are reduced by 6dB inside the prepro  or amplifier to equal the RCA inputs.

David

David,

Where does the 6 dB reduction occur? I've been switching between SE and XLR inputs of my Parasound JC-2 while various CDs and SACDs are playing on my Oppo BDP-105. I've had two surprises: (1) there seems to be no level difference between SE and XLR, and (2) I don't hear a difference in sound quality between the SE and XLR inputs. When switching, the sound appears continuous, although the lights indicate it is switched. The Sony XA5400ES is using the other XLR input, so I'm going to try the same comparison by connecting it SE as well as XLR to the JC-2, assuming both the SE and XLR outputs are simultaneously active on the Sony.

db

 

The 6dB reduction occurs within your JC-2...probably at its input section. It would be weird and jarring if when you switched between SE and XLR, you'd always have to jump up to reduce the volume.

post #1353 of 1458
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayhikski View Post

Hello David,

Thank you for getting back to me on this.

FL + C + FR are driven by a Parasound Halo A31 Amp and SR + SL by a Parasound Halo A23 Amp.

The specs are listed at the URL's below but don't list the maximum input voltage to clipping so I emailed Parasound and was told that for the A31 it is 1.4V and for the A23 it is 1.2V.

Specs:
http://www.parasound.com/halo/a31.php
http://www.parasound.com/halo/a23.php

I reviewed your previous post (#998, p34 in this thread) and had a stab at the calculation myself. Please feel free to correct it!

I am using the balanced outputs from the 105 to the P7 for 2CH listening and 6x single-ended for Multichannel. All the connections from the P7 to the Amps are balanced.

Noting that the max output of the 105 is 4.2V XLR, 2.1V RCA and that the maximum gain of the P7 preamp is 5, my math is as follows:

FL+FR (Balanced output from 105 to P7 to A31 amp)
20 LOG (4.2 x 5/1.4) = 23.5dB

Center (SE output from 105 to P7 to A31 amp)
20 LOG (2.1 x 5/1.4) = 17.5dB

Surround Channels (SE output from 105 to P7 to A23 amp)
20 LOG (2.1 x 5/1.2) = 18.8dB

It seems that the FL+FR channels place the largest restriction on volume. Since each volume click reduces output by 0.5dB it looks like I need to limit the 105 to 100-(2x23.5) = 100 - 47= 53 ?

Thanks again!

James

 

 

 

James... you are mixing dB's and how their math works:):

 

I would simply start from the amps and work backwards towards the Oppo.

 

Both A23/A31 amps require a 1.0Vrms(RCA) or 2.0Vrms(XLR)  input to realize their full power ratings.  This means the P7 must output 2V maximum on its XLR outputs (1.0Vrms SE) to drive these amps at full power.

 

With its gain of 5, the P7 shall accept a maximum input voltage of 2.0/5 = 0.4Vrms from the Oppo's XLR outputs.

 

The corresponding volume level from the to produce a 0.4Vrms from the XLR outputs = 100 * (0.4/4.2) = 9.5 or 10.0 (approx.)  If you plan to drive the amps into clipping, then the max volume from the Oppo is 100 * (0.56/4.2) = 13 (approx).

 

These volume numbers are the same for the MCH outputs as well.

 

Obviously, these volume levels are very low, so if you want to use a full volume range from the Oppo, then you'd need high quality audiophile attenuators on the Oppo outputs. I believe i recommended some in my prioir posts on this topic.

 

You'd need to get a x10 or a 20dB attenuator pads to use the full volume range of the Oppo.

 

The problem with all of this is the combinaiton of a high gain of the P7 and high sensitivity of the A23/31 amps. Most amps require 2Vrms for full power but yours require half that.

 

Let me know how i can help... but try these numbers out in your setup. If i'm correct your setup will play really really loud at low Oppo volume levels.

 

 

David

post #1354 of 1458
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmusoke View Post


James... you are mixing dB's and how their math works:) :

I would simply start from the amps and work backwards towards the Oppo.

Both A23/A31 amps require a 1.0Vrms(RCA) or 2.0Vrms(XLR)  input to realize their full power ratings.  This means the P7 must output 2V maximum on its XLR outputs (1.0Vrms SE) to drive these amps at full power.

David,

Thanks again.

Ok. I take it you are getting the 1Vrms (RCA) from the fact that the input sensitivity of the A31 is 1V for 28.28V (THX Reference).
Quote:

With its gain of 5, the P7 shall accept a maximum input voltage of 2.0/5 = 0.4Vrms from the Oppo's XLR outputs.

Ok.
Quote:

The corresponding volume level from the to produce a 0.4Vrms from the XLR outputs = 100 * (0.4/4.2) = 9.5 or 10.0 (approx.)  If you plan to drive the amps into clipping, then the max volume from the Oppo is 100 * (0.56/4.2) = 13 (approx).

That I don't follow. The volume on the ESS Sabre DAC attenuates in 0.5dB per volume click increments from 0dB at volume=100.

So doesn't producing 0.4 Vrms from the XLR outputs on the 105 require 20 LOG [4.2/0.4] = 20.42 dB attenuation, which is equivalent to volume = 100 - (20.42 x 2) = 59

Or to prevent clipping on the A31, 20 LOG [4.2/0.56] = 17.5 dB attenuation ... i.e one needs to limit the 105 volume to 100 - (2 x 17.5) = 65

To prevent clipping on the A23 there's a slightly more stringent criteria than for the A31 and the math is the same as I had above i.e 20 LOG [2.1/0.24] = 18.8 dB ===> volume = 62
Quote:

These volume numbers are the same for the MCH outputs as well.

Ok I see that now. 2.1/0.2 = 4.2/0.4
Quote:
Obviously, these volume levels are very low, so if you want to use a full volume range from the Oppo, then you'd need high quality audiophile attenuators on the Oppo outputs. I believe i recommended some in my prioir posts on this topic.

You'd need to get a x10 or a 20dB attenuator pads to use the full volume range of the Oppo.

20dB would be best by the looks of it.

The good thing about the Oppo Volume is that there's no dial to knock by mistake so I am comfortable operating with a fixed volume of 60 and adjusting the P7 volume to taste; typically it is around 85-90.
Quote:
The problem with all of this is the combinaiton of a high gain of the P7 and high sensitivity of the A23/31 amps. Most amps require 2Vrms for full power but yours require half that.

Let me know how i can help... but try these numbers out in your setup. If i'm correct your setup will play really really loud at low Oppo volume levels.

I have it at 60 (-20dB).

Best,
James
post #1355 of 1458
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayhikski View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmusoke View Post



James... you are mixing dB's and how their math works:) :

I would simply start from the amps and work backwards towards the Oppo.

Both A23/A31 amps require a 1.0Vrms(RCA) or 2.0Vrms(XLR)  input to realize their full power ratings.  This means the P7 must output 2V maximum on its XLR outputs (1.0Vrms SE) to drive these amps at full power.

With its gain of 5, the P7 shall accept a maximum input voltage of 2.0/5 = 0.4Vrms from the Oppo's XLR outputs.

The corresponding volume level from the to produce a 0.4Vrms from the XLR outputs = 100 * (0.4/4.2) = 9.5 or 10.0 (approx.)  If you plan to drive the amps into clipping, then the max volume from the Oppo is 100 * (0.56/4.2) = 13 (approx).

These volume numbers are the same for the MCH outputs as well.
That I don't follow. The volume on the ESS Sabre DAC attenuates in 0.5dB per volume click increments from 0dB at volume=100.

So doesn't producing 0.4 Vrms from the XLR outputs on the 105 require 20 LOG [4.2/0.4] = 20.42 dB attenuation, which is equivalent to volume = 100 - (20.42 x 2) = 59

Or to prevent clipping on the A31, 20 LOG [4.2/0.56] = 17.5 dB attenuation ... i.e one needs to limit the 105 volume to 100 - (2 x 17.5) = 65

To prevent clipping on the A23 there's a slightly more stringent criteria than for the A31 and the math is the same as I had above i.e 20 LOG [2.1/0.24] = 18.8 dB ===> volume = 62

...
Something doesn't seem right with your calculations....if the 105 outputs 4.2 Vrms at 0dbFS via its XLR outputs (100 max volume), why would you think it only outputs .4 Vrms at a volume of 59? Why are you performing logarithmic calculations when the db attenuation on the 105 volume is a linear step? It's 1/2 db attenuation for every click...that's linear.
Edited by DanF8500 - 2/16/14 at 9:03am
post #1356 of 1458
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanF8500 View Post

Something doesn't seem right with your calculations....if the 105 outputs 4.2 Vrms at 0dbFS via its XLR outputs (100 max volume), why would you think it only outputs .4 Vrms at a volume of 59? Why are you performing logarithmic calculations when the db attenuation on the 105 volume is a linear step? It's 1/2 db attenuation for every click...that's linear.

Hello there,

dB's are related to voltage logarithmically (http://www.rapidtables.com/electric/decibel.htm):

dB = 10 LOG (( V2 * V2) / (V1 * V1)) = 20 LOG (V2 / V1)

The manual for the P7 for example states it has a total gain of 14 dB (with the volume set to 110). It also states that 200mV input produces 1V output i.e. a gain of 5.

As a check against the above formula, 20 LOG 5 better equal 14, which it does if you check on your calculator.

Every 6dB in fact is a doubling (or halving) of voltage, since 6 = 20 LOG 2. So if 14dB was a gain of 5, 20dB is a gain of 10.

A volume of 60 on the 105 is equivalent to a dB reduction of 20 (40 x 0.5dB steps) . 20dB is equivalent to a voltage loss of factor 10. 4.2/10 = 0.42. So there's the 0.4 Vrms at Volume=59

Best,
James
post #1357 of 1458
^ Thanks, James. I understand your calculations now.

I remember David using that formula a few moths ago for another forumite to compute his db reduction on the 105. Not sure why he didn't apply that formula to your configuration....
Edited by DanF8500 - 2/16/14 at 9:57am
post #1358 of 1458

Sigh!

 

I see where i might have made a mistake in the remote value numbers. Yes, you still need 0.4Vrms (XLR) output to bring James system to full power. I had forgotten that the Oppo prvides 0dBs at 4.1Vrms with a resolution of 0.5dB per remote click. So for a 0.4Vrms output from the Oppo, a x10 reduction in volume is necessary or a -20dB reduction from 0dBs. That translates into a volume level of 40 (-20dB /0.5dB per click) below the 100 max level or a volume level of 60.

 

Since James (or anyone else) doesn;t want to listen at full power all the time, he sets the P7 volume levels to less than their max of 110, and i believe he said 85-90.

post #1359 of 1458
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmusoke View Post

Sigh!

I see where i might have made a mistake in the remote value numbers. Yes, you still need 0.4Vrms (XLR) output to bring James system to full power. I had forgotten that the Oppo prvides 0dBs at 4.1Vrms with a resolution of 0.5dB per remote click. So for a 0.4Vrms output from the Oppo, a x10 reduction in volume is necessary or a -20dB reduction from 0dBs. That translates into a volume level of 40 (-20dB /0.5dB per click) below the 100 max level or a volume level of 60.

Since James (or anyone else) doesn't want to listen at full power all the time, he sets the P7 volume levels to less than their max of 110, and i believe he said 85-90.

David,

That's right. 60 on the Oppo and 85-90 on the P7.

Thanks for setting me straight re the XLR voltage mistake in my earlier calculation for FL+FR voltage attenuation in post #1353.

Best,
James
Edited by kayhikski - 2/18/14 at 7:08am
post #1360 of 1458
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbphd View Post

David,

Where does the 6 dB reduction occur? I've been switching between SE and XLR inputs of my Parasound JC-2 while various CDs and SACDs are playing on my Oppo BDP-105. I've had two surprises: (1) there seems to be no level difference between SE and XLR, and (2) I don't hear a difference in sound quality between the SE and XLR inputs. When switching, the sound appears continuous, although the lights indicate it is switched. The Sony XA5400ES is using the other XLR input, so I'm going to try the same comparison by connecting it SE as well as XLR to the JC-2, assuming both the SE and XLR outputs are simultaneously active on the Sony.

db
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmusoke View Post

The 6dB reduction occurs within your JC-2...probably at its input section. It would be weird and jarring if when you switched between SE and XLR, you'd always have to jump up to reduce the volume.

The currency is voltage and that 6dB reduction is equivalent to simply halving the voltage obtained from the XLR inputs after subtracting the positive and negative voltages, either before or after the gain is applied (I don't know which and it doesn't matter for the math but I would guess afterwards and so I am conducting the reduction afterwards in the math below).

Let us denote the voltage in as Vi (on XLR this is Vi on the positive terminal and -Vi on the negative terminal), the voltage of interest out as Vo (on XLR this would be sent out as Vo on the positive terminal and -Vo on the negative terminal), and the voltage recovered from XLR, to which any amplification should be applied, as Vr = (Vi - (-Vi) = 2 Vi

The JC-2 has a gain of 5, so

For SE, Vo = 5 Vi

For XLR, Vo = (5 Vr ) /2 = (5 * (2 Vi)) / 2 = 5 Vi (i.e the same as for SE) .. the only difference is that this is sent out as Vo on the positive terminal and -Vo on the negative terminal so the potential difference across the terminals = 2 Vo but the quantity of interest being transferred remains the same. (Note the division by 2 in the math here which is equivalent to a 6dB drop).

Surely it should always be this way for any XLR input/output? i.e that a device either halves the voltage obtained from the XLR inputs after subtracting the voltages on the positive and negative terminals and operates any gain on that, or alternatively operates any gain after subtracting the voltages on the positive and negative terminals and then halves the resulting voltage to effect the necessary 6dB drop.

This same reduction surely applies at the amp too so if you switch out XLR for SE on one of your amp connections I'm betting the volume doesn't drop 6dB on that channel .. or jump 6dB if you swap SE for XLR.

Is this a better way to think about things?

James
Edited by kayhikski - 2/18/14 at 11:16am
post #1361 of 1458
I've tried the same routine with my Sony XA5400ES, switching between SE and XLR inputs of the Parasound JC-2. The SE level of the Sony is higher than XLR, perhaps due to an impedance difference. The level difference makes it more difficult to compare the sound quality of the two connections than it is with the Oppo, where the sound seems continuous with only an indicator light to tell you it's switched, but if there is a difference it's so slight I'm unable to perceive it.

db
post #1362 of 1458
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbphd View PostI've tried the same routine with my Sony XA5400ES, switching between SE and XLR inputs of the Parasound JC-2. The SE level of the Sony is higher than XLR, perhaps due to an impedance difference. The level difference makes it more difficult to compare the sound quality of the two connections than it is with the Oppo, where the sound seems continuous with only an indicator light to tell you it's switched, but if there is a difference it's so slight I'm unable to perceive it.

db

db how do you like the XA5400Es vs the BDP-105?

post #1363 of 1458
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

db how do you like the XA5400Es vs the BDP-105?

They are both superb. I use the BDP-15 for surround and HDCD, and of course, Blu-ray. I tend to use the XA5400ES for stereo. I've decided to use SE for both, so only the JC-3 phono stage will continue to use XLR. The sound of the BDP-105 may be just a bit more detailed, the sound stage of the XA5400ES just a bit wider and deeper, but it's really a close call, both image so well. The BDP-105 may be a bit less system dependent. Replacing the Cary Cinema 11a processor with the Parasound JC-2 analog stereo preamp revealed the XA5400ES to have a wider, deeper, and more detailed sound stage than I suspected.

db
post #1364 of 1458
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbphd View Post

They are both superb. I use the BDP-15 for surround and HDCD, and of course, Blu-ray. I tend to use the XA5400ES for stereo. I've decided to use SE for both, so only the JC-3 phono stage will continue to use XLR. The sound of the BDP-105 may be just a bit more detailed, the sound stage of the XA5400ES just a bit wider and deeper, but it's really a close call, both image so well. The BDP-105 may be a bit less system dependent. Replacing the Cary Cinema 11a processor with the Parasound JC-2 analog stereo preamp revealed the XA5400ES to have a wider, deeper, and more detailed sound stage than I suspected.

db

I have the Sony SCD-777ES but prefer the BDP-105, so I never bothered to get the XA-5400ES
post #1365 of 1458

^^^ You really need to learn the meaning of the word "humble":) 

post #1366 of 1458
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmusoke View Post

^^^ You really need to learn the meaning of the word "humble"smile.gif  

Yes I know

1hum·ble adjective
: not proud : not thinking of yourself as better than other people

: given or said in a way that shows you do not think you are better than other people

: showing that you do not think of yourself as better than other people

wink.gif
post #1367 of 1458
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Very nice are they all in silver biggrin.gif

Hello there. Missed this before. No they are all black. All my gear is inside a Salamander with doors so I can add/remove equipment without the missis knowing.

PS - Looked at your setup .. feeling humble wink.gif
post #1368 of 1458
What is best Stereo L/R if I want to use both DACs or down mix? I know I asked before but I forgot I had to do a reset after upgrading the software wink.gif
post #1369 of 1458
I haven't really thought this through but i am thinking of selling my Integra DHC-80.3 processor and replacing with Parasound Halo P7 analog pre-amp with Oppo 105D.
The Integra was $2700 i think and so the cost would be around the same - i would lose Audyssey XT32 i guess.
Why am i thinking about doing this? Good question - not sure. I thought maybe the Oppo Sabre DACs and the P7 pre-amp are better than Integra but who knows.
Also, can i use two subs with this combo (P7 with 105)?

thanks
post #1370 of 1458
Quote:
Originally Posted by bao01 View Post

I haven't really thought this through but i am thinking of selling my Integra DHC-80.3 processor and replacing with Parasound Halo P7 analog pre-amp with Oppo 105D.
The Integra was $2700 i think and so the cost would be around the same - i would lose Audyssey XT32 i guess.
Why am i thinking about doing this? Good question - not sure. I thought maybe the Oppo Sabre DACs and the P7 pre-amp are better than Integra but who knows.
Also, can i use two subs with this combo (P7 with 105)?

thanks

I use the 105 directly to amps and love it but it's been a chore figuring out optimum seating, speaker and souind panel setup; also< I still have some frequency response issues but they don't rear their head much except for specific situations, and not too often. But I'd try running your system without the Audessey, mark existing seating and speaker locations, then try changing them to see if you can live with any large frequency response issues that may come up. I'd expect the oppo and better amp setup to provide much improved clarity and "air", but you will lose room correction...
post #1371 of 1458
Quote:
Originally Posted by bao01 View Post

I haven't really thought this through but i am thinking of selling my Integra DHC-80.3 processor and replacing with Parasound Halo P7 analog pre-amp with Oppo 105D.
The Integra was $2700 i think and so the cost would be around the same - i would lose Audyssey XT32 i guess.
Why am i thinking about doing this? Good question - not sure. I thought maybe the Oppo Sabre DACs and the P7 pre-amp are better than Integra but who knows.
Also, can i use two subs with this combo (P7 with 105)?

thanks

It really depends on your room. If you have a room with lots of absorbent materials like carpet, soft couches and possible an a-typical shape, then you may get better sound from the analog audio...
Especially if you have a deliberately treated room with acoustical panels and such in all the right places.
However, if you have a room that has lots of hard reflective surfaces, and maybe open to other rooms and can't be a properly controlled environment against sound reflections,
then you are probably better off going with HDMI audio and good correction software like Audyssey.
post #1372 of 1458
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikepos View Post

I use the 105 directly to amps and love it but it's been a chore figuring out optimum seating, speaker and souind panel setup; also< I still have some frequency response issues but they don't rear their head much except for specific situations, and not too often. But I'd try running your system without the Audessey, mark existing seating and speaker locations, then try changing them to see if you can live with any large frequency response issues that may come up. I'd expect the oppo and better amp setup to provide much improved clarity and "air", but you will lose room correction...

I like that idea - I will turn off Audyssey and see what i think.
Does the 105 have some sort of manual equalizer that you can set with help of REW or similar software?
post #1373 of 1458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smarty-pants View Post

It really depends on your room. If you have a room with lots of absorbent materials like carpet, soft couches and possible an a-typical shape, then you may get better sound from the analog audio...
Especially if you have a deliberately treated room with acoustical panels and such in all the right places.
However, if you have a room that has lots of hard reflective surfaces, and maybe open to other rooms and can't be a properly controlled environment against sound reflections,
then you are probably better off going with HDMI audio and good correction software like Audyssey.

It is large, fully enclosed rectangle: 29 x 22 x 8 or 5100 cubic feet. It has carpet but not much else. I would say it's a "bright / live" room but i am not an expert.
I guess i could buy some acoustic room treatments.
post #1374 of 1458
Quote:
Originally Posted by bao01 View Post

I like that idea - I will turn off Audyssey and see what i think.
Does the 105 have some sort of manual equalizer that you can set with help of REW or similar software?

The 105 does not have any manual equalizer but it does have excellent bass mgmt for the analog connections. I use analog pretty much for everything whether it be music or movies. I do however have the 105 running through my 7.1 analog inputs on a Emotiva umc-200. The Emo works pretty good for me as a straight pass through.
post #1375 of 1458
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdanderson View Post

The 105 does not have any manual equalizer but it does have excellent bass mgmt for the analog connections. I use analog pretty much for everything whether it be music or movies. I do however have the 105 running through my 7.1 analog inputs on a Emotiva umc-200. The Emo works pretty good for me as a straight pass through.

ok - thanks
post #1376 of 1458
Quote:
Originally Posted by bao01 View Post

It is large, fully enclosed rectangle: 29 x 22 x 8 or 5100 cubic feet. It has carpet but not much else. I would say it's a "bright / live" room but i am not an expert.
I guess i could buy some acoustic room treatments.

If you go that route spend a few hours educating yourself before throwing money at the problem. Bass traps, absorptive panels and diffusion panels all serve a specific purpose and except for bass traps too much is not good - not that it's affordable to get too much...
post #1377 of 1458

So true...before you go the direct route, make sure your room has the ability to tame echos and bass peaks/nulls by getting bass absorbers, mid and high frequency absorbers. Diffusion panels shoud be last imo, but they help 'bring out' the sound.

post #1378 of 1458
Quote:
Originally Posted by bao01 View Post

It is large, fully enclosed rectangle: 29 x 22 x 8 or 5100 cubic feet. It has carpet but not much else. I would say it's a "bright / live" room but i am not an expert.
I guess i could buy some acoustic room treatments.
Before you spend any money you can start with spare blankets that you already have. Hang them in various configurations in your room and you will hear the effects of dampening the sound. Clap your hands loudly in your room before you hang anything and if it is bright you will hear the reverberations. After hanging some blankets clap your hands again and you will hear considerably less reverberations. Experiment with different wall positions to hear the effects of the blankets on the music from your system. The point is you can start to get an appreciation of the effects of dampening before buying professional products.
post #1379 of 1458
Quote:
Originally Posted by bao01 View Post

It is large, fully enclosed rectangle: 29 x 22 x 8 or 5100 cubic feet. It has carpet but not much else. I would say it's a "bright / live" room but i am not an expert.
I guess i could buy some acoustic room treatments.
Every room can make use of some bass traps so I would begin there.
I used a few cases of OC 703 and chunked every corner possible, floor to ceiling .....resulting in the greatest bang for the buck expenditure my setup has experienced to date.wink.gif
post #1380 of 1458
Thanks for good suggestions. I really like the blanket idea - quick way to hear a real difference (hopefully).
I will do some reading on panels and traps.
I have never really done a serious comparison of with Audyssey XT32 and without. For it to be a good test, it really needs to be someone else choosing rather than me.
I will try set that up.

thanks again
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