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Where is my (our) Kuro replacement? - Page 9

post #241 of 501
No problem Glashub but i think that ZT60 will be an option to replacement
post #242 of 501
Don't get me wrong I think the ZT60 will be great but I just never seen a kuro look like that. I don't care what the settings say, it's still a manufacturer demo made to impress. I have a kuro right in front of me and never have experienced any washed out look like that. A dull wash out like that happens when you have weak black levels. And didn't they say the 600A was affected with the red tint?
post #243 of 501
yes they said that but they only put the pics for information purpose...obviously a pic can't equal what we watch in real life...but most important is the information on the article.
post #244 of 501
You know, I can't help but detect just a smidgen, a tad, a hint, a slight whiff of humblebrag in these "Kuro when?" posts. A particular and distinct form of humblebrag among some Kuro owners[*] whereby a lamentation ("when oh when will someone make a set that surpasses my n-year-old Kuro before it dies") is used consciously or unconsciously to disguise a bit of bragging and schadenfreude ("ha ha, enjoy your crummy Al Gore-approved Panny and your elevated mll while I bask in the inky black non-glow of my Kuro that I had the deep pocket and foresight to shell out for years ago, biatches").

Call it the Kuro whinebrag ;-)

g,d&r

[*] not pointing fingers at anyone in particular, and I'm just having a little fun here so please, no outrage.
post #245 of 501
Don't get me wrong i'm only an enthusiast that never saw a KURO in my entire life...(In my country only some people have a LX508G singapur model or its other name LX5090, never came a KRP or ELITE and neither i watched a 9G) i bought a GT50 but i want to buy another tv that beats the last KURO (Not the prototype, cause i think maybe never we will see something like that)

In other post i left a link of David Mackenzie interview with a Head of Viera UK TV..and it seems that panasonic will still in plasma R & D
Edited by agkss - 2/12/13 at 5:28pm
post #246 of 501
He wasn't referencing you, Ag. wink.gif I don't think this will be the year that a Kuro-beating TV arrives. One that measures up to the 9th gen panels in factory black levels? That's promising. smile.gif
post #247 of 501
I know but maybe i generate some unnecessesary discussion and that's not my real intention...
post #248 of 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

He wasn't referencing you, Ag. wink.gif I don't think this will be the year that a Kuro-beating TV arrives. One that measures up to the 9th gen panels in factory black levels? That's promising. smile.gif

I'm just trying to understand the testing that was done is all. Of course people will assume I'm being a kuro fanboy. Nevermind I'm not even doubting the ZT60's performance, D-Nice already said it might equal the kuro, i'm doubting the kuros.
post #249 of 501
agkss as I person who has been a participant on this forum for many years I can assure you that most of what we do is unnecessary discussion between model cycles. smile.gif It gets really good and focused once someone gets their hands on a new model.
post #250 of 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

I'm just trying to understand the testing that was done is all. Of course people will assume I'm being a kuro fanboy. Nevermind I'm not even doubting the ZT60's performance, D-Nice already said it might equal the kuro, i'm doubting the kuros.

The set up as seen in the photos looks fishy to me too as a past owner of the 8g and 9g. No way a Kuro I've ever seen looked like that.
post #251 of 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by barth2k View Post

You know, I can't help but detect just a smidgen, a tad, a hint, a slight whiff of humblebrag in these "Kuro when?" posts. A particular and distinct form of humblebrag among some Kuro owners[*] whereby a lamentation ("when oh when will someone make a set that surpasses my n-year-old Kuro before it dies") is used consciously or unconsciously to disguise a bit of bragging and schadenfreude ("ha ha, enjoy your crummy Al Gore-approved Panny and your elevated mll while I bask in the inky black non-glow of my Kuro that I had the deep pocket and foresight to shell out for years ago, biatches").

Call it the Kuro whinebrag ;-)

g,d&r

[*] not pointing fingers at anyone in particular, and I'm just having a little fun here so please, no outrage.

Well that's your problem for thinking that way. We just want PQ to continue to advance no matter who it's from. The best that did it just happen to be pioneer. And we're still waiting for the next. From what we know so far, that might be Panasonic.

We all win.
post #252 of 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

I'm just trying to understand the testing that was done is all. Of course people will assume I'm being a kuro fanboy. Nevermind I'm not even doubting the ZT60's performance, D-Nice already said it might equal the kuro, i'm doubting the kuros.
I meant no offense. I was just surmising he was picking up on a tone that he could gleam from some posts in the thread, which is never 100% reliable.
post #253 of 501
Gents and Ladies,
I recently replaced my 3rd gen Pio 433CMX because of the green glob that was expanding on the right upper side. Just curious as to what caused this? Panel has 2400hrs cost 4300.00 back in 2004
Thanks
post #254 of 501
"Panasonic TX-P60ZT60 (ZT60) Holds Its Own Against Kuro Challenge

Panasonic has officially launched its “Beyond The Reference” ZT60 plasma for the UK and European markets this afternoon. In a bold move that is designed to lay a lingering ghost to rest, the Japanese manufacturer actually demoed the much-anticipated plasma TV side-by-side against a now-discontinued Pioneer Kuro KRP-600A which is widely considered by many video enthusiasts to be the best flat-screen television of all time (until now).

Obviously, we won’t know for sure how the new Panasonic plasma compares to the venerable and sorely missed Kuro, but the fact that the company is directly pitting the two head-to-head certainly demonstrates confidence in the product, to say the least.

the black level of the 60ZT60 looks considerably better than last year’s best Panasonic plasma series, and subjectively assessed, is on par with the last-gen Kuro KRP-600A.

Pricing has yet to be set in stone, but is said to be around the £4000 mark ($6240 US)."

I can understand if you're in the market for a 60" $6000 TV the ZT60 may fit the bill, but if you own a perfectly good 60" Kuro PDP, what is so great about the ZT60 to compel us to replace our displays?
post #255 of 501
No Kuro looks like that. Sorry but they did something to make it cloudy, not crisp. The brightness looks elevated and color de-saturated. I seen a Kuro first hand and it was like my eyeballs witnessed a nuclear explosion and almost melted in my eye sockets due to the incredibly rich saturated colors and space black black levels. My heart skipped a beat and I almost fell to the floor realizing I had just seen what I could only determine as perfection.

That Kuro pic looks like a cheap Sanyo plasma. I know as I actually have a cheap Sanyo plasma in my bedroom and it actually looks a tad better than that Kuro pic. They've obviously went into the service sub-menu and turned color down and brightness up a bit.
post #256 of 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by shpankey View Post

No Kuro looks like that. Sorry but they did something to make it cloudy, not crisp. The brightness looks elevated and color de-saturated. I seen a Kuro first hand and it was like my eyeballs witnessed a nuclear explosion and almost melted in my eye sockets due to the incredibly rich saturated colors and space black black levels. My heart skipped a beat and I almost fell to the floor realizing I had just seen what I could only determine as perfection.

That Kuro pic looks like a cheap Sanyo plasma. I know as I actually have a cheap Sanyo plasma in my bedroom and it actually looks a tad better than that Kuro pic. They've obviously went into the service sub-menu and turned color down and brightness up a bit.

smile.gif
post #257 of 501
Until the Panny gets reviewed by a reputable site it will all be here say…
post #258 of 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by shpankey View Post

No Kuro looks like that. Sorry but they did something to make it cloudy, not crisp. The brightness looks elevated and color de-saturated. I seen a Kuro first hand and it was like my eyeballs witnessed a nuclear explosion and almost melted in my eye sockets due to the incredibly rich saturated colors and space black black levels. My heart skipped a beat and I almost fell to the floor realizing I had just seen what I could only determine as perfection.

That Kuro pic looks like a cheap Sanyo plasma. I know as I actually have a cheap Sanyo plasma in my bedroom and it actually looks a tad better than that Kuro pic. They've obviously went into the service sub-menu and turned color down and brightness up a bit.

As much as I love the Kuro's, the fanboys are hard to deal with. There is link in the bottom of the article showing the settings, the author has posted on other threads that the set was correctly set-up. It WAS NOT CRIPPLED...GIMPED.. or DELIBERATELY set to make the panny look better. If you are a Kuro owner, yes, maybe, just maybe, 6 years later there is something AS GOOD as your tv. Live with it. It is no knock on the Kuro, and making such un-substantiated claims of the article writer/reviewer deliberately manipulating the settings used on the Kuro and ZT60 in order to reach a chosen conclusion biased against YOUR preference calls into question YOUR OBJECTIVITY. Why is it so inconceivable that 6 years later, it might be matched in PQ ? It will still be a legend for the fact that it was the best for longer than anything else before and probably anything coming anytime soon.

PS. The Kuro in the picture and the ZT have a very similar PQ, so you are saying that in your "professional" opinion the new, latest greatest, top of the line tv (not to mention the VT next to ZT) looks the same to you as a "cheap Sanyo plasma" ? Maybe you can see why someone might question your opinion right ? The VT was only the VE shootout winner last year and I'm sure the pro's know much less than you right ?
Edited by pred1973 - 2/13/13 at 10:03am
post #259 of 501
I am not a professional nor a Kuro owner. As I said, I just seen one once. I have and have had for a long time a Panny 50" 1080p in the living room and a cheap Sanyo 50" 720p in the bedroom. I know what I saw in person and I'm just saying, that pic looks like my cheapo Sanyo I watch every night when I go to bed.

If respecting a TV's picture quality makes me a fanboy then that's what I am. But you've probably never seen me post about a Kuro but maybe 2 or 3 times ever, b/c I don't have one. I wish I did and am excited about getting the new zt60 (preordered from a thread here). You should also know, there's a service sub-menu (at least on my Panny, I know as I've been in it long ago) that also allows you to adjust brightness and color without affecting the regular menu settings... so just b/c someone showed or seen the regular menu settings and they looked proper doesn't really mean much. I could come over and adjust your service sub menu where your tv looked bad at it's current, proper, even calibrated settings within minutes.

I'm also in no way saying the zt60 won't be better. Not sure where you're getting that from. Don't assume things about me or profile me please. I happen to think the ZT60 is going to better the Kuro. I'm just saying that pic doesn't even look close to what I seen firsthand. Maybe it's the camera, or my monitors or likely they adjusted it to make it appear worse. You shouldn't trust PR departments. They're basically salesmen. They all lie and exaggerate the truth.

And for the record, I'm talking about this pic...

http://cdn.avsforum.com/6/61/614516fc_BC6PhbUCAAEr3dD.jpeg
Edited by shpankey - 2/13/13 at 10:18am
post #260 of 501
@pred1973

Man, can you hear yourself.

Do you honestly truly genuinely believe that any tv sat beside a new range is seriously going to be set up to (maximum) performance.

Well do you ?...

Because if you do - you are kidding yourself on big style.

It's the oldest trick in the book. You do realise that there are dozens of picture adjustments within a television or monitor not just basic picture setup.

People on here are right. There is something very fishy about the (washed out images)

I have seen a bottom of the range lcd look stronger.

I kid you not.

People should perhaps post some pictures of their own in comparison. That will put the whole nonsense to bed.
post #261 of 501
Point still stands that in that photo's all 3 sets are comparable, with the Kuro and ZT looking slightly better than the VT. The VT was last years shootout winner and the ZT is supposedly better than that. The statements about the Kuro being sabotaged for the photo would also indicate at least some small level of sabotage to the VT as well then, as even the pro's say the VT50 was close to 8G Kuro's. Think about that for a second. So they sabotaged a tv that is close to 8G, then sabotaged a 9G Kuro to make the ZT look the same.There is no logic to that. Why not really cripple the hell out of both the VT and the Kuro then, make the ZT look obviously better instead of only equal ? I'd have to hunt down the source again, but there are indications that only 20,000 ZT's will be made. They will sell every single one of them I bet. So there would be no need to go to those measures to sell 20,000 tv's. Its ridiculous the level of denial and conspiracy that some choose to believe, rather than to consider that finally after over half a decade, the best might be matched or bettered.
post #262 of 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by pred1973 View Post

As much as I love the Kuro's, the fanboys are hard to deal with. There is link in the bottom of the article showing the settings, the author has posted on other threads that the set was correctly set-up. It WAS NOT CRIPPLED...GIMPED.. or DELIBERATELY set to make the panny look better. If you are a Kuro owner, yes, maybe, just maybe, 6 years later there is something AS GOOD as your tv. Live with it. It is no knock on the Kuro, and making such un-substantiated claims of the article writer/reviewer deliberately manipulating the settings used on the Kuro and ZT60 in order to reach a chosen conclusion biased against YOUR preference calls into question YOUR OBJECTIVITY. Why is it so inconceivable that 6 years later, it might be matched in PQ ? It will still be a legend for the fact that it was the best for longer than anything else before and probably anything coming anytime soon.

PS. The Kuro in the picture and the ZT have a very similar PQ, so you are saying that in your "professional" opinion the new, latest greatest, top of the line tv (not to mention the VT next to ZT) looks the same to you as a "cheap Sanyo plasma" ? Maybe you can see why someone might question your opinion right ? The VT was only the VE shootout winner last year and I'm sure the pro's know much less than you right ?
Uh oh, looks like someone made a mistaken ASSumption. Actual videophile enthusiasts tend to be Kuro owners, so of course they want something that betters a TV that is 5 years old. wink.gif I'm speaking for myself, to be fair, but anyone who develops an unhealthy attachment to a TV needs to go for a mental health checkup. biggrin.gif
post #263 of 501
I did shoot an apology for the fanboy comment. Like I said to them, I think maybe I spend too much time reading these forums LOL. It gets to you after awhile how irrational people can be. The denial and conspiracy theories that you come across just to put down something that isn't even on the shelves yet grates on the nerves. Personally I missed out on the Kuro (my gf at the time, now my wife, didn't want anything bigger than a 42" at the time, said the apartment was too small...grrrrr) so I have gone through 4 tv's now trying find something as good as my buddies Kuro. The idea that it is preferable to believe that someone would go to such great lengths to sabotage the settings on multiple sets and publish the results in order to sell tv's (when they are a reviewer and don't actually benefit from the sales) that aren't even for sale yet and would invariably be found out immediately on the release of said set rather than to allow the possibility that the sets could actually be equal seems to require therapy to me as well.
post #264 of 501
Those are suspicious minds for you! I'm anxious for the 3rd party reviewer/calibrator measurements, so I'm not swinging too far in either direction.

And regarding missing the Kuro, since you sacrificed, you now have a (I presume) healthy relationship with a human being, lol.
post #265 of 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by pred1973 View Post

Point still stands that in that photo's all 3 sets are comparable, with the Kuro and ZT looking slightly better than the VT. The VT was last years shootout winner and the ZT is supposedly better than that. The statements about the Kuro being sabotaged for the photo would also indicate at least some small level of sabotage to the VT as well then, as even the pro's say the VT50 was close to 8G Kuro's. Think about that for a second. So they sabotaged a tv that is close to 8G, then sabotaged a 9G Kuro to make the ZT look the same.There is no logic to that. Why not really cripple the hell out of both the VT and the Kuro then, make the ZT look obviously better instead of only equal ? I'd have to hunt down the source again, but there are indications that only 20,000 ZT's will be made. They will sell every single one of them I bet. So there would be no need to go to those measures to sell 20,000 tv's. Its ridiculous the level of denial and conspiracy that some choose to believe, rather than to consider that finally after over half a decade, the best might be matched or bettered.

Ok lets keep it real here. The VT50 didn't match the 8G, in fact it wasn't really close. Black levels negligible.

The processing on the 8G is in a different league. As is the same on a 9G, except the 9G is a whole lot blacker.

This hype we have been hearing for years. And the same old same old DESPERATE for this Kuro to be beaten. People go on and on, bleating about how this is the kuro killer we have been waiting for. Is black level the only thing about Pioneers - no.

If the ZT matches the first 9G's for black level... So what... Is that the be all and end all regarding image quality/integrity. No. It's the anti Kuro guys suffering delusions.

People 'some' are building this thing right up. Let's remember one little fact. Pioneer sold every screen at a large loss. It's a world renowned fact. Yet Panasonic (always) make a profit on each and everyone.

I would wait and see. But please don't jump the gun expecting the world. This still has 3D and other gimmicks that videophiles don't really need. If you want out and out quality - buy a pro monitor with higher grade components. Remembering also that the M's were/are industrial models. If i had believed the hype every year i would have been on my 5th Panasonic consumer model since buying a 9G lol. "But i forgot"... This year is going to be different, like last year, and the year before that, and the year before that. And so on and so on. It's been said this new red phosphor does nothing for rec 709. Its been said not to expect better black levels, especially the last 9G's. It's obvious to anyone that "beyond the reference " doesn't exist. Not in real life and certainly not on a consumer display.

If it matches even three quarters of the all round performance if an 8G. Then it's doing well.
post #266 of 501
^Matching 9G levels is not out of the question. I know you're putting faith in your trusty OLED display as being the final arbiter, but I'm playing the wait-and-see approach.
post #267 of 501
^From my recollection, the VT50 at least matched the black level of the 8G.
post #268 of 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

^From my recollection, the VT50 at least matched the black level of the 8G.

careful now, I was being diplomatic... that kind of sacriledge might not be welcome biggrin.gif
post #269 of 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post

Ok lets keep it real here. The VT50 didn't match the 8G, in fact it wasn't really close. Black levels negligible.

The processing on the 8G is in a different league. As is the same on a 9G, except the 9G is a whole lot blacker.

If the ZT matches the first 9G's for black level... So what... Is that the be all and end all regarding image quality/integrity. No. It's the anti Kuro guys suffering delusions.

I mentioned this a bit in the VT50 thread and the normal defenders jumped on me. The processing in the VT is really lacking for a premier 2012 product . Not to make a joke at Panasonic; but while they're busy copying Samsung's asthetics they should also copy their video processing engine.

Wasn't 2012 the 1st year Panasonic used their own internally developed video processing? Maybe it just wasn't ready yet...

Yes, the black level thing is a bit blown out of proportion. Sure going from .002fl to .001fl produces big number changes and doubles your contrast ratio but it doesn't double picture quality. The VT50 is plenty black, it's the processing that really makes the TV fall on it's face at times. Some of it also due to how they achieved the deep blacks they did; as there is some sacrifices made to get the blacks on the VT50.

All in all the VT50 is a good TV with great blacks. But it's by no means a product that has been highly polished and finely tuned and no expense spared. Perhaps 2013 will be the year they can do it... Although my $$ is on the F8500 to be the best all around Plasma TV.

At the shootout this year they should try to include some sample videos from re-encoded blu-ray's and DVD's which are visually similar to poor cable quality. This would be an aid in making the decision of who really does have the best processing. Watching pristine BR videos won't tell you the full story...
Edited by SiGGy - 2/14/13 at 4:58am
post #270 of 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post

Ok lets keep it real here. The VT50 didn't match the 8G, in fact it wasn't really close. Black levels negligible.

The processing on the 8G is in a different league. As is the same on a 9G, except the 9G is a whole lot blacker.

This hype we have been hearing for years. And the same old same old DESPERATE for this Kuro to be beaten. People go on and on, bleating about how this is the kuro killer we have been waiting for. Is black level the only thing about Pioneers - no.

If the ZT matches the first 9G's for black level... So what... Is that the be all and end all regarding image quality/integrity. No. It's the anti Kuro guys suffering delusions.

People 'some' are building this thing right up. Let's remember one little fact. Pioneer sold every screen at a large loss. It's a world renowned fact. Yet Panasonic (always) make a profit on each and everyone.

I would wait and see. But please don't jump the gun expecting the world. This still has 3D and other gimmicks that videophiles don't really need. If you want out and out quality - buy a pro monitor with higher grade components. Remembering also that the M's were/are industrial models. If i had believed the hype every year i would have been on my 5th Panasonic consumer model since buying a 9G lol. "But i forgot"... This year is going to be different, like last year, and the year before that, and the year before that. And so on and so on. It's been said this new red phosphor does nothing for rec 709. Its been said not to expect better black levels, especially the last 9G's. It's obvious to anyone that "beyond the reference " doesn't exist. Not in real life and certainly not on a consumer display.

If it matches even three quarters of the all round performance if an 8G. Then it's doing well.

Owned the 8g and 9g and now own VT50. I'd put the VT50 between the 8g and the 9g. The 8g blacks have mystically improved as the anything Kuro myth has grown. In reality the blacks were shite and I couldn't wait to sell it and get a 9g. Hated the blacks on the 8g.
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