Where is my (our) Kuro replacement? - Page 7

I think people are absolutely convinced here that absent a "black level" that doesn't match/exceed some 5-year-old TV, the newer TV is inferior. That's definitely the case. What's less clear to me for a long time is how that one element of performance -- which really only applies in a dark room -- has become the only thing on which a display is judged. It'd be like judging a car solely on skidpad performance.

I believe my 2006 50" Panasonic was top end, $2200, a total steal at the time (Costco special when they still got top-of-the-line models). So no, not really is your answer.

See and this kind of "whatever-speak" is exactly what I'm talking about. "I have concluded this product is bad because I do not like the choices made by the product manufacturer. So even though your McLaren outperforms my Ferrari on the skidpad, I have deemed it unworthy because it uses too much carbon fiber."
This could easily be flipped around so I've deleted all the loaded language from the quote posted. Don't enter non-Kuro threads to talk about your obsolete display. Now, obviously this thread is a Kuro thread so the admonition doesn't apply here.

Obsolete yet still outperforms modern displays (yes yes, I know, not in all facets of PQ). Also, certain PQ components have a more significant weight when it comes to perception (which is obviously lessened by certain viewing environments) of overall PQ, with black level being near the top of the list thanks to its direct responsibility in contributing to the contrast ratio, which itself is more important than resolution and color reproduction.

I am not writing off the Sharp myself (partly because I haven't had the chance to see one in person), but the known viewing angle limitations and the blooming artifacts (while minimal) that are a byproduct of creating the enhanced black levels (plus the price!) make the set a nonstarter for me.

Not to mention the Sharp's color issues.

The sharp is an excellent set, i just don't like the characteristics of LCD's. Keyword, ME. That doesn't mean it's a bad display, I never said that. But from what I've seen I would never buy it.

And the kuro does many things well besides black level. Why do people keep on only mentioning that I have no idea. That isn't the only thing people mean when they say nobody had passed it.
Edited by saprano - 2/7/13 at 1:55pm

If I was laying down odds I would say there's a definitely a sizable chance the Kuro won't ever be beaten by another Plasma (talking overall PQ wise, not just black levels). But this depends on as you stated how long Plasmas will be a major player in the market. As you stated there's no incentive for a tech that facing certain death with OLED in the future

Since I own a perfectly good PRO-150FD, other than the bigger footprint, what is there to compel me to spend ~$2500 for a TC-P65VT50?

Aren't we better off just waiting for that elusive LG 65EM9700 OLED TV?

Being a realist, and not being concerned about screen size as my seating at the end of my bed where i watch my baby is only 4 and a half to six feet from my 500 depending on if i lean forward or back.

I really don't see how it can go any darker without dropping to 0MLL (side by side in a black room)

That won't happen with pdp's now imho. Because OLED is upon us and it makes no business sense whatsoever to produce a 0MLL plasma imho. Because what would the appeal of OLED be, if one could by a plasma at the quarter of the price that does the same thing.

Processing... The Kuro's processing is unmatched, especially standard definition which a lot of people still watch, myself included. Part and parcel of UK broadcasts - and will be for a long long time. Bluray quality broadcast HD broadcast was never going to happen here in the UK - but yet folk are kidding themselves all of a sudden in a couple of years or so 4K is going to be here lol. Sure it will be - in a compressed state of affairs.

Not saying the last vt wasn't good. The time i spent with one, it wasn't even close. That includes blackout black levels.

I found a stupidly low usage 500M recently - and no brainer is an understatement having come from a 500A, and knowing how good that is. Not cheap, but worth (every penny).

An (0MLL) OLED 4K will be what i jump ship for. But definitely only, when the processing is proven on whatever display it happens to be. And i hope upon hope there is plenty true 4K to watch in Europe. (Physical media also.)

And anyway there is plenty 1080P goodness to look forward to on the Kuro. As bluray seems to be getting better and better quality as time goes by which is no bad thing. Watched District9 on the 500A the other night for instance - just before it's sold on before the new 500. The image even from less than two feet, looked so sharp (and) clean looking it could have been an LCD, and still looked incredibly clean from under a foot (no one watches from these distances but even still). Plenty to look forward to also when the next gen consoles pump out 1080P (true full HD hopefully)gaming eventually.

I am sure the next big two consumer pdp's are going to be good. But no Kuro's (that includes 8G's btw for all round processing). And that's not wishful thinking, it's just common sense. I just have a feeling because of the price points, no company gives away, like Pio did.

Huge processing costs big money.

Plenty to look forward to, if you are happy with what you have imho. Unless someone needs "new" or huge, or both.
Edited by Stu03 - 2/8/13 at 11:38am

It could be a long while yet before many kuro owners decide to upgrade

There are all kinds of Kuros for sale in a number of places. It's just that they think they can get more than they paid for them...and the owners of pristine ones can.

Obviously nothing. Even if Pioneer was still in business would you actually buy another TV so soon?

Pioneer *is* still in business, but I know what you meant. Had they been able to keep the display division afloat, I think there's a good chance that ultimate black panel shown as a prototype at CES in 2008 would've surfaced by now, which, depending on the cost, would've been a big incentive for many 9th Gen owners to grab.

\

I might have bought one of those.

A big incentive but pricy one. If the msrp was $7500 5 years ago im sure inflation would see a ultimate black panel at around $8000 msrp(or more). If you got the cash to burn then more power to you, but theres got to be few that can justify purchases like that every 5 years(speaks to why Pioneer had to abandoned the Kuro TV business in the first place....$$$ )

I sold my 5020 Kuro to Dnice when he came to calibrate my new 65vt30 just over a year ago. I still miss the 5020 as it just had a better pic overall, but i have been very happy with my VT30 . Most times i change displays every two years. Not sure what i will go for next, maybe wait out OLED in about another 3 years or go for a Panny ZT60.

The average consumer doesn't notice or care about the differences regarding the performance of Plasma versus LCD displays. Inexpensive LCD’s have portended the demise of PDP technology for years. Given the current price points for 50" - 65" plasma display panels, there is little doubt that PDP makers will do their best to maximize their current investment in this technology with room only for marginal improvements.

I'd like something bigger than my 60" display and if a 65" or larger OLED panel was available/affordable I might be tempted.

(but don't tell my WAF)

This may be an impossible to answer question but why not?

2008 CES Ultimate black Pioneer prototype versus greatest current OLED?

There's one thing that is always spouted as fact here that I refuse to believe--and that is the proposition that no matter HOW low most consumers may spend on TVs that it is IMPOSSIBLE to produce a high end TV costing MUCH more and still be able to make money off of it.

That happens as far as I know with practically every other product known on planet Earth--why are TVs the ONLY exception?

Elite kuro, well some of us have them...the others... Well they just have a tv.... and are jealous that a 5 year old set still one of the best PQ in the business

Jealous? What arrogance. I owned 2. There are quite a few for sale. Anyone can buy one. Some don't want a tv (that's all a Kuro is) that looks so 2008 in their living rooms. Lets get real about Kuro shortcomings like the fact it gives off massive heat, red tint, etc.

Optivity? Is that you?

That's the second time I've seen the "2008" remark. Is that because it's not paper thin and has a design that isn't ornate enough? You're the only one I've seen with that complaint here on the forum anyway...any perceived design statement (or lack thereof) is forgotten once this baby is viewed in its prime viewing environment.

Is the "red tint" issue confined to the 9G Kuro's or are the 8G displays also plagued by this phenomenon?

Currently, I have not seen any issues with my PRO-150FD (knock on wood w/fingers crossed)

Well give an example^^?


From a very high level from my understanding Pioneer was charging say 7 grand for the TVs. The recession hit, people stop buying Kuro’s and Pioneer was forced to cut prices and exit the TV business because it was not profitable. If people are not buying them then that’s that….I don’t get what you mean by it happens with every other product known to earth except TVs. Are you trying to make an analogy that Ford charges $20,000 for a car and Ferrari can charge $200,000 and still be in business then why can't Pioneer do this?

Quoted from some other threads as it applies here. Could this be the Kuro replacement we've been waiting for:
Time shall tell.

Runco charges zillions and stays in business. Bang and Olufsen charges zillions and stays in business.

There are countless products produced on planet Earth that are high end--the company that produces them charges much more than the median price--yet stays in business.

Why is it IMPOSSIBLE to do that when it comes to plasma televisions?

It is a FACT that people spend zillions on projection theater set-ups.

Why is it IMPOSSIBLE that no one in the entire world that already pays ZILLIONS for things such as Cars, paintings, houses, jewelry, stamps, coins, comic books--who knows what---why is it that NONE of them would spend a lot of money for a better than Kuro TV?

Just because Pioneer wasn't able to continue doing it--why does it mean that NO ONE else could do it?

Panasonic owns the Pioneer patents. Why is it that years later they can't do it?

I don't think it is a matter of can't do it--I think it is a matter of won't do it.

If Panasonic TODAY could produce the Pioneer infinite black prototype--why would they want to pursue OLED?

It must be that they don't want to make money on a better than Kuro plasma--they want to make a BOATLOAD of money on OLED!

Maybe they're holding the Pioneer patents in reserve so if OLED doesn't pan out and they have to have something to compete with 4K LCD--maybe that's when they'll use the Pioneer patents?

thanks vinnie97 i don't post the pics here because some people are very susceptible to opinions (And maybe could be troubles), and i don't have a Kuro to discuss.
Greetings I really hope that ZT60 will be the "Succesor"

Panasonic TX-P60ZT60 (ZT60) Holds Its Own Against Kuro Challenge


By David Mackenzie • Monday, 11 February 2013, 5:27 pm GMT

Panasonic has officially launched its “Beyond The Reference” ZT60 plasma for the UK and European markets this afternoon. In a bold move that is designed to lay a lingering ghost to rest, the Japanese manufacturer actually demoed the much-anticipated plasma TV side-by-side against a now-discontinued Pioneer Kuro KRP-600A which is widely considered by many video enthusiasts to be the best flat-screen television of all time (until now).

Panasonic TX-P60ZT60 (ZT60) holds its own against Kuro challenge


Obviously, we won’t know for sure how the new Panasonic plasma compares to the venerable and sorely missed Kuro, but the fact that the company is directly pitting the two head-to-head certainly demonstrates confidence in the product, to say the least.

In European markets, the Viera ZT60 series will only be available in one 60-inch screen size, that is the Panasonic TX-P60ZT60 (or TX-P60ZT60B in the United Kingdom). Unusually for Panasonic, the brand is directly addressing the enthusiast market with the ZT60. We learned today that the display will ship with a premium booklet which carries individualised serial number as well as signature of the project’s lead engineer. There will be also gold-plated “plaques” on the back, and prominent exclusive branding when the television is turned on.

What’s more, we noticed that the Pioneer Kuro model on exhibit was beginning to be affected by a red tint in the blacks (uneven across the screen surface), which some users have reported. Obviously, we can’t say for sure how the TX-P60ZT60 will hold up over the long term, but it’s reassuring to know that enthusiasts may finally have a viable replacement for their aging TVs.

The ZT60 was also joined by the Panasonic VT50 series, an HDTV we rated highly in terms of black-level performance (at least in some of its picture modes). Obviously we’ll need to wait for review units before we can put it to science, but the black level of the 60ZT60 looks considerably better than last year’s best Panasonic plasma series, and subjectively assessed, is on par with the last-gen Kuro KRP-600A.

The Panasonic ZT60 uses a refined manufacturing process dubbed “Air Gapless Technology” (AGL) which does away with the air gap inbetween the front glass and the plasma panel – the two are now bonded together. Although we had no complaints about internal reflections on the VT50, it’s another reminder that Panasonic is pulling out all the stops to deliver a premium product.

There’s also a new red phosphor which extends the colour gamut, although all Panasonic plasmas have managed to fully reproduce the Rec.709 HDTV gamut for the last few years, so this impressive engineering feat is not necessarily of much use to those of us interested in accuracy. 30,720 steps of gradation are also promised for silky smooth images free of tone jumps.

Pricing has yet to be set in stone, but is said to be around the £4000 mark. The Panasonic TX-P60ZT60B is set to hit UK shops in May.

Indeed. It's funny to see the three associated threads getting bumped with the same content (here again by Glashub), but these are exciting times in display tech.

yeah i want to watch VE Shootout 2013 like everyone right now JAJAJA

Vinnie, I simply wanted to spread the news to three separate but relevant threads. I'm trying to be of service but if you see darker motives then I feel badly for you.
Edited by Glashub - 2/11/13 at 10:48am

Which is approximately $6280 US currency.

I suppose I will stick with my 60", no red tint, 8G Kuro until it dies, or a 65"(+) OLED is available.