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Possible New Build- LMS-5400 or B&C 21SW152

post #1 of 47
1/14/13 at 1:23pm
Thread Starter 
Looking at a possible new sub build for my home theatre, and am in need of advise/suggestions. I have all the tools and some carpentry experience but have never built a speaker before so please keep the terminology noob friendly.

Current system consists of: (All Paradigm) 2xStudio 100's, 1xStudio CC-690 4xSA-35 in walls, 2xADP 590's and 2xRVC-12SQ in wall subs powered by an x-850 amp. Room size is 20-0x31-0x7-6 in a sealed basement with carpet, no room treatments. Sub will be exposed so aesthetics are important.

I would like to start with one sub first, either dual front firing or dual opposed sealed. The two subs I am most interested in at this time are the 18" LMS 5400-Ultra or the B&C 21SW152, have read all kinds of reviews on the Ultra but very little on the B&C. Will also need an amp to power these.

I am located in Ontario, Canada so shipping will be a factor in my decisions. Have also looked into Funk Audio.

Thank you in advance,

Jamey
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post #2 of 47
1/14/13 at 2:06pm
I would go with the LMS-Ultra option. The B&C, while having very good displacement, is more of a woofer and not a proper HT subwoofer.

If the LMS-U fails to put a smile on your face, blame your mains. Or add more Ultra's. biggrin.gif
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post #3 of 47
1/14/13 at 3:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northernmax View Post

Looking at a possible new sub build for my home theatre, and am in need of advise/suggestions. I have all the tools and some carpentry experience but have never built a speaker before so please keep the terminology noob friendly.

Current system consists of: (All Paradigm) 2xStudio 100's, 1xStudio CC-690 4xSA-35 in walls, 2xADP 590's and 2xRVC-12SQ in wall subs powered by an x-850 amp. Room size is 20-0x31-0x7-6 in a sealed basement with carpet, no room treatments. Sub will be exposed so aesthetics are important.

I would like to start with one sub first, either dual front firing or dual opposed sealed. The two subs I am most interested in at this time are the 18" LMS 5400-Ultra or the B&C 21SW152, have read all kinds of reviews on the Ultra but very little on the B&C. Will also need an amp to power these.

I am located in Ontario, Canada so shipping will be a factor in my decisions. Have also looked into Funk Audio.

Thank you in advance,

Jamey

I have been so satisfied with the LMS. You will be very impressed. What kind of SPL are you shooting for? Lots of power needed for it to really kick. It is really well built and has all the attributes of a quality piece of gear.


Keep cranking,

Robert
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post #4 of 47
1/14/13 at 3:40pm
I have never tried anything B&C but I am sure it is fine gear.
However, I can tell you that I am totally satisfied with my LMSs. While they are not 21"ers, they do have amazing power/thermal handling and very low THD. You can't go wrong with a proven performer.
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post #5 of 47
1/14/13 at 3:54pm
Like most other LMS owners have alredy said, I've been COMPLETELY happy with my 4pk of Ultra's.


But being in Canada I'd check out http://www.istonline.ca/
Edited by edoggrc51 - 1/14/13 at 4:32pm
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post #6 of 47
1/14/13 at 4:24pm
Why not just get the UXL-18?
It's one of the better 18" drivers tested on data-bass, and it's available shipped in Canada for $500 (I'm also in Ontario).
2 of them will beat an LMS.
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post #7 of 47
1/14/13 at 4:35pm
The UXL is not in stock.
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post #8 of 47
1/14/13 at 8:05pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the advice so far,

I mentioned the B&C because of the reviews at Data-bass and have found them locally for several hundred less than the Ultras after shipping, If however I would achieve better performance with the Ultras then that is the route I will take. Subs will be used mainly for home theatre, perhaps 80/20.

There are a lot of good Ultra builds on this forum, anyone have any regrets or things you wish you had done different? Sub(s) will be located in the front stage, what would achieve better results; dual front firing or opposed? What amp?

Jamey
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post #9 of 47
1/15/13 at 6:14am
I enjoy mine every chance I get. I am running a Crown CE4000.
However, I also have a Danley DTS-10 in the mix on another CE4000. With that I have much, much more capacity than my ears can take.
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post #10 of 47
1/15/13 at 6:42am
Some users have dented their cone through over-excursion, seems to be the main thing to look out for with the LMS. In light of the excellent performance from a couple of recently released 18" subwoofers; you might want to consider some other options unless you've got funds to spare, but not room to spare. The Dayton 18" HO is notable for looking good as well as performing well for 1/4 the price. A pair of Dayton 18" HO does sound better/more intense than a single LMS - I witnessed that in a side-by-side comparison at a recent GTG. For the price of a single LMS, you could have four 18" drivers and build twin subs.

That's the 'devil's advocate' argument. In practice, most folks who get the LMS don't regret it, they end up buying more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northernmax View Post

Thanks for the advice so far,

I mentioned the B&C because of the reviews at Data-bass and have found them locally for several hundred less than the Ultras after shipping, If however I would achieve better performance with the Ultras then that is the route I will take. Subs will be used mainly for home theatre, perhaps 80/20.

There are a lot of good Ultra builds on this forum, anyone have any regrets or things you wish you had done different? Sub(s) will be located in the front stage, what would achieve better results; dual front firing or opposed? What amp?

Jamey
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post #11 of 47
1/15/13 at 8:12am
I guess I can chime in a little as I have 2 Ultra's and just recently picked up a dayton for my bed room. I like them both really but the Ultra has a nice advantage without EQ as the Dayton seems to roll off pretty hard below 35hz at least in their current 4cu ft box. This is easily heard and measured. I'll be adding a second one with a minidsp to finish out my bedroom setup for sure. I'll still be adding 2 more Ultra's to my home theater/living room setup as space is obviously a concern and I really do like the way the subs play straight out of the box.
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post #12 of 47
1/15/13 at 8:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northernmax View Post

There are a lot of good Ultra builds on this forum, anyone have any regrets or things you wish you had done different? Sub(s) will be located in the front stage, what would achieve better results; dual front firing or opposed? What amp?
I have a dual-opposed (~180l) and a smaller single (~70l) and would definitely promote a smaller box for these subs, as they can certainly handle the occasional marginally higher power demand. Only reasons to go larger are if you want to for some reason, or if power is limited. And then multiples of SIs or Daytons or other might make more sense. All told, love my LMSs, but if SIs or Daytons had been available back when, I likely would have done a 4x2 (or, dare I dream, more!) of those. The way I see it, you really want three or more separately placed subs if possible. Yeah, yeah, only one has to be big, but still...
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post #13 of 47
1/16/13 at 4:35am
Shan87, I believe that if your Dayton HO18 is rolling off at 35hz, there is some sort of problem. These Dayton HO18's should go down well below 18hz, and that is being conservative.

Northernmax, I recommend going with 4 Dayton HO18's over a single LMS-Ultra.
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post #14 of 47
1/16/13 at 6:44am
Never said it wouldn't play that low just that for it to be useable you're going to have to do a little bit more eqing to bring it out with the rest of the frequencies... Still have to do the same for the ultra just not until subsonic freqs imo. Room could obviously be playing a roll in this but I checked it up close and the dayton is in a small room while the ultra is in a huge room so I think the dayton would see more gain anyway.
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post #15 of 47
1/16/13 at 7:10am
The issue is that the LMS is throwing usable power away to achieve that linearity, so there's no efficiency benefit vs. the Dayton & additional EQ. Once you get into multiples of the Dayton vs. LMS - and the pricing makes it a 4:1 proposition - there should be even less need to EQ. The Dayton could use a bit more space in a sealed configuration than the LMS.

I gotta be honest, dollar for dollar the LMS was the least impressive subwoofer driver I've heard this year. It looked amazing. Full excursion on the LMS is scary, however it does not surprise me that folks need multiples of them to get satisfactory output. It's a terrible thing to have to say, but I want to be honest about my personal impressions. I jokingly refer to it as either 'The Barbara Streisand Subwoofer' and/or 'The Emperors New Subwoofer". That's my sense of humor, LMS owners, please don't bite my head off. It makes bass, I won't deny that. But there is a disconnect between the amount power it is being fed, the amount of excursion the driver exhibits when it is being pushed... and the amount of bass that comes out of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan87 View Post

Never said it wouldn't play that low just that for it to be useable you're going to have to do a little bit more eqing to bring it out with the rest of the frequencies... Still have to do the same for the ultra just not until subsonic freqs imo. Room could obviously be playing a roll in this but I checked it up close and the dayton is in a small room while the ultra is in a huge room so I think the dayton would see more gain anyway.

Edited by imagic - 1/16/13 at 8:51am
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post #16 of 47
1/16/13 at 10:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

But there is a disconnect between the amount power it is being fed, the amount of excursion the driver exhibits when it is being pushed... and the amount of bass that comes out of it.

For a given LF output, the LMS allows a smaller box than most subs. That's one thing you're paying for which many people opt not to exploit. The other thing, which I believe affects perceived output as you allude to, is that it's also one of the quietest drivers in terms of distortion and just plain driver noise. As far as physics go, in a sealed box, if it's doing the excursion, it's gotta be putting out the sound. Not an unconditional fanboy by any means; there was just no real alternative for my particular situation 5(?!) years ago. Like I said, would prolly do it differently now.
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post #17 of 47
1/16/13 at 10:20am
100% agree
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlag View Post

For a given LF output, the LMS allows a smaller box than most subs. That's one thing you're paying for which many people opt not to exploit. The other thing, which I believe affects perceived output as you allude to, is that it's also one of the quietest drivers in terms of distortion and just plain driver noise. As far as physics go, in a sealed box, if it's doing the excursion, it's gotta be putting out the sound. Not an unconditional fanboy by any means; there was just no real alternative for my particular situation 5(?!) years ago. Like I said, would prolly do it differently now.
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post #18 of 47
1/16/13 at 5:50pm
Thread Starter 
With the LMS I feel like the donkey with the carrot dangling in front of his nose, every path seems to lead to that dam carrot.
I do however see the value proposition of the other suggestions. What would be an efficient box size for a single cab dual front firing Dayton set-up as compared to a similar box with Ultra's? I would like to keep the boxes as shallow as possible, width and height are not so much of a concern.
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post #19 of 47
1/16/13 at 7:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlag View Post

For a given LF output, the LMS allows a smaller box than most subs. That's one thing you're paying for which many people opt not to exploit. The other thing, which I believe affects perceived output as you allude to, is that it's also one of the quietest drivers in terms of distortion and just plain driver noise. As far as physics go, in a sealed box, if it's doing the excursion, it's gotta be putting out the sound. Not an unconditional fanboy by any means; there was just no real alternative for my particular situation 5(?!) years ago. Like I said, would prolly do it differently now.

You make an excellent point about the LMS Ultra when it comes to distortion. Distortion adds volume so the lack of it does not sound as loud so that is the main reason the LMS Ultra is best used in multiples. I had a pair of LMS Ultra's and while it was outstanding I still wanted more output even though it was plenty for most people. A buddy of mine went from a pair which was great to quad LMS Ultra's and the difference was stunning, I wish I had done the same thing. He has told me that when he does demo's that some people don't like it so he just adds a boost in the 30 or 50hz range then people are happy. People are generally used to distorted bass and when subs are EQ'ed properly they tend to not like it at first as well.

Even though I don't have them anymore the LMS Ultra is one of the best subs I have ever owned. The RE XXX 18 is very similar in that it doesn't sound as loud due to the lack of distortion but boy does it hit low, the only sub that rattles the cabinets in the other room to audible levels.

I have 4 Dayton HO 18's and 2 (soon to be 4) SI 18's but they still don't equal the sound quality my buddy has with his LMS Ultra's but there still pretty good.
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post #20 of 47
1/16/13 at 7:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northernmax View Post

With the LMS I feel like the donkey with the carrot dangling in front of his nose, every path seems to lead to that dam carrot.
I do however see the value proposition of the other suggestions. What would be an efficient box size for a single cab dual front firing Dayton set-up as compared to a similar box with Ultra's? I would like to keep the boxes as shallow as possible, width and height are not so much of a concern.

It depends on how much power you are using but about 6.5 to 8 cuft is a good size for the dual Daytons. The LMS Ultra you can have as small as you can physically make a box for an 18" sub, probably about 3cuft but I made mine 4cuft.
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post #21 of 47
1/17/13 at 1:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post



I have 4 Dayton HO 18's and 2 (soon to be 4) SI 18's but they still don't equal the sound quality my buddy has with his LMS Ultra's but there still pretty good.

frown.gif

No bueno.
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post #22 of 47
1/17/13 at 3:30am
It's very important to know the "your room response" beacause room gain could be a factor, in my situation 2x21" shake the house and in the >50hz range there's no comparison with a 5400.
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post #23 of 47
1/17/13 at 3:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

It depends on how much power you are using but about 6.5 to 8 cuft is a good size for the dual Daytons. The LMS Ultra you can have as small as you can physically make a box for an 18" sub, probably about 3cuft but I made mine 4cuft.
Hey mj, whatever came of that Comparison you guys did last Saturday? I can't remember what thread it was in. Or was it THIS Saturday your doing it?
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post #24 of 47
1/17/13 at 9:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

Hey mj, whatever came of that Comparison you guys did last Saturday? I can't remember what thread it was in. Or was it THIS Saturday your doing it?

I was still recovering from the flu and my buddy with the LMS Ultra's had a family thing come up so he couldn't attend, it was just a quick gtg with a Submersive added. I really was foggy in the head still from the flu so the comparison was not level matched or in the same position. We need to do another comparison in the future when all our schedules align which is not easy.

Shayne who has a pair of submersives is thinking of replacing them with LMS Ultra's in the future as we discussed how clean and articulate the LMS Ultra's sound. He has a pair of Submersives and after hearing the quad LMS Ultra's he knows what he is missing. He was thinking about either the SI's or Daytons as well but we both agreed that the added expense for the LMS Ultra's was worth it.
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post #25 of 47
1/17/13 at 9:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

frown.gif

No bueno.

The SI's and Daytons are still great subs Scott, 99% of the people out there would be happy. Actually I would bet more people would prefer a quad SI/Dayton set-up over a pair of LMS ultra's due to the added mid-bass and perceived loudness due to the added distortion. Really it is not fair to compare a $925 driver to $190 to $250 subs anyway, we should all expect those results. The RE XXX 18 is better as well and get low better than them all, but you already know that wink.gif
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post #26 of 47
1/17/13 at 11:40am
Don't count the Daytons out in multiples man. The cost savings in substantial in my book. Even two sealed Dayton HO18s sound great, an I am really picky about giving compliments. I went through multiple "high end" auditions still unsatisfied with what I heard. I only have two of my Daytons finished, so that is all I can comment on, but even two is fairly impressive.
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post #27 of 47
1/17/13 at 12:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Don't count the Daytons out in multiples man.

Sometimes you just dont have the room, or WAF comes into play when doing lots of multiples. In my case since Im limited by space, I had to maximize the room I had available.
Edited by edoggrc51 - 1/17/13 at 1:25pm
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post #28 of 47
1/17/13 at 12:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post

Sometimes you just dont have the room, or WAF comes into play when doing lots of multiples. In my case since Im limited by space, so I had to maximize the room I had available.

And maximize it you did tongue.gif
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post #29 of 47
1/17/13 at 12:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post

Sometimes you just dont have the room, or WAF comes into play when doing lots of multiples. In my case since Im limited by space, so I had to maximize the room I had available.

I agree 100%. Sometimes I forget that its a factor. Don't get me wrong, she says things, I just usually do stuff first and then I'm like, " well I'm not gonna get rid of it". Anyone want to start the benefit fund for my divorce attorney??
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post #30 of 47
1/17/13 at 1:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

You make an excellent point about the LMS Ultra when it comes to distortion. Distortion adds volume so the lack of it does not sound as loud so that is the main reason the LMS Ultra is best used in multiples. I had a pair of LMS Ultra's and while it was outstanding I still wanted more output even though it was plenty for most people. A buddy of mine went from a pair which was great to quad LMS Ultra's and the difference was stunning, I wish I had done the same thing. He has told me that when he does demo's that some people don't like it so he just adds a boost in the 30 or 50hz range then people are happy. People are generally used to distorted bass and when subs are EQ'ed properly they tend to not like it at first as well.

Even though I don't have them anymore the LMS Ultra is one of the best subs I have ever owned. The RE XXX 18 is very similar in that it doesn't sound as loud due to the lack of distortion but boy does it hit low, the only sub that rattles the cabinets in the other room to audible levels.

I have 4 Dayton HO 18's and 2 (soon to be 4) SI 18's but they still don't equal the sound quality my buddy has with his LMS Ultra's but there still pretty good.

Wasn't there a discussion on this before? when everyone was giving the LMS-U praise as the god driver. (not meaning to be rude)

I'm pretty sure last time Bosso chimed in saying how, when the systems are EQ'd to the same point, there should be no "SQ" difference, assuming the drivers have at least relatively close distortion characteristics.
And also that 99% of what we hear is SPL related.

Something along those lines.... I don't remember.

It just seems that everyone saying it "sounds" better could just be the flat response.... the LMS should not have ANY advantage over say.... 2 or 3 Daytons or SI's.
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