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Official Vizio M-Series Razor Mxx1i thread - Page 201

post #6001 of 8760
Hey guys question about game mode. If I prefer standard or vivid when gaming, as long as all advanced settings like smooth motion are off, I shouldn't get any input lag right? Or are there things turned off in game mode behind the scenes?
post #6002 of 8760
Quote:
Originally Posted by brshoemak View Post

I had it set to TV as the source while the optical cable was connected and it was working, but I'm not sure if I tried that while I used JUST an HDMI cable. I'm not sure how I missed that part on page 13 in the HK manual, but that sounds like the fix. Thanks.

lol yeah, I think the TV input probably doesn't even use the optical input port, so that's probably it. smile.gif
post #6003 of 8760
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayissuperman View Post

Hey guys question about game mode. If I prefer standard or vivid when gaming, as long as all advanced settings like smooth motion are off, I shouldn't get any input lag right? Or are there things turned off in game mode behind the scenes?

No. I believe GAME mode turns off a lot of stuff behind the scenes beyond what you see on the menus. So turning everything off in the other modes does not make them equivalent to GAME mode. And turning everything ON in GAME mode does not make it equivalent to any other mode. As an example, there is no way to get the "Soap Opera Effect" in GAME no matter what your advanced settings are (this is one reason why many prefer the GAME mode for regular viewing as well).

Now, this doesn't mean you couldn't be happy with any of the other modes and everything turned off, you are going to have to try with the specific things you watch/play.
post #6004 of 8760
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94 View Post

lol yeah, I think the TV input probably doesn't even use the optical input port, so that's probably it. smile.gif

Actually on the HK, the default source for TV is the optical input port for audio.
post #6005 of 8760
Just got this tv and so far I love it. no complaints yet :-)
post #6006 of 8760
Quote:
Originally Posted by barett View Post

Just got this tv and so far I love it. no complaints yet :-)

Which one?
post #6007 of 8760
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Lashinski View Post

RojasTKD, wtf happened there? My M50 comes tomorrow. I hope mine doesn't have this problem.

I have no idea. Set it up today night and all was fine. cane home Wednesday night and turned it on and all was fine. was feeding the forums on my laptop and when I look up the picture is gone. Took to my local best buy and tried to exchange it., but someone just bought the last one as I was walking in. frown.gif

So I ended up upgrading to an open box 55" model (M551D) for $300 more. I'll set it up tonight and see how it goes.
post #6008 of 8760
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigcat View Post

No. I believe GAME mode turns off a lot of stuff behind the scenes beyond what you see on the menus. So turning everything off in the other modes does not make them equivalent to GAME mode. And turning everything ON in GAME mode does not make it equivalent to any other mode.

I also believed that GAME mode might turn off stuff "behind the scenes" (things that otherwise can't be turned off or adjusted) as that is the case on many TVs, however in my testing of a M501 there was absolutely no evidence of this when comparing with CALIBRATED mode. Normally the shutting down of additional processing on the GAME mode creates some detectible differences in results of some of the test patterns available on the Spears & Munsil disc. On the Vizio it did not. The one mode that did create a detectible improvement was COMPUTER, so I believe it actually is shutting down something behind the scenes that otherwise is not user adjustable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lotohnz View Post

The reason why some of us have gravitated to "Game" mode is that, even though "Game" mode disables video processing, enabling "Smooth Motion" apparently still ups the panel's refresh rate to 240hz, but without the Motion Estimation/Motion Compensation that causes the soap opera effect. This hasn't been "officially" stated or confirmed, but having owned the TV since June I can say there is absolutely a difference (lack of "soap opera effect") between "Game" and "Calibrated" modes, all settings identical, "Smooth Motion" on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigcat View Post

As an example, there is no way to get the "Soap Opera Effect" in GAME no matter what your advanced settings are (this is one reason why many prefer the GAME mode for regular viewing as well).

It sounds very likely to me that GAME mode is disabling the "Smooth Motion" function regardless of where it is set. Motion interpolation (which is what Smooth Motion is) does most definitely cause a lag because it has to buffer frames in order to have enough information to interpolate the intermediate frames, so it would not be welcome on game mode. Based on what both of you are reporting, I highly suspect that there is no difference between "Game" mode with smooth motion on, and "Game" mode with smooth motion off. I will try to investigate this the next time I mess with the TV.

I can tell you that on "Computer" mode with a 24fps source that the video lags 1 frame (app 42ms) behind the audio from a Sony BDP-S5100 as an HDMI source. I set the audio delay on the Sony to compensate for this.
post #6009 of 8760
I wish there were a way to set the video to delay on the TV because I'm still getting bad audio lags when viewing DirecTV thru HDMI to the TV, then optical audio from the TV to the AVR.

It was very apparent in once scene of that Challenger Disaster docudrama on Science/Discovery a few weeks back, when the professor was slapping his hand on the arm of the chair, and the sound of each hit definitely came at least a couple of tenths of a second after you see his finger hit the surface. When I watched the same program in MKV format on my computer and streamed to the TV through a DLNA media server, there was no such audio lagging.

KC how were you able to determine the length of the video lag when viewing your BRD source?
post #6010 of 8760

I picked up a M601d-A3R from Amazon.  I also have this hardware input lag tester: http://www.leobodnar.com/products/LagTest/

 

The 60" has 40ms of input lag in Game picture mode.  Other modes are between 135-140ms, which is actually quite significant.

 

For comparison, this is a pretty good list of input lag in various TVs: http://www.displaylag.com/display-database/ (they use the same hardware tester).

post #6011 of 8760
Quote:
Originally Posted by KC-Technerd View Post

I also believed that GAME mode might turn off stuff "behind the scenes" (things that otherwise can't be turned off or adjusted) as that is the case on many TVs, however in my testing of a M501 there was absolutely no evidence of this when comparing with CALIBRATED mode. Normally the shutting down of additional processing on the GAME mode creates some detectible differences in results of some of the test patterns available on the Spears & Munsil disc. On the Vizio it did not. The one mode that did create a detectible improvement was COMPUTER, so I believe it actually is shutting down something behind the scenes that otherwise is not user adjustable.

It sounds very likely to me that GAME mode is disabling the "Smooth Motion" function regardless of where it is set. Motion interpolation (which is what Smooth Motion is) does most definitely cause a lag because it has to buffer frames in order to have enough information to interpolate the intermediate frames, so it would not be welcome on game mode. Based on what both of you are reporting, I highly suspect that there is no difference between "Game" mode with smooth motion on, and "Game" mode with smooth motion off. I will try to investigate this the next time I mess with the TV.

I can tell you that on "Computer" mode with a 24fps source that the video lags 1 frame (app 42ms) behind the audio from a Sony BDP-S5100 as an HDMI source. I set the audio delay on the Sony to compensate for this.

The difference I see is that in "Game" mode with "Smooth Motion" off, I was seeing motion artifacts during sports and movies, especially during quick diagonal movements. I haven't noticed any since tuning "Smooth Motion" on in "Game" mode. Thus the extrapolation about the refresh rate being raised to 240hz with "Smooth Motion" on.

Interested in getting your take.
post #6012 of 8760


So here's the set before turning the screws at with the backlight set at 82



Here's the set after turning the screws to loosen the backlight is set at 48



Barely any uniformity..

Thoughts?
post #6013 of 8760
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94 View Post

I wish there were a way to set the video to delay on the TV because I'm still getting bad audio lags when viewing DirecTV thru HDMI to the TV, then optical audio from the TV to the AVR.

It was very apparent in once scene of that Challenger Disaster docudrama on Science/Discovery a few weeks back, when the professor was slapping his hand on the arm of the chair, and the sound of each hit definitely came at least a couple of tenths of a second after you see his finger hit the surface. When I watched the same program in MKV format on my computer and streamed to the TV through a DLNA media server, there was no such audio lagging.

KC how were you able to determine the length of the video lag when viewing your BRD source?

I used the A/V sync patterns on the Spears & Munsil disc along with an iPhone/iPad app called "CatchinSync". The app is limited by the frame rate of the camera on the iPhone, but in taking several samples I'm able to get pretty accurate. It takes a bit of patience to get accuracy, but it's tremendously cheaper than the professional equipment for measuring A/V sync.
post #6014 of 8760
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94 View Post

Which one?

I got the m501d
post #6015 of 8760
Hey Guys...contemplating something here. I'm able to get a phenomenal deal at work on a Sony TV. Currently I have the 50 inch M Series Model.

It's a Sony R550A and I can get it for less than what I paid on Black Friday for the Vizio. What would you guys do in this situation?
post #6016 of 8760
Quote:
Originally Posted by lotohnz View Post

The difference I see is that in "Game" mode with "Smooth Motion" off, I was seeing motion artifacts during sports and movies, especially during quick diagonal movements. I haven't noticed any since tuning "Smooth Motion" on in "Game" mode. Thus the extrapolation about the refresh rate being raised to 240hz with "Smooth Motion" on.

Interested in getting your take.

Interesting. According to CNET, the true refresh rate on this TV is 120hz, just as the true refresh rate is 60hz on the E-series despite being advertised as an effective 120hz rate. Regardless, simply upping the refresh rate on a constantly displaying technology (in other words, the pixels are always lit and they just transition from one frame to the next without having a darkness in-between) such as an LCD display like the Vizio, there should be no difference in motion or image quality between refresh rates as long as the refresh rate is a multiple of the field or frame rate. 120hz and 240hz are multiples of the 60hz field rate and of the 30fps frame rate. Lets compare a 30 frame per second moving picture displayed at 60hz and 120hz refresh rates. At 60hz the frame is shown twice for 1/60th of a second each with no space in-between, and at 120 the frame is shown 4 times for 1/120th of a second. The end result is exactly the same. The image of the one single frame is on the screen for 1/30th of a second.

The advantages of the higher refresh rate only come into play when something else is done to keep all 2, 4 or 8 of the refreshes from displaying exactly the same frame. One is motion interpolation (smooth motion) where the TV's processor uses interpolation to estimate what frames between those at 1/30th of a second would be. Then it takes those and replaces some of the repeating refreshes of the same frame with those interpolated frames so that the image is actually changing with each refresh. This is what causes soap opera effect. The other is dark frame insertion (which I don't believe is used on the Vizio) where instead of showing the same frame for multiple refreshes, it alternates between showing the frame and either a darkened or completely black frame (similar to the shutter opening and closing on a movie projector). I'm sorry if this is difficult to follow. It is somewhat difficult to fully illustrate verbally without getting terribly long winded. In actuality "Smooth Motion" most likely does not change the refresh rate at all (even if it does it doesn't make any difference by itself), but only changes how the TV makes use of the panel's 120 or 240hz refresh rate.

So far I've not read anything that explains "effective" refresh rates with any understandability, but I know they are being advertised at rates higher than the true refresh rates the displays are actually capable of.
post #6017 of 8760
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew1785 View Post

Barely any uniformity..

Thoughts?

I'm not 100% certain by what you mean by "Barely any uniformity". Uniformity means that everything on the screen is the same. So with a black screen every spot on the screen should be the same level of black with no shifts in color or brightness. If one side of the screen is a lot brighter than the other then the uniformity is poor. The same if one corner is bright, or if the center is bright and the edges are dark. In your photos they all look pretty much the same to me as far as uniformity is concerned. It looks like the upper right corner may be a bit brighter than everything else. The TV I calibrated was similar in the lower right corner.

Edit: I just went back and read your previous post on this. With edge lit LED I'm not certain if you can get any better uniformity. I can't really judge how bad it is from your photos, but it doesn't look too bad to me. I don't know if anyone else here has significantly better black level uniformity. I certainly have seen TVs that were worse.
Edited by KC-Technerd - 12/5/13 at 5:51pm
post #6018 of 8760
Is it just me or does the 65 inch look more vibrant and clear compared to the other sizes?
post #6019 of 8760
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94 View Post

I wish there were a way to set the video to delay on the TV because I'm still getting bad audio lags when viewing DirecTV thru HDMI to the TV, then optical audio from the TV to the AVR.

It was very apparent in once scene of that Challenger Disaster docudrama on Science/Discovery a few weeks back, when the professor was slapping his hand on the arm of the chair, and the sound of each hit definitely came at least a couple of tenths of a second after you see his finger hit the surface. When I watched the same program in MKV format on my computer and streamed to the TV through a DLNA media server, there was no such audio lagging.

KC how were you able to determine the length of the video lag when viewing your BRD source?

I also have the same set-up as you. DirecTV with HDMI going to TV and Optical going to AVR. I discovered that when listening thru the TV speakers, you have to switch off Dolby Digital in the DirecTV menu in order for the sound to stay in sync with the picture. For me, Dolby plays fine thru the AVR with no sync issues. I have the M601.
post #6020 of 8760
I just watched a 3D movie through Verizon FiOS and it looked terrible on my 50 inch. Ghosting and unclear images.

Is this normal?

I'm grabbing the PS3 from my girlfriends this week and watching some Blu Ray 3D Movies (IMAX HUBBLE) to see if it gets any better.

If not I'm returning it.
post #6021 of 8760
Quote:
Originally Posted by johndoejohndoes View Post

I just watched a 3D movie through Verizon FiOS and it looked terrible on my 50 inch. Ghosting and unclear images.

Is this normal?

I'm grabbing the PS3 from my girlfriends this week and watching some Blu Ray 3D Movies (IMAX HUBBLE) to see if it gets any better.

If not I'm returning it.
Is it calibrated? Is smart dimming on?
post #6022 of 8760
Quote:
Originally Posted by johndoejohndoes View Post

I just watched a 3D movie through Verizon FiOS and it looked terrible on my 50 inch. Ghosting and unclear images.

Is this normal?

I'm grabbing the PS3 from my girlfriends this week and watching some Blu Ray 3D Movies (IMAX HUBBLE) to see if it gets any better.

If not I'm returning it.

Doesn't sound normal. I watched Tangled 3D on a Sony 3D BRD player and it looked really amazing, even with the TV straight out of the box.
post #6023 of 8760
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorVideo View Post

I also have the same set-up as you. DirecTV with HDMI going to TV and Optical going to AVR. I discovered that when listening thru the TV speakers, you have to switch off Dolby Digital in the DirecTV menu in order for the sound to stay in sync with the picture. For me, Dolby plays fine thru the AVR with no sync issues. I have the M601.

I just switched to Computer and the lip sync issues seem to much less or even none at all.
post #6024 of 8760
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthewwww View Post

I picked up a M601d-A3R from Amazon.  I also have this hardware input lag tester: http://www.leobodnar.com/products/LagTest/

The 60" has 40ms of input lag in Game picture mode.  Other modes are between 135-140ms, which is actually quite significant.

For comparison, this is a pretty good list of input lag in various TVs: http://www.displaylag.com/display-database/ (they use the same hardware tester).
Very interesting. So game mode is definitely best! Thanks!
post #6025 of 8760
I saw noticeable audio lag on Game last night, but Computer seems to be much better so far.
post #6026 of 8760
Is it just me or is the 65 inch more clear and vibriant and seems to be brighter and has more color or at least it looked like that when I was looking at it at costco tonight
post #6027 of 8760
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewG585 View Post

Is it just me or is the 65 inch more clear and vibriant and seems to be brighter and has more color or at least it looked like that when I was looking at it at costco tonight


Check post 5944. Appears second gen 65 has glossy and third gen 70 and 80 have matte screens.

post #6028 of 8760
@Micah123 yes I realize that the 65 has a glossy screen but I am saying it appears to look better and more vibriant as opposed to the 70 or other sizes despite having a glossy screen
post #6029 of 8760
Quote:
Originally Posted by johndoejohndoes View Post

Also - Noticed the whole left side of the screen isn't glued down (where it connects to the frame). Just where it connects to the side. The pictures looks normal (it doesn't go in anywhere else) and the only reason I saw/felt it is when I was cleaning it. I was going all around the perimeter and heard a sticking sound (like it was supposed to stick) but it goes in about 1 cm when I lightly press along the left side.

What should I do since the image doesn't look bad?

Is this normal? I noticed if you push on the top left/right it goes in a little. Like the glue didn't completely stick. It's just the edges. Let me know.

Same on my set, Im pretty sure its normal
post #6030 of 8760
Day two with my new M501.
Here is the setup.

I have a cable box component RGB going to the TV. I have an old school Pioneer Elite 45TX that predates HDMI. From the cable box I have optical going to the receiver for discreet 5.1. On some channels, I am getting severe lip sync issues while watching cable, others it is fine. When we have the issue, the sound lags the video.

I had the thought of hooking up HDMI from the cable box to the TV (left the optical from box to receiver for audio). Issue still persisted on some channels.

Then I went HDMI from cable box to TV with Audio/Video, and TV to receiver with Optical for audio. Issue still persisted on some channels.

I have not fiddled with different video modes/settings yet.

Suggestions for solutions to the sip sync issue?

Thanks!
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