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QSC for Home Theater continued... - Page 2

post #31 of 86
Its probably a good starting point but you nedd to account for distance also.
post #32 of 86
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrager View Post

Its probably a good starting point but you nedd to account for distance also.
So I was oversimplifying. I'm going with a DHC-80.3 so I would think the Audyssey XT32 should be able to take care of the leveling of everything out. The rears will be significantly closer than the fronts, so that should help the situation also.
post #33 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by xeonicxpression View Post


Where do I find the sensitivity of the KW122? I looked on the website and don't see a sensitivity number.

 

This chart says 98db but its an estimate.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0Ahbv22x1GcpqdDdpT0hrNmJVNU5kM0drU0R5bVRNWUE

post #34 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by xeonicxpression View Post

Is there much airflow that comes out of those front ports? I'm putting this behind an AT screen so I want to make sure I won't have any vibrations from them. Also, at what point do you cross to your sub?
Cranked Some dubstep and had minimal port air velocity. I keep my kw's crossed at 60 Hertz.
post #35 of 86
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antripodean View Post

I think it matters that you either match the sensitivity of the LCRs or have enough gain to get all the speakers on an even SPL. The in ceiling speakers have a sensitivity of 90dB and pro audio LCRs would be 100dB so without adjustment the surrounds are half the volume.

I have been suggested Triad Silver/4 Inwall's placed in ceiling several times. They are 4ohm and have a sensitivity of only 83db. Is that too great of a difference or is it something that can easily be taken care of?
post #36 of 86
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by superedge88 View Post

Cranked Some dubstep and had minimal port air velocity. I keep my kw's crossed at 60 Hertz.
Thanks superedge! That's great news. There shouldn't be any issue then.
post #37 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by xeonicxpression View Post

I have been suggested Triad Silver/4 Inwall's placed in ceiling several times. They are 4ohm and have a sensitivity of only 83db. Is that too great of a difference or is it something that can easily be taken care of?
Whether it can be taken care of depends on your AVR or DSP processing ability. The LCRs would most likely need to be lowered in gain while the surrounds are increased. Whether you should bother is a different question. I wouldn't.
post #38 of 86
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antripodean View Post

Whether it can be taken care of depends on your AVR or DSP processing ability. The LCRs would most likely need to be lowered in gain while the surrounds are increased. Whether you should bother is a different question. I wouldn't.
What do you mean by you wouldn't bother?
post #39 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by xeonicxpression View Post

What do you mean by you wouldn't bother?
83 dB sensitivity is really low, lower than most subwoofers. You are losing the dynamics that you are saying you want in your LCRs and they would also be compromised to match SPL (even allowing for distance).
post #40 of 86
That's a really good point. The receiver has to compensate for the difference's when it goes to level match, sometimes they only have -12 to -15 to lower which might not be enough when pairing high and low sensitivity speakers.
post #41 of 86
Thread Starter 
Thanks guys. Do you have any suggestions for speakers that can be put in ceiling that would be a reasonable match? I'm leaning towards the Definitive Technology RSS III. I don't want to spend much over $500 per speaker. I could hang some K8's from the ceiling like they do at concerts with the wires. My fiance would love that.biggrin.gif
post #42 of 86
I'd go with something like the Yorkville C190. You can soffit mount them, your AVR can drive them and at that price you can have a 7.1 surround system. There are a few brands of pro speakers with similar offers, like Quest. Or you could DIY some SEOS kits. Going for a full set of K8s would be great but since they are active you would need to ensure proper ventilation if soffit mounting.
post #43 of 86
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antripodean View Post

I'd go with something like the Yorkville C190. You can soffit mount them, your AVR can drive them and at that price you can have a 7.1 surround system. There are a few brands of pro speakers with similar offers, like Quest. Or you could DIY some SEOS kits. Going for a full set of K8s would be great but since they are active you would need to ensure proper ventilation if soffit mounting.

The problem is this is in a basement (so I only have 92" of ceiling height to work with) and in a less than optimal room. Well I have a second problem to deal with, a fiance, but we won't go there!rolleyes.gif The plan is on the previous page, but I'll do some 3d renders tomorrow and post them with the plan on this page. I think I'm pretty much stuck with in ceiling speakers. Preferably something dipole, since it will be 90% movie watching.
post #44 of 86
I'm using the term soffit as relates to a music studio - the wall into which loudspeakers are mounted in a recording studio. From wiki "In recording studios, historically, monitor speakers were either soffit mounted, i.e. attached to the wall, tight to the underside of the ceiling, or free standing. Mounted to the ceiling, the speaker radiates into quarter-space (π/2 steradians), and so achieves greater efficiency than its free-standing equivalent. The nomenclature has since been habitually used to denote any arrangement where the loudspeaker radiates into less than full space, most notably including flush mounting the speaker into a false wall constructed specifically for the purpose,to radiate into half-space". If you want greater coverage put two beside each other as the high frequencies will have controlled directivity both horizontally and vertically which is advantageous for your low ceiling.
post #45 of 86
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antripodean View Post

I'm using the term soffit as relates to a music studio - the wall into which loudspeakers are mounted in a recording studio. From wiki "In recording studios, historically, monitor speakers were either soffit mounted, i.e. attached to the wall, tight to the underside of the ceiling, or free standing. Mounted to the ceiling, the speaker radiates into quarter-space (π/2 steradians), and so achieves greater efficiency than its free-standing equivalent. The nomenclature has since been habitually used to denote any arrangement where the loudspeaker radiates into less than full space, most notably including flush mounting the speaker into a false wall constructed specifically for the purpose,to radiate into half-space". If you want greater coverage put two beside each other as the high frequencies will have controlled directivity both horizontally and vertically which is advantageous for your low ceiling.

Oh ok, I work for a home building company, so we use that term differently. How would you flush mount a speaker like that in a ceiling though? Also, here are the renders I said I would do. They are quick and dirty, but good enough I would think.
post #46 of 86

Looks like you don't have any room for a speaker on the left side... How good are you with wood? I was thinking you can build this speaker but recessed into the ceiling at an angle. http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/index.php?topic=127.0 or this one http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/index.php?topic=107.0

 

It would look something like this

post #47 of 86
You can ceiling mount. You need to think about the waveguide like a light beam - it's 90 x 30 so 'project' this from the ceiling onto your listening area and decide if you need one or a pair (arrayed) on each side.
post #48 of 86
These, I've heard, and they're extraordinary. They demoed these at CEDIA a couple of years ago in Indianapolis, in their dedicated sound room. Considering they were essentially a double 5", two-way, I was absolutely blown away with what was capable with such an approach.

I wasn't in the market for such an offering,I just really like what this company does. It's the Hales loudspeaker group, morphing into highly capable, high output HT products. Their entire line is outstanding.

In wall, in ceiling, isn't for everyone.

Good luck
post #49 of 86
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Like all Pro Audio Technology loudspeakers, the SCRS-25ica requires PRO amplification as DSP is required in all operating modes.
So beyond the obvious I need a pro amp, what does DSP is required in all operating modes mean? I was hoping to use the Emotiva XPA-5 I already have to power the rears.

Edit: Nevermind I called the company who gave me their closest dealer and the speakers are $1800 each and you need their amp which is $4000/pair.eek.gif
Edited by xeonicxpression - 1/25/13 at 9:33am
post #50 of 86
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elill View Post

I have a pair of QSC AD S-82H that I used as rears in a large living room (about 10m by 8m).

Before I stuck them in their final homes, I had a real good listen to them in stereo. If I was on a budget and doing a room today I'd buy 7 of them and be real happy. Superb speaker and cheap as chips. Check out the response:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Elill View Post

I have mine in wall cavities stuffed with insulation and aligned to make a semi-baffle. It works well.....and they are just so darn cheap its not funny....better if you're using an AT screen so you can hide them. I'd think the smaller 5" model would make a good rear in a "normal" sized room. As you said, buy them in white and paint.

I was looking at the last page of posts and saw these two posts. At first I was thinking these wouldn't work. But now that I'm planning the AT screen and my seating is moving back they would work fine on the right side and on the left I'm thinking I could put them under the cabinets so the front is flush with the wall using the Yoke Mount to aim it at the seats. Then I was thinking I could hang 2 from the ceiling behind the seating because they wouldn't hang down too far. What do yo guys think? I would think the 82H would be better than the 52 since the 52 is only 86db sensitivity and the 82 is 90. Also, would my Emotiva XPA-5 be ok to power these or do I need a pro-audio amp?
post #51 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by xeonicxpression View Post


I was looking at the last page of posts and saw these two posts. At first I was thinking these wouldn't work. But now that I'm planning the AT screen and my seating is moving back they would work fine on the right side and on the left I'm thinking I could put them under the cabinets so the front is flush with the wall using the Yoke Mount to aim it at the seats. Then I was thinking I could hang 2 from the ceiling behind the seating because they wouldn't hang down too far. What do yo guys think? I would think the 82H would be better than the 52 since the 52 is only 86db sensitivity and the 82 is 90. Also, would my Emotiva XPA-5 be ok to power these or do I need a pro-audio amp?

You definitely want the AD-S82's over the AD-S52's. I own 2 pairs of 52's and had a pair of 82's (recently sold them to a buddy so he could have some decent tunes in his shop). The 82's just do everything bigger than the 52's. Both of them are nice sounding speakers.

The question is whether or not you need the S82H's or not. The H is the compression driver model; the standard 82 is a dome tweeter mounted in a small waveguide. I haven't heard the H's but would have figured they would be rated with a noticeably higher sensitivity than the standard S82's due to the CD, but a quick check of QSC's site shows they are rated the exact same at 90.5 dB (they must be padding down the CD a ton to match the woofer). The H will get 3 dB louder due to it's ability to absorb over 2x the power -- 120 db compared to 117 dB. The H models go for about $240/pr more.

The Emo would power either just fine.
post #52 of 86
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Smith View Post

You definitely want the AD-S82's over the AD-S52's. I own 2 pairs of 52's and had a pair of 82's (recently sold them to a buddy so he could have some decent tunes in his shop). The 82's just do everything bigger than the 52's. Both of them are nice sounding speakers.

The question is whether or not you need the S82H's or not. The H is the compression driver model; the standard 82 is a dome tweeter mounted in a small waveguide. I haven't heard the H's but would have figured they would be rated with a noticeably higher sensitivity than the standard S82's due to the CD, but a quick check of QSC's site shows they are rated the exact same at 90.5 dB (they must be padding down the CD a ton to match the woofer). The H will get 3 dB louder due to it's ability to absorb over 2x the power -- 120 db compared to 117 dB. The H models go for about $240/pr more.

The Emo would power either just fine.

That was going to be my next question. Do I need the H or is the regular version just fine. Is it better to have the CD since I have CD's in the front or will the dome tweeter be just fine? I'm not worried about the extra 3db. These are just surround after all.
post #53 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by xeonicxpression View Post

That was going to be my next question. Do I need the H or is the regular version just fine. Is it better to have the CD since I have CD's in the front or will the dome tweeter be just fine? I'm not worried about the extra 3db. These are just surround after all.

Some would say you absolutely need to get the H's so all of your speakers have as close to the same sonic signature as possible, and then some would say that S52's would be totally fine instead of S82's as they're 'just surrounds'. smile.gif

If you like to listen to a lot of multi-channel music it might be more important to have a CD-based surround to match your LCR. I'm kind of divided on the issue -- I've been pretty impressed at what a fairly mundane speaker can accomplish for surround duty many times -- but on principle feel that the design should be complimentary of the LCR and not leagues below.
post #54 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by xeonicxpression View Post

So beyond the obvious I need a pro amp, what does DSP is required in all operating modes mean? I was hoping to use the Emotiva XPA-5 I already have to power the rears.

Edit: Nevermind I called the company who gave me their closest dealer and the speakers are $1800 each and you need their amp which is $4000/pair.eek.gif

Yeah, they have some cool speakers, but they are a little outrageous on the price IMO. They are basically for high-end installs only...aka $500k builds and up.

The funny thing is that all of their speakers use off the shelf parts. Mostly B&C, BMS, 18Sound and JBL. Much of the same stuff you will see the guys on here use. I'm actually using the same horn they use in their 2nd from top of the line speaker. It is an older JBL horn. Their DSP and amps aren't even very special. Pretty much run of the mill 48db slopes and nice class D amps. The DSP offers an interface for slight tweaking which is good for installers.
post #55 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by xeonicxpression View Post

That was going to be my next question. Do I need the H or is the regular version just fine. Is it better to have the CD since I have CD's in the front or will the dome tweeter be just fine? I'm not worried about the extra 3db. These are just surround after all.

I'd be going the H version for everything....they're still cheap (IMO) and you know you can drive them hard. Also, the HF roll-off over multiple rows is better with the CD as opposed to the dome.
post #56 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

Yeah, they have some cool speakers, but they are a little outrageous on the price IMO. They are basically for high-end installs only...aka $500k builds and up.

The funny thing is that all of their speakers use off the shelf parts. Mostly B&C, BMS, 18Sound and JBL. Much of the same stuff you will see the guys on here use. I'm actually using the same horn they use in their 2nd from top of the line speaker. It is an older JBL horn. Their DSP and amps aren't even very special. Pretty much run of the mill 48db slopes and nice class D amps. The DSP offers an interface for slight tweaking which is good for installers.

+1

I agree,.. it a brute force pro audio approach, in the world of high end HT design/installs, and the margins therein. Also, private screening rooms for the stars, etc, according to the individuals at the company. Most drivers do appear off the shelf, but they do use a carbon fiber 7", in a somewhat of a compression driver, in it's loading, in their biggest screen channel offering.

In their words; "41-pound ultra high-output (114dB / 1 watt) compression driver. Its 7-inch carbon fiber diaphragm provides pistonic motion over three and one half octaves, resulting in the most effortless, coherent, and dynamically correct rendering of vocals and instrumentation possible. Dispersion and acoustic power transfer are controlled via a 28.5”-square constant directivity horn with over 800 square inches of effective radiating surface – more than 40 times the radiating area of a typical cone midrange."


7" compression drver eek.gif sweet.
If you've ever seen it in person, up close, you know what I mean by compression loading.


No need for further discussion of these, I just wanted to point out what was out there in high capability in-wall/in-ceiling offerings.
post #57 of 86
Thread Starter 
So with these controlled directivity speakers, how much spacing should you have between the L&R? I'll be 14' back. Right now the plan is about 10' seperation, but then toe in to cross infront of the seats. Any advice on how far infront of the seats you should cross them?
post #58 of 86
Thread Starter 
So here's another question. Just met with my friend and he said the K12's will be an awful lot of sound from 14' away. He thought the K8 would be more than enough. What do you guys think?
post #59 of 86
I think...'say what?' Choose the speaker with greater headroom, frequency range and efficiency, all other things being equal. You get the same tweeter, why skimp on the woofer unless you need to save the space or the money.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xeonicxpression View Post

So here's another question. Just met with my friend and he said the K12's will be an awful lot of sound from 14' away. He thought the K8 would be more than enough. What do you guys think?

Edited by imagic - 1/28/13 at 4:44pm
post #60 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by xeonicxpression View Post

So here's another question. Just met with my friend and he said the K12's will be an awful lot of sound from 14' away. He thought the K8 would be more than enough. What do you guys think?

It's only an "awful lot of sound" if you turn up the volume to awful levels. The K8 or K10 may be enough, it just depends on how loud you like it and if it plays low enough for you. The K12 should not only play louder but give you more mid-bass slam.

If there are any Pro rental company's in your area you should really consider renting both the K12 and K8's for a weekend to compare for yourself.
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