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Has anyone actually experienced the "Holy Grail" of Sound - Page 2

Poll Results: Have you experienced the "Holy Grail" of sound

This is a multiple choice poll
  • 20% (14)
    No, I do not have it.
  • 13% (9)
    Yes, I have it.
  • 19% (13)
    Yes, but it is not mine.
  • 1% (1)
    No, but I know someone who has.
  • 42% (29)
    There is no "Holy Grail" - The chase continues!!!
  • 8% (6)
    There is no "Holy Graill" I gave up the chase!!
68 Total Votes  
post #31 of 139
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

What do you want me to refinish and build some out for you? I could do that. I plan on sanding mine down and refinishing them with a new grill cover and some horns in there. Should be pretty epic. They will more than likely go to the rear for back surrounds unless I find that they will work better elsewhere in the house smile.gif
I am with you on that clip, and that is a good song to have as a reference. I have heard Steve Vai well mastered many times and when I get to that point that I have heard at some of his shows, I will be happy.

I was wondering if you wanted to take a listen, but you seem to be in good shape with those. I have mine in original condition right now. A little oil on the cabs and they are about a 7-8 from what I see.

Have you ever ran any sweeps on some of the older stuff?

Keep cranking,

Robert
post #32 of 139
I voted no such thing as the chase keeps going on BUT based on response and THD I am there! I always believe there is better and not with the newer processors. I believe we hit the holy grail with them a while ago and all these features and new codecs are not upgrades at all, just helpful tools. For the masses they help tons but not for the crazies and tweakers like us. I always say once something sounds great it will always sound great.
post #33 of 139
That's why I was thrilled that I could vote for two choices at once: I voted both that I've found it and that it does not exist, because somewhere within that contradiction lies the truth. I've hit the 'Holy Grail' level a few times in the last three decades, just so happens January 2013 is one of those times.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I voted no such thing as the chase keeps going on BUT based on response and THD I am there! I always believe there is better and not with the newer processors. I believe we hit the holy grail with them a while ago and all these features and new codecs are not upgrades at all, just helpful tools. For the masses they help tons but not for the crazies and tweakers like us. I always say once something sounds great it will always sound great.
post #34 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertcharles View Post

I was wondering if you wanted to take a listen, but you seem to be in good shape with those. I have mine in original condition right now. A little oil on the cabs and they are about a 7-8 from what I see.

Have you ever ran any sweeps on some of the older stuff?

Keep cranking,

Robert

Oh nice! Yea mine are not in good enough condition to start out, so the cabs will really be all that is original once it is all said and done. I am missing one tweet and one woofer, in different cabs of course, and the surround on the other woofer is struggling pretty bad. Better to just grab up some new drivers and start from scratch smile.gif
post #35 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I voted no such thing as the chase keeps going on BUT based on response and THD I am there! I always believe there is better and not with the newer processors. I believe we hit the holy grail with them a while ago and all these features and new codecs are not upgrades at all, just helpful tools. For the masses they help tons but not for the crazies and tweakers like us. I always say once something sounds great it will always sound great.

I forget what your entire system consists of...can you give us a refresher.

For me, I am thinking Neosis for LCR and add 2 more CHT 18.2 subs (giving me 4 total) will get me about to my limit. Not sure where I'd go from there...
post #36 of 139
Hey, how do the CHT subs sound?

Right now I have 5.1. My processor is an Ada Cinema Rhapsody, Ada MPA-500 amp, 12 eD 13AV2's drivers with clone FP14K amp, DCX 2496, Dual stacked BFM DR-250's as mains and center with W-8's/T-39's for surrounds.
post #37 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Hey, how do the CHT subs sound?

Right now I have 5.1. My processor is an Ada Cinema Rhapsody, Ada MPA-500 amp, 12 eD 13AV2's drivers with clone FP14K amp, DCX 2496, Dual stacked BFM DR-250's as mains and center with W-8's/T-39's for surrounds.

OK, aside from the clone amp I have no idea what all that equipment is!

My CHT's are great, not dialed in yet and just breaking in. Andrew (Gorilla83) is coming over tomorrow to run a few sweeps, see what's going on and have Audyssey do it's thing. Huge difference compared to my older Caps but it all fairness I do have 4 18" drivers now. Honestly, the system is good but not the hit/punch that Andrew's has. Hard to critique a system that is not tweaked yet and I might need an EQ, who knows.

What I am worried about is what is my next step. This is a far better system than most have heard but the issue is this AVS audience has some great experience! I'm wondering if 2 more CHT's will do it or make a move to the Neosis (is that really worth the $3000 or so??). Also have to factor in how much room I have for additional speakers/subs.

My room is untreated and I still feel that the LCR highs are a bit too in my face and high. I really want a smooth sounding system that offers no fatigue, Just like at a high end rock concert....
post #38 of 139
Room treatment did the most for me of anything I've tried. All my walls and ceiling are covered in fabric, that was huge. If you really, really want that rock concert sound, have you considered high-end P.A. speakers instead?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaNile View Post

OK, aside from the clone amp I have no idea what all that equipment is!

My CHT's are great, not dialed in yet and just breaking in. Andrew (Gorilla83) is coming over tomorrow to run a few sweeps, see what's going on and have Audyssey do it's thing. Huge difference compared to my older Caps but it all fairness I do have 4 18" drivers now. Honestly, the system is good but not the hit/punch that Andrew's has. Hard to critique a system that is not tweaked yet and I might need an EQ, who knows.

What I am worried about is what is my next step. This is a far better system than most have heard but the issue is this AVS audience has some great experience! I'm wondering if 2 more CHT's will do it or make a move to the Neosis (is that really worth the $3000 or so??). Also have to factor in how much room I have for additional speakers/subs.

My room is untreated and I still feel that the LCR highs are a bit too in my face and high. I really want a smooth sounding system that offers no fatigue, Just like at a high end rock concert....
post #39 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Room treatment did the most for me of anything I've tried. All my walls and ceiling are covered in fabric, that was huge. If you really, really want that rock concert sound, have you considered high-end P.A. speakers instead?

That's why I went with the JTR Triple 12 LF 4 years ago when I started this. If the Neosis are a bit smoother I will consider them. Maybe a few acoustical treatments would be wise before spending a few thousand on new LCR speakers.
post #40 of 139
Thread Starter 
I wish I was closer to most of the GTG's. I am way down south in New Orleans and not much action down here for some reason. I do not know anyone who even has a HT. So, not much to listen to but what I go in search of. Hopefully, I will be able to line something up for one of the closer ones.


Keep cranking,

Robert
post #41 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertcharles View Post

I wish I was closer to most of the GTG's. I am way down south in New Orleans and not much action down here for some reason. I do not know anyone who even has a HT. So, not much to listen to but what I go in search of. Hopefully, I will be able to line something up for one of the closer ones.


Keep cranking,

Robert

Direct flights into Philly!
post #42 of 139
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaNile View Post

Direct flights into Philly!

Sounds like a plan.
post #43 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaNile View Post

That's why I went with the JTR Triple 12 LF 4 years ago when I started this. If the Neosis are a bit smoother I will consider them. Maybe a few acoustical treatments would be wise before spending a few thousand on new LCR speakers.

NO, THIS sounds like a plan. Room treatments are paramount in the response of your system...
post #44 of 139
Agreed! Treatments first before any other upgrades, you might just have what you want after all!
post #45 of 139
I voted: yes, have it.

For the most part I am happy with the sound I'm getting. I have no burning desire to have significantly better sound.
Is there better out there? Yes, abosolutely. But it's icing on the cake, IMO.
Do I want to upgrade? Yes.
Do I need to upgrade? No, not really.

If my maths are correct, I've spent $35,000 on my sound system thus far and $20,000 on the room. (and still counting). So it better sound good at this point. eek.gif
I've basically reached the point of diminishing returns, every upgrade that could be considered an "upgrade" for me, costs at least $4000 (or more). So I'm sort of reluctant to commit much further than this line. cool.gif

1. Do you keep the old and enjoy it just the same? I don't enjoy it the same and I keep it if I can find a use for it; otherwise I offload it (secondary system, ebay or family, etc.)

2. Do you discard the old in favor of the new? Not unless it has a value that it provides. I don't upgrade 'just because'.

3. Do you trade up just to get new features with no real increase in performance (just features)? I haven't yet, but I might (depending on the feature), usually I find they come hand in hand (but there's lots useless gimicks out there).
To become HDMI 1.4 compliant (3D), I'd have to spend another $4,000 minimum... so for now HDMI 1.3b will do me...

4. Do you feel that the old stuff is not as good as the products offered today? All my stuff was made after 1998, with an average of 2005ish. So I couldn't really tell you. (I just turned 29.)

5. Do you feel that most equipment upgrades are just not upgrades at all but just trading one for another? Nope, so far all my upgrades have been worthwhile improvements. I select them carefully (with in reason).
post #46 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertcharles View Post

I wish I was closer to most of the GTG's. I am way down south in New Orleans and not much action down here for some reason. I do not know anyone who even has a HT. So, not much to listen to but what I go in search of. Hopefully, I will be able to line something up for one of the closer ones.

Keep cranking,

Robert

I basically live in the Okanogan forest... well almost. You should try finding something where I live!
90,000 square miles with a total population similar to that of New York city (468sq miles), mostly mountain ranges covered with either sage brush or evergreens, and of course, lots of SNOW.
That said, I know people with systems; my boss has one for example. But it's nothing even close to mine or many of the AVS-ers here with top systems.
post #47 of 139
okanogan forest in washington?
post #48 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertcharles View Post

Sounds like a plan.

No, seriously...
post #49 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertcharles View Post

I wish I was closer to most of the GTG's. I am way down south in New Orleans and not much action down here for some reason. I do not know anyone who even has a HT. So, not much to listen to but what I go in search of. Hopefully, I will be able to line something up for one of the closer ones.


Keep cranking,

Robert

I'm in New Orleans, but I only possess a lowly Outlaw LFM-1EX and some CHT PRO-10s. I like ogling the threads here getting ideas for the future when I have space and budget.
post #50 of 139
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by busbeepbeep View Post

I'm in New Orleans, but I only possess a lowly Outlaw LFM-1EX and some CHT PRO-10s. I like ogling the threads here getting ideas for the future when I have space and budget.

Cool. Maybe we can set some demo time up. My theater is about 85% complete, but the parts that are are the ones that rock!!!! Finishing touches still to be addressed.


Keep cranking,

Robert
post #51 of 139
Even if i did have everything I wanted (which I pretty much do), I'd still switch it all out for something different. Thats the fun in the hobby, trying out new gear!
post #52 of 139
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Who found the holy grail?!?!

Whoever you are, I envy you. Also, be sure to avoid auditioning other setups…

Hang on, hummmm… Is this more of a philosophical question?

Holy Grail meaning one's personal satisfaction... or Holy Grail meaning eternal youth?

I guess I was asking about the personal satisfaction or personal experience part, but I guess I was really asking if anyone actually experienced the "Thing" that everyone else would just have to say is the Ultimate if they saw or heard it.

What do you think?

Keep cranking,

Robert
post #53 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

Even if i did have everything I wanted (which I pretty much do), I'd still switch it all out for something different. Thats the fun in the hobby, trying out new gear!

Haha, I am the same. I like trying out every "style" of speaker. I have done the regular commercial offerings, with the fancy tweets, coaxes with the JTR's, line sources now with the LS6's and hopefully this weekend the SEOS horns will be done. For subs I have tried the commercial ported deals, Front loaded horns, heard tapped horns, LLT's and now back to multiple sealed biggrin.gif Each and every time I have heard something different, things I have liked and things I have not.
post #54 of 139
My first grasp of the "holy grail," as in a system that redefined the limits of reproduction of recorded music, was a system designed by a friend in Berlin ca. 1998 for his loft. It used a BMS concentric compression driver (4590?) on a wide 90x40 horn. (I think it was about 22" wide.) Underneath the horns were 15" Beyma woofers that looked tiny under the horns. The front three speakers were identical. The surrounds used simpler (non-concentric) BMS compression drivers on horns, and Beyma woofers. There was a subwoofer with the "cabinet" being the volume under a stairwell, holding a 22" Cabasse woofer. Crossovers were standalone DSP based (BSS Omnidrive, if memory serves).

Prior to that, I had a very negative impression of horn speakers, based largely on some Klipsch home speakers I'd heard and PA system.

I don't know how that would hold up today, as it's going on 15 years since I heard that system and about 7-8 years since I last corresponded with its designer/owner. But I suspect it would hold up pretty well, because based on what I've learned since then it basically gets everything important right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertcharles View Post

1. Do you keep the old and enjoy it just the same?
2. Do you discard the old in favor of the new?

Generally, #2. The big exception is my old reference mains (Tannoy System 12 DMT II guts in Funk Audio cabs), which I've neither discarded (because they're too good) nor use (because they're too wide to fit unobtrusively in my current living room). Also, I suppose I have a rather large collection of currently unused bass drivers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertcharles View Post

3. Do you trade up just to get new features with no real increase in performance (just features)?

Unlike some who have posted on this thread, I dislike buying things. I do not do so unless the new part will offer a material improvement to me. That material improvement could be "performance," that could be "feature," that could be "aesthetic." All improve my satisfaction, so distinguishing between them is uninteresting to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertcharles View Post

4. Do you feel that the old stuff is not as good as the products offered today?

Yes, in the main. But some of the best stuff from times past is still good today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertcharles View Post

5. Do you feel that most equipment upgrades are just not upgrades at all but just trading one for another?

By and large, yes.

Exceptions include upgrades to loudspeakers that throw a consistent midrange pattern, upgrades to sources that allow the user to play more/different formats, and upgrades to or electronics that offer rmodern room correction software and/or for modern loudness compensation software.
post #55 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Room treatment did the most for me of anything I've tried. All my walls and ceiling are covered in fabric, that was huge. If you really, really want that rock concert sound, have you considered high-end P.A. speakers instead?

Interesting.

I've heard those extensively, they're nice (they've been around a long time), ... and yeah, they'll give you that "rock concert sound"*.

Here's an improvement;
Take that dynamic, seemingly endless capability characteristic, that's oft associated with well made pro offerings, .... strip away the cabinet resonance, touch of harshness, the subtle irregularities caused by edge diffraction etc.

Use an essentialy inert, minimal diffraction cabinet design. Then with on-board, highly optimized DSP contouring, smooth the response, and re-align and add a total coherence top to bottom with respect to time/signal alignment (this elicits a sense of broadband speed). Use a coaxial pro two-way to eliminate any possible problems that may occur with three sources spaced in a less than optimal manner. Throw in two of the finest high excursion, mid-woofer drivers available, in a controlled/sealed alignment, high passed so there is no issues with the highest playback level. What do you get? The Seaton Catalyst12C.

I've mixed FOH over every conceivablly sized sound system one can imagine. The Cats have all that incredible power, with all the nuance, coherence, and detail needed.


If one is interested in pro designs for the HT, ping me, ..perhaps I can help, I've got some opinions. The SEOS based stuff, as long as they're well executed/constructed, would most likely keep just about anyone happy for a long time.


Thanks

*the equipt, and what's availed to pros and live work these days is extremely high quality, .... but it's all about the room .... eek.gif
post #56 of 139
That's exactly what I am going for at home - the Xploders are powered by 3 separate DSP amps, for control of time alignment and EQ. Inside the cabs I did a total makeover with increased bracing and internal lining. I covered the horns in about 20lbs of duct putty (each) making them much less susceptible to resonance. I 'rounded' all the hard internal edges using 'great stuff'. I plugged the horn's throat with a bit of aquarium foam. I doubled-up the front baffle and carpeted it. I added the top module so I'd have three 12" drivers closely-spaced around the tweeter, and I used 12" drivers that allowed for a robust 2-way design with plenty of efficiency and power handling. It's been a long process, but at this point the cabinets are 'invisible' to the ear and stereo imaging is as precise as a pair of high-end bookshelf or tower speakers.

edit - fourth day in a row the Xploders have sounded 'perfect'. I've got the time alignment down to the inch for the absolute sweet spot. REW measurements are looking good, and the real world results - I'm not even sure what's going on because it's ridiculous. Sure there are thousands of bucks and hundreds of hours sunk into them, but even though they are a longtime work in progress, last week's revamp has really upped the ante. I'm right in the middle of a 'holy grail' moment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Interesting.

I've heard those extensively, they're nice (they've been around a long time), ... and yeah, they'll give you that "rock concert sound"*.

Here's an improvement;
Take that dynamic, seemingly endless capability characteristic, that's oft associated with well made pro offerings, .... strip away the cabinet resonance, touch of harshness, the subtle irregularities caused by edge diffraction etc.

Use an essentialy inert, minimal diffraction cabinet design. Then with on-board, highly optimized DSP contouring, smooth the response, and re-align and add a total coherence top to bottom with respect to time/signal alignment (this elicits a sense of broadband speed). Use a coaxial pro two-way to eliminate any possible problems that may occur with three sources spaced in a less than optimal manner. Throw in two of the finest high excursion, mid-woofer drivers available, in a controlled/sealed alignment, high passed so there is no issues with the highest playback level. What do you get? The Seaton Catalyst12C.

I've mixed FOH over every conceivablly sized sound system one can imagine. The Cats have all that incredible power, with all the nuance, coherence, and detail needed.


If one is interested in pro designs for the HT, ping me, ..perhaps I can help, I've got some opinions. The SEOS based stuff, as long as they're well executed/constructed, would most likely keep just about anyone happy for a long time.


Thanks

*the equipt, and what's availed to pros and live work these days is extremely high quality, .... but it's all about the room .... eek.gif

Edited by imagic - 1/16/13 at 4:19pm
post #57 of 139
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

Even if i did have everything I wanted (which I pretty much do), I'd still switch it all out for something different. Thats the fun in the hobby, trying out new gear!

Even the 2242's?


I hope you are enjoying them.


Keep cranking,

Robert
post #58 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertcharles View Post

Even the 2242's?


I hope you are enjoying them.


Keep cranking,

Robert

O ya they are great but who knows what the future will bring. When I get my proper room, I'll be putting them in their proper sized ported boxes and maybe even grabbing a few more smile.gif
post #59 of 139
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

That's exactly what I am going for at home - the Xploders are powered by 3 separate DSP amps, for control of time alignment and EQ. Inside the cabs I did a total makeover with increased bracing and internal lining. I covered the horns in about 20lbs of duct putty (each) making them much less susceptible to resonance. I 'rounded' all the hard internal edges using 'great stuff'. I plugged the horn's throat with a bit of aquarium foam. I doubled-up the front baffle and carpeted it. I added the top module so I'd have three 12" drivers closely-spaced around the tweeter, and I used 12" drivers that allowed for a robust 2-way design with plenty of efficiency and power handling. It's been a long process, but at this point the cabinets are 'invisible' to the ear and stereo imaging is as precise as a pair of high-end bookshelf or tower speakers.

edit - fourth day in a row the Xploders have sounded 'perfect'. I've got the time alignment down to the inch for the absolute sweet spot. REW measurements are looking good, and the real world results - I'm not even sure what's going on because it's ridiculous. Sure there are thousands of bucks and hundreds of hours sunk into them, but even though they are a longtime work in progress, last week's revamp has really upped the ante. I'm right in the middle of a 'holy grail' moment.

Is there a certain music/ movie or is it just ubiquitous?

Keep cranking,

Robert
post #60 of 139
I was just talking about that with my wife, about how one reporter who covers the 'extreme high end' joked that after a certain point, audiophiles 'lose all taste in music' as they start to hunt for recordings that 'sound right' on their systems. So far, I have been enjoying (almost) everything to the point where I am being more adventurous in my listening... so it is ubiquitous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertcharles View Post

Is there a certain music/ movie or is it just ubiquitous?

Keep cranking,

Robert
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