Where is my (our) Kuro replacement? - Page 3

^ "most of us".

Lmao: any evidence of such an absurd, baseless assumption, or is this more "let's see what will stick?"

Yeah, thought as much. I'd be willing to bet that less than 10% of 9g kuros were bought on "closeout".

No reasonable enthusiast discounts the elite in the slightest. But of course that's not the issue.

Check just how closely they compare, performance-wise.

In 5 years time.

Check how the screen sizes compare.

In 5 years time.

Check the price points.

In 5 years time.

All are painfully obvious to anyone asking about a "kuro replacement".

James
Edited by mastermaybe - 1/26/13 at 9:17am

When PDP makers could market their panels for 5, 6, $7000 a pop they had incentive to improve the capabilities of flat screen TVs in order to gain a competitive advantage. Once flat screen TV prices declined, companies like Pioneer exited the market because their products were not profitable. Now that PDPs are a commodity item manufacturers have no incentive to improve a product with marginal returns for their investment when the vast majority of consumers won't notice or cannot appreciate the difference.

Hopefully, as time goes on there will be enough consumers willing to pay top dollar to compel manufacturers to bring OLED technology mainstream.


You never know who is on the other end of their keyboard and I’m sure many Forum participants who happen to earn a household income that places them in the top 5% - 6% of U.S. wage earners do not feel compelled to buy the most expensive flat panel TV available for some bragging rights at the AVSF.

^ the 9G kuros were never competing against any other 5, or 6, or $7k panels. And they were and still are not commodities...hi end PDP's that is. No different than the Elite today: how many panels (comparably-sized) are within $2k of it?

There are and were plenty of "decent" panels available under $2k. That's not the issue.

The issue(s) is/are and remain(s) just what I outlined above.

Hi end image quality has not significantly progressed. Hi end prices have remained very much unchanged...especially when adj for inflation. And screen sizes are little changed for better performing panels.

James

Uhhhh.....you are. You seem upset that we kuro owners want something that's better than what was released.........5 years ago.

What a ridiculous assumption. You're letting your anger make up wild accusations about kuro owners. I assure you you are wrong.

And yes we did just have CES. Just like the many other CES's we've had since the kuro released. Yes we know what's coming, just like we knew what was coming every year since the kuro released. So where is the display that clearly, undoubtedly exceeds the kuro? Take your time, i'll give you a minute.
The samsung was my first HDTV. I didn't know anything about PQ aspects like contrast ratio, color, motion etc. It wasn't until i saw a kuro did i immediately have some idea about what those things ment, and why people on AVS keep mentioning them, and how they improve PQ.

I've seen plenty other TV's while i had (and still have and use) my samsung. None stood out so obviously like the kuro.
No there won't be. If the the ZT60 and F8500 is clearly superior to kuro, most owners will be happy to upgrade to the bigger sizes. Who doesn't want a 65" kuro? I would rather 70"+ but still.

There will be no need for threads like this if a manufacture would just take down the undying zombie that is the kuro. You gotta should it in the head!
Heh. Likewise for you?

What's going to be real funny when the kuro is finally beat is the amount of "the king in dead" threads. Oh boy. I can't wait for those. This place is going to get interesting.

Hypocritical and ironic.
Edited by saprano - 1/26/13 at 12:52pm

I don't really buy that you need more energy to produce kuro PQ. The reason why no other company has surpassed it all these years, only come close, is because they don't want to spend money, and do R&D, to do so. We could've gotten a kuro successor years ago. Nobody want to do it. Only Sharp stepped up to the plate. But it's an LCD.

^Pretty much. Panasonic hasn't been competing with Sharp and weren't competing with Pioneer. Their competitors are Samsung and LG for the most part. Making TVs only for the high-end market was not high on their priority because it doesn't make much sense financially. But that seems to have changed this year... both Panasonic and Samsung seem to be 'going for it' with the ZT60 and F8500.

Except that it's not. So your statement is inaccurate. If it were, I'd be the first to shout it from the rooftops.

Ya, but then we wouldnt have Great Lakes Burning River beer.


Im chomping at the bit ready to pay someone for a better TV, but one isnt available. I dont care about insane brightness, my 600m is far from the brightest during the day, but it has way more than enough brightness for a movie at night (which is what I care about).

65zt60 could be promising, but i would prefer a 70 since im already at 60". I could buy a sharp 70" elite today if I wanted, but its not an upgrade except in size.
Edited by irfan - 1/27/13 at 8:30am

That's a perefect example of a "rationalization".

Plasma owners tolerate this obvious weakness of the technology, but it's clearly a point of inferiority.

Things are better today than they were a few years ago, but there is an insufficiency here that some of us tolerate even with recent purchases (myself) and others no longer would accept (folks like Ken Ross, who may have had other reasons, but nevertheless went LCD).

My SUV is good enough for 99% of road conditions, but it's not "just as good as a Range Rover" for the times when you need a Range Rover. And I don't pretend it is.

Well no **** its rationalization... its what keeps me from buying a new TV every damn year... I want something that is better than my own tv IN AN AREA I CARE ABOUT (in this case, black levels, PQ and size) . not once have I thought about replacing the TV because of brightness. Its bright enough as is, and its not set to maximum output as is, so why on earth would I care about more brightness? Somehow you take personal offense when someone claims Plasma is awesome. For that, I have no solution.

Is a Range Rover driver going to buy a Honda Pilot because its more reliable? Or is he going to "rationalize" and accept the inferiority of the Range Rover reliability? Range Rover drivers tolerate that obvious weakness, and its clearly inferior in reliability.

Rogo owns a Plasma, I don't think he's taking personal offense over that (if he is at all). It just wouldn't be logical unless he is projecting his disdain for Plasma on the rest of us in this thread (which I am not insinuating he is, though he is probably tired of hearing about the Kuro ). That said, I agree that more brightness is not an improvement that I'm seeking in my next upgrade. To me, it is mostly about bettering (or matching since I have a 50") those ubiquitous black levels.

If a person is a video enthusiast why would they ever look forward to products every year that are INFERIOR to what was produced 5 years ago?

And if posting here EVERY year for the next million years made absolutely no difference to the video display companies that were producing INFERIOR products for ALL of those MILLION YEARS--I'd still for a MILLION years point out that they suck compared to a Kuro!

I could care less about the name Kuro!

I also could care less about the fortunes of video display companies that produce displays that are INFERIOR to the Kuro!

The emperor has no clothes!

Even if the video display companies don't want to hear it--IF they peruse these forums they will until the day I die KNOW that I KNOW that they KNOW that what they're producing just doesn't cut it!

This reminds me of Alabama callers who call into local radio sport call in shows here in Alabama who get offended anytime anyone points out any minute flaw in the Alabama football team.

I love the Alabama Crimson Tide. But if the play calling isn't 100% perfect in any particular game I'll point it out!

I don't have to be Nick Saban to know when a dumb call is made just like I don't have to be a video engineer or a business analyst to know when INFERIOR calls are made by video display companies when it comes to video picture quality!!!

It's no different for CES and the Video display industry.

If their displays aren't as good as a Kuro from 5 years ago it should be pointed out!

You haven't betrayed the video universe if you do so!

I refuse to RAH-RAH for the non-superior!

Why should anybody do that?

The real question is this: is AVS an enthusiast site or a PROMOTION site for what the Video Display Industry is currently selling?!!!

Roll Tide! Roll Kuro! Don't believe every pretty sounding poster here that claims that the CURRENT video displays are PRETTIER than your REAL girlfriend!
Edited by Artwood - 1/27/13 at 2:32pm

Just to be crystal clear, I'm not angry about anything. I'm just unbelievably bored of Kuro owners, every thread posted by Kuro owners and nearly everything said by Kuro owners justifying every thread posted by Kuro owners. Unbelievably bored.

And, and before you again misinterpret what that means, you should be aware, this past weekend, I referenced the Kuro in an OLED discussion on AVS Forum. So it's not the Kuro I'm bored of, just Kuro owners and their endless prattling on about the Kuro.

Good day.

I bought a plasma in 2012. I'm pretty sure I knew how bright it would be. While all of you might be 100% fine with how your ABL stops your screen from delivering the same brightness on all scene types, I'm not fine with it. I accept it -- again, I bought a plasma in 2012. While all of you might be fine with not having a "retina searing" mode for use on a bright sunny day, I'm not fine with it. I accept it and my TV has a really nice filter that makes it pretty darned usable during the day (in a way my 2007 plasma was barely so).

But the idea that plasma is really good in this realm -- or even "good enough" -- is a rationalization. It's a lot like the Range Rover guy tolerating his vehicle's crap-ass reliability. He might do that because he likes to off road a lot, but it doesn't mean his car is good enough.

If the only time I ever noticed the weakness of my TV was when it cut to the end of a commercial (and really, that's a lot of when I notice it to be honest), that's unacceptable. Not because I care about seeing the GEICO logo surrounded by bright white, but because there is no reason I shouldn't see it that way, but for the limitations of plasma.

I'm delighted so few of you care because it means you are spending any psychic energy at all feeling the limitations of your TVs. I, however, am reminded it of regularly. And because of that, I am more in tune with notice the very subtle times it affects "real content",

So while I might not ever calibrate my TV much beyond low 40s in foot-lamberts, I sure as hell don't think a TV that (a) can't do much more (b) can't do anywhere near that on full field images is without meaningful limitations.

And with that, I'll let people return to their regularly scheduled rationalizations.

We all use them to get by.

You're crazy man. If you're tired of kuro owners and their threads don't enter them. It really boggles my mind how you see a thread titled kuro and feel the need to post in it just tell people to shut up. Like i said, that's trolling and i think against the rules. You don't like a thread scroll pass it, don't purposely go in to attack the members just because you don't like what's being talked about. How old are you?

I don't like LCD owners and the way they make up false claims about plasmas. I see it all the time in the LCD forum. So you know what i do? I STAY AWAY from that section. I don't enter every thread just to argue with them.

To be honest, ABL doesn't really bother me. I'm not denying it exist on plasmas and the effect it has

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1451697/panasonic-zt60-plasma-at-ces-2013/90#post_22877471

But it's still very bright to me. And i'm a person who still uses LCD. My samsung is so bright that i always use the energy saver mode on high because the brightness is too much. Even in the daytime! Full screen white on my kuro looks just as bright and crisp as full screen white on my samsung or any other LCD i've seen. Obviously in actuality it's not bright as an LCD, but the point is i don't really notice it.

The HBO show Enlightened begins and ends with the entire screen white with green text. I don't notice any reduction in brightness. Again, the white is bright and crisp.

If Kuro PDP owners are so boring why does AVSF maintain a Kuro sticky thread?

The Official Pioneer 9G non-Elite KURO Owner's Discussion Thread

Honeslty who cares........at this point both sides have been stated we are jsut going around in circles....Some see that there have been advancements that exceed the Kuro, in others (black level) they have not (as of yet)....Just becasue people are vocal does not mean they are "interesting".....I mean heck if everyone owns the same thing they can be interresting to each other ;-) doesnt mean that they are interesting to others......


Where is the Kuro replacement? Well it all depends on what you are looking for, if you want the black levels there isnt one yet...You can be surprised as you want to be, but to get htose levels the set is power hungry which is something the new sets cant be.......

but I am going to get come popcorn as I see this thread going back and forth back and forth as they usually do.....

Is it against the law to make a power hungry plasma?

What is the brightest plasma in the history of the world?

Are current plasmas increasing in brightness performance or not?

Will 2014 be plasma's final statement in picture quality improvements?

What was the reason for Panasonic to buy Pioneer's patents if they were never going to produce a display that was superior to Pioneer's Kuro? Was the price paid for them just to keep anyone else from getting them? Is that a good use of money?

I think what a lot of people want to know is what will be plasma's final statement in picture quality so they can buy that as a bridge until OLED gets larger and cheaper and a reality OR in the case of an all LCD video universe until it gets quite better for plasma owners who don't like LCD.

I guess it's hard to know if there is any improvement left in plasma--when the last year you can get that quality--and when OLED will be REAL--LARGE--and ZT-60 COMPARATIVELY priced--and IF LCD will get substantially better--current LCD improvement other than the Elite is non existent--and does anyone know IF LCD's picture quality in 4K sets other than 4K resolution will happen?

2013 looks like promised OLED but is it vapor ware or not and promised 4K LCD will it look better or not--but in actuality only the ZT-60 being better but not a Kuro DESTROYER?

Maybe 2014 will be the bridge display year and 2016 will be when great looking 4K and OLED becomes a practical reality?

Every time I read this I think to myself,,, right, like who can tell the difference between .001 ft-L with the naked eye.

Is there any proof of this beyond conjecture?

I can't think of many 5-year-old sets that bring out the drama like this one in any case.

And yes, Rogo, rationalization is required because no display is perfect, like me feeling more compelled to restrict viewing to low-lighting conditions in order to enjoy the best PQ along with getting distracted by the DSE (dirty screen effect) on vertical motion pans (evident on solid light backgrounds) as well as the uneven phosphor wear due to watching predominately movies (which makes for a lower black level in the center of the screen versus the top and the bottom, but this is related more to Plasma in general of course). The ABL concern rates far below all of that for me.

To corral them so they don't invade the Panasonic threads

But seriously, when the Duesenberg was discontinued in 1937, owners of these magnificent machines continued to post in all the Cadillac and Lincoln threads saying stuff like "the Caddy is nice and all, but it ain't no Doozey" etc and as hard as Cadillac and Lincoln tried to make a Duesenberg killer, there were aspects of the car that couldn't be matched even years after they left the automobile industry. After a while, people got used to settling for Caddys and Lincolns and Chryslers but the Duesenberg always remained the king.

There was an internet and forums back in 1937 when the Duesenberg was discontinued???? Just messing with ya Randy I totally get your post.

As far as laws, there are Energy Star regulations taht the companies meet, if they dont well, lets jsut say good luck with selling thier panel.....


Bah I really dont care enough ot prove it one way or the other......I have given up the "stick measuring" long ago (and I am much younger than most here).....There just isnt any joy in the my stick is better than your stick...If the TV makes you happy then the rest is all a "popularity" contest....

I'm probably in your age range actually (just an educated guess, aka mid-30s). The only point I was making is that we can't prove why Panasonic has taken so long to reach black levels comparable to the 9G. I have a feeling it has more to do with design decisions that were not compatible at the time with their streamlined manufacturing process, as they seem to have finally arrived with the ZT60. I only know that all panels owned previous to the Kuro were visually put to shame after I bought into the hype.

Maybe they always could but they dole the blacks out little by little to keep people upgrading? Many find it hard to justify buying a used Kuro for more than one can buy a 65" Panny? They saw what happened with the Kuro....people bought one 4-5 years ago and haven't spent money on a display since?

lol, how conspiratorial of you. Might be.

D-Nice,

Do you think the new Samsung F8500 will give the ZT60 a good run?

Yes

Holy, both Panasonique and Samdung on the precipice of measuring up to the king.