Where is my (our) Kuro replacement? - Page 5

Back in 2008 I missed multiple opportunities to purchase the 151 and regretted not picking one up for years to follow. Finally I was able to find a used set in really good condition at a very reasonable price. I’ve had the Kuro for about 5 months now and just love the picture quality.

If technology took another 5 years to catch up and be affordable I’m content because this panel is something extraordinary in build quality and the picture is second to none.

Please stop blaming fake things like California and power consumption. I bought a "gas guzzling" 2012 VT Panasonic which neither meets current U.S. Energy Star nor is it illegal to sell in California. In fact, it's for sale at Fry's right now. I'm a "green" and make most of my own power and don't love that my TV is 3 times less efficient than an LCD, but I made a choice. And no one took the choice away from me. Not Panasonic, not Washington, not California. It is my understanding that my Panasonic -- while bigger than any Kuro -- is about as power hungry as the last of the Kuros. (I base that on reviews and reports from people at AVS who seem to know how to measure power consumption.)

I've seen those reactions, too, but I wonder how they reached those conclusions. The Samsung looked good, but the demo set up wasn't really impressive. It might be the best plasma (TV?) of 2013, but until we get a real test, we're speculating based on a show-floor setup and a lot of hype.

Yep.

That's not what I am saying. COST is the number one reason I mentioned, not energy compliance alone. That's my opinion, of course, but I believe a Panasonic with Kuro's black would be possible technically speaking but it would have to be cheap enough to compete with the Koreans AND would have to be energy efficient. The only reason why I mentioned the energy stuff is because the Panasonic marketing guys are using the reduction on energy consumption on the 2013 models as a big plus. They have not mentioned the reduction, if any, on the VT and ZT models, that's true, but you can bet they are concerned about it. It's a TREND in the industry, like you or not.

It's not a "fake thing" and I don't appreciate when people quote me and start with "stop", this is rude and unnecessary.

It does seem like they advertise eco friendly -

"Environmentally Friendly
Panasonic’s commitment to sustainability and producing ecologically sound products is evidenced in the 100,000 hour life span of the Plasma Display panel and the lack of lead or mercury in the panels. Panasonic's plasma panels last up to 100,000 hours before the brightness decreases by half - that's more than 30 years of viewing 8 hours a day. With Eco Mode, Panasonic TV's turn off and adjust brightness depending on operating status. The Power Save setting also adjusts screen brightness to reduce power consumption."

There were some light controlled demos behind the scenes getting rave reviews. Robert Zohn and David McKenzie thought it was a larger improvement than what panasonic had accomplished.

When is the launch/timing of the F8500?

I've been told April 2013.

Snur

That's good because the consensus is they slacked a bit last year.

Lol, but I think the point was more that the EPA should do a better job with the things that actually matter (regulations that would prevent major disasters like the one mentioned), rather than insignificant policies that do more to hurt our economy and slow growth than anything else (whining about power consumption of flat panel TVs being the focus here). Just my .02...

True, but it's interesting...if you look at the 2012 shootout and ratings from the calibrators, the VT50 and E8000 were equal as far as general content video quality at 9.25 even though the VT50 had the edge in blacks, contrast, and color. Perhaps the "natural" look of the E8000 some have talked about helped it's general rating.

http://www.*********************/images/pdf/VE%202012%20shoot-out%20Calibrators'%20Votes.pdf

No, here's the actual facts about energy reduction. Panasonic has been touting this for years. They are one of the greenest companies on earth. Unfortunately, their TVs are plasmas -- not as green as LCD at all.

When the most recent Energy Star went into effect last year, they gave up trying to get the sticker on the TVs that don't have it.

They didn't "try to reduce power". They stopped trying.

The standard is 108 watts irrespective of screen size. You can't do it even in "eco" mode on the bigger TVs so they stopped trying.

So, no, power consumption has nothing to do with it. It doesn't have "something" or "a little" to do with it.

The VT series from last year is, again, in the ballpark of the last Kuros. Further evidence that it isn't power, California, the EPA, or us evil "greens".

Does cost matter? Of course it does. Pioneer's pricing was thousands higher than what Panasonic can charge today. But power is not one of the issues.

So stop bringing it up and pretending it is.

That's what I'm asking.

You're not all evil, just pie in the sky. *chortle* You could say I'm partially green in that I love to save money on energy (to a point), but I'll just stop with these off-topic tangent shenanigans here and now.
Edited by vinnie97 - 1/30/13 at 12:05pm

Ok good. Then thats final on the power issue for now.


So it comes down to cost. Makes sense. They obviously need to meet the challenge of producing a plasma without charging 6 grand(or whatever Pioneer was charging at the time before the started getting rid of them at discount)

Makes sense. I could understand everyone crying if Panasonic was charging an arm and a leg for their TVs but they are trying to meet both the cost and PQ need at the same time. Not an easy challenge as evident on how many manufactures still produce Plasmas.

Answer me this: Runco and Bang and Olufsen make trillion dollar TVs and aren't bankrupt.

Why would it be IMPOSSIBLE and bankrupting for Panasonic to make one model that would be superior to every Kuro ever made and charge an astonomical price for it because they would know that the videophile fringe would pay it?

I don't get why it is IMPOSSIBLE?1

If it costs a billion to produce--sell it for a Billion + whatever profit you want to make and produce only with PRE-ORDERS that are PRE-PAID!

I guarantee you if they could PROVE they would could produce the SUPERIOR display on planet Earth and sold them through AVS--that they would be able to SELL THEM!

Tell me why people wouldn't buy them!

Last time I checked Sharp making the Elite wasn't impossible.

Why is Panasonic using the Pioneer patents IMPOSSIBLE?

I bet you if the choice was build it or the universe would blow up on the next Fringe episode that they could build it!

It must be the New World Order People with the black helicopters in an underground bunker in Area 51--Rogo knows this is true and even he is afraid to talk about it!

Its sounds like a case of bad timing to me….

Pioneer exited the television market partly due to such a small percentage of people willing pay the price for the best there is, but also bad timing due to the downturn of the economy in 2008.

The past being the past other companies don’t want to repeat history and subject themselves to the fait of the Kuro. Economically it just doesn’t make sense. The group of people willing to seek/pay for quality better then what pioneer has produced is such a minority it hasn’t become reality, hence the 5 year slump.
Edited by Dust Bubble - 1/30/13 at 3:25pm

Runco and Bang have brand equity as expensive. Panny has always been about value. Sharp did so well selling 6k Elites they stopped after 1 year. The American economy shrunk in Q4 and the economy has stagnated for years. No business man is going to plan to sell 6k the into that!

But they don't own multi-billion-dollar panel manufacturing plants either. They source their panels and components from established manufacturers and they have relatively little overhead, while enjoying incredibly high gross profit margins on their boutique products.

So why not do it this way: Panasonic does the actual manufacturing of the Kuro killing display FOR either Runco or Bang and Olufsen.

Bang and Olufsen don't mind that Panasonic charges them beaucoup because they're going to charge out the wazoo anyway!

So problem is solved! Panasonic makes money--Runco and Bang and Olufsen make money--and the fringe elite videophiles get to finally experience that Kuro Killing plasma par excellance prototype that the President of Panasonic owns and watches in that Japanese cave that is guarded by Godzilla!

Now all ye apologists for the Plasma panel manufacturing complex--tell us why THAT couldn't happen!

It may take convincing Godzilla that the president of Panasonic isn't Japanese for the ultimate plasma to come to fruition!

What it really might take is for all 2013 plasmas to be sold--2014 to get here and then we finally DO get that ultimate plasma!

If it happens just remember that you heard it here first--I can't wait to hear all the financila genius prognosticators and analysts opine how they always knew it made great financial sense--RIGHT!

exactly...every year after Panasonic announces their new offerings at CES like clockwork you will see people claim that this will be the set that beats the Kuro...VT30...VT50...now the new ZT...don't people understand that Panasonic does not want to beat the Kuro...they want to incrementally lower their black levels year after year but never match the Kuro 9G...if they do no one will want to buy their next generation sets...it's a matter of dangling a carrot on a stick

I don't know if this is too off topic, but does anyone know what engineering problem hasn't been overcome in plasma tech that prevents pixels from being turned off completly to produce perfect blacks?

My Panasonic G25 has a pattern in the service menu that will display a white rectangle in the center and completely turn off the surrounding black pixels when set to vivid mode. It would be amazing to see the display behave this way in a movie scene like starry night sky.

I don't think the pixels are off. The white rectangle is making it seem like the blacks are really deep, it's the way our eyes work.

Unless there's something I don't know about that TV.

So... Panasonic posted a US$6.77billion loss in the March-December period... What do you think this means for their R&D budget?

What it means is there is no money for R & D so it's time to USE the patents that they bought from Pioneer for all that money!

Ask the MONEY bean counters at Panasonic how much sense it makes to spend zillions on patents and then never use them!

They can USE the patents now and make money FROM them!

Come on all you financial experts--tell me how NOT using them makes financial sense!

How does not USING them and eating them as a loss TASTE?

^How about the prospect of using them AND taking a further loss sound? Not impossible.

Tell me this--say they use them and the cost of their plasma sets are the same as a Sharp Elite LCD.

Are you telling me that they couldn't sell any of them?

Who believes that?

Are you telling me that they would lose money at that price? Who believes that?

Sorry folks but I just don't believe the gospel around here at AVS that says that since Pioneer went out of business no one in the history of the universe could produce something slightly better than them and NOT make money on it!

Are they the only company in the history of the world that 100% OPTIMIZED quality and cost level?

At some PRICE you will make money on the displays--the cost of manufacturing them is NOT infinite!

For them to LOSE money you would have to say that at an INFLATED cost that they couldn't sell them!

Who believes that?!

People spend zillions on audio equipment--are you telling me there are not enough rich videophile nuts in the world that would pony up the price?

I don't believe that either!

I tell you what i DO believe.

I believe that that the video display industry has enough plant posters at AVS to always STEER opinion here AGAINST possible techonologies and products that they COULD produce to products that they ARE producing now.

What is said to be IMPOSSIBLE at AVS many times is not really IMPOSSIBLE--it's just not what the Industry is currently producing.

There is more than one way to make money.

What the AV Industry wants to do is sell COW MANURE if they could get enough posters to influence others in the buying public to BUY it if they could get them to believe it was great!

And the video display industry always cries like they're farmers who can't COMPETE and since they can't COPETE then we--as opposed to farmers who get government subsidies should get the TV buying public subsidy which is the equivalent of COW MANURE to make them money so they won't run out of business!

It's not the best of the TVs here that we are talking about. It's the majority of them--the zillions that are sold at Wal-mart to Joe Sixpack!

The cow manure of TVs is 60Hz LCD!

The video display industry has made a science out of producing such MANURE--they can make plenty of money on that manure! They can make so much money on that MANURE that they don't even dream of being able to produce anything that is not MANURE!

And their planted posters here support them!

The conversation is kept mainly on pie in the sky technologies that will NEVER happen and propoganda campaigns against technoligies that COULD happen but aren't the current variety of manure that they want to sell.

You know how you can tell that TVs are getting worse?

Go to the LCD Forum and look at the total lack of any buzz or excitement of any LCD products shown at AVS. There is none!

All that forum has become is the 60Hz LCD commodity forum of what I just got a good deal on!

Nobody really cares about the quality--it's just the DEAL!

The real deal around here for 2013 for quality is this: we hope you people are DUMB enough to buy the incremental improvements in the Panasonic ZT60 and the Samsung who knows the model number because we're MAKING you settle for that because the only thing else we're going to produce is what we already produce as our money maker--the COW manure of substandard LCD!

Don't worry--it will sell because half the country is blind and half don't have a life and have no friends so sitting directly in front of it is no problem!

We can even get you suckers out there to buy edge-lit! What a joke! We're laughing all the way to the bank!

Bottom line for this whole thread: There is no REAL Kuro replacement! All you can do is HOPE for one in 2014.

P.S. Prepare for the brainwashing sales force here to tell you there is a replacement! They've pushed and SOLD INFERIOR technology here for so long that they wouldn't know better than Kuro qaulity if they saw it!

C'mon, Art. Let's wait to see if we at least have a 9G replacement after the reviews and calibrator measurements start coming in before we engage anymore tirades. There are many things to get worked up about today. While this one is frustrating, it doesn't sit at the top of my list.

IMO Panasonic may not be able or willing to duplicate/exceed Kuro technology because:

A) It is too cost prohibitive.

B) Kuro cannot be replicated given Panasonic's existing manufacturing process.

C) The marginal return on investment to produce a Kuro PDP is not great enough.

D) Panasonic never intended to use Pioneer's patents but wanted to prevent their competitors' access to this technology.

(signed: a PRO150FD owner, the red headed stepchild of the PRO151FD)

They do turn off completely on that one pattern, I had to do a double take when I first saw it. One pattern has a large white rectangle and the black pixels are visibly on, when switching to the next pattern with a small rectangle the black pixels will be on for a moment and then shut off completely.
I have never seen this display do that other than with this pattern in the service menu.

My GT50 on Dynamic Mode (Vivid) does that thing...all pixels shut off on a black screen (Like LCD/LED) and they shut off on patterns just like Goo said.
Obviusly only on vivid mode, the same thing happened when i had a Samsung D550. (But in Samsung was in all modes). It's just a trick...i don't like it.

If you enter your GT50's service menu and go through each section using the number 1 or 2 on the remote, you will get to a full screen pattern, press 3 or 4 to scroll through the different patterns. A pattern with a small rectangle in the center of the screen will appear; on my G25 the black pixels of this pattern will turn off, the same way you describe vivid mode on a full black screen; in this pattern the black pixels will shut off but the white rectangle is still displayed.

I also don't like the behavior you are describing on all black screens, but if the panel could disable the blackest pixels completely while displaying content the display would have a far greater contrast.
I was just wondering why this can't or hasn't been done on plasma displays.