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Where is my (our) Kuro replacement? - Page 4

post #91 of 501
1/28/13 at 2:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Holy, both Panasonique and Samdung on the precipice of measuring up to the king. eek.gif
Samsung has been giving Panasonic a run for its money for the last two generations. That is not going to change this year.
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post #92 of 501
1/28/13 at 3:25pm
I know one thing: until the moment that D-Nice says that some plasma kicks the greatest Pioneer Kuro's a$$ then all plasmas up to then are INFERIOR and anyone who doesn't like me or anyone else saying it no matter how many times and for no matter how many years is really just a boot licker for the AV Industry!

I can remember when some of those boot lickers were looked up to as future seers of the video quality state of the art.

Now all they do is try to sophisticatedly steer posts away from that to why don't we all just love what is being produced now!

When did they sell out?

Evidently this year when CES didn't have any real plasma or LCD news and future 4K LCD and OLED dreams weren't believed as much as pipe dreams in the past!

Can't anyone remember the excitement about future Pioneer plasmas that would be better than the 500Ms--how Pioneer would give us absolute black?

And by the way--exactly why is it that we don't see that absolute black thread around here anymore?

Is it because the Industry doesn't want people thinking about it?

We've gone from Apollo 17 blasting off in the night sky to Americans without a rocket to get into space.

Yes my friends--sometimes what is actually being produced does go backwards!

The dreamers don't bother me.

The apologizers for the AV Industry do--they are the real dream killers!
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post #93 of 501
1/28/13 at 3:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9179mhb View Post

If Kuro PDP owners are so boring why does AVSF maintain a Kuro sticky thread? confused.gif

The Official Pioneer 9G non-Elite KURO Owner's Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by cssnms View Post

Every time I read this I think to myself,,, right, like who can tell the difference between .001 ft-L with the naked eye. rolleyes.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

To corral them so they don't invade the Panasonic threads biggrin.gif

Yep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

And yes, Rogo, rationalization is required because no display is perfect, like me feeling more compelled to restrict viewing to low-lighting conditions in order to enjoy the best PQ along with getting distracted by the DSE (dirty screen effect) on vertical motion pans (evident on solid light backgrounds) as well as the uneven phosphor wear due to watching predominately movies (which makes for a lower black level in the center of the screen versus the top and the bottom, but this is related more to Plasma in general of course). The ABL concern rates far below all of that for me.

100% fair.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

But seriously, when the Duesenberg was discontinued in 1937, owners of these magnificent machines continued to post in all the Cadillac and Lincoln threads saying stuff like "the Caddy is nice and all, but it ain't no Doozey" etc and as hard as Cadillac and Lincoln tried to make a Duesenberg killer, there were aspects of the car that couldn't be matched even years after they left the automobile industry. After a while, people got used to settling for Caddys and Lincolns and Chryslers but the Duesenberg always remained the king.

My grandpappy loved his Stutz Randy. He said the Doozey was not Bearcat and the Caddy, well, whatever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

There was an internet and forums back in 1937 when the Duesenberg was discontinued???? Just messing with ya Randy smile.gif I totally get your post.

They used to post on the boards in the town square. The problem was every "flame war" and the board was burned to the ground.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

As far as laws, there are Energy Star regulations taht the companies meet, if they dont well, lets jsut say good luck with selling thier panel.....

This is a canard. The 2012 Panasonic VT's 65" are not Energy Star. The 2013s won't be either. I suspect neither are the larger models (60" and 65") of other series. And yet they sold. Even to "greens" like me who decided to spend the extra $40 on electricity for the year to get better picture quality. (Well, for me it's not $40 extra really, I make my own power and surplus power is only bought back at the lowest wholesale rate so it ends up being about the value of 1/3 of retail power; i.e. more like $15.)
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post #94 of 501
1/28/13 at 3:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Samsung has been giving Panasonic a run for its money for the last two generations. That is not going to change this year.
I'd overheard that. I have still been hesitant to give Samdung another run after some QC and poor customer service experiences in the past, but I suspect their new flagship panel is partly keeping the ZT60 SRP in check.
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post #95 of 501
1/28/13 at 4:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

I know one thing: until the moment that D-Nice says that some plasma kicks the greatest Pioneer Kuro's a$$ then all plasmas up to then are INFERIOR and anyone who doesn't like me or anyone else saying it no matter how many times and for no matter how many years is really just a boot licker for the AV Industry!

I can remember when some of those boot lickers were looked up to as future seers of the video quality state of the art.

Now all they do is try to sophisticatedly steer posts away from that to why don't we all just love what is being produced now!

When did they sell out?

Evidently this year when CES didn't have any real plasma or LCD news and future 4K LCD and OLED dreams weren't believed as much as pipe dreams in the past!

Can't anyone remember the excitement about future Pioneer plasmas that would be better than the 500Ms--how Pioneer would give us absolute black?

And by the way--exactly why is it that we don't see that absolute black thread around here anymore?

Is it because the Industry doesn't want people thinking about it?

We've gone from Apollo 17 blasting off in the night sky to Americans without a rocket to get into space.

Yes my friends--sometimes what is actually being produced does go backwards!

The dreamers don't bother me.

The apologizers for the AV Industry do--they are the real dream killers!
I would not go quite as far as you have in this post. The current VT50 is an excellent display. The ZT60 improves on that. I would classify both reference in many areas... black level included... but they are not equal or better than anything I have except my 4280HD. So, for myself, and myself only, I would have to compromise on items that I don't currently want to. Key word there is currently smile.gif. I may change my mind at some point. This is the longest I've has TVs since going HD.
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post #96 of 501
1/28/13 at 4:46pm
Quote:
If a person is a video enthusiast why would they ever look forward to products every year that are INFERIOR to what was produced 5 years ago?

I've been dealing with this in the audio world for longer than 5 years.
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post #97 of 501
1/28/13 at 5:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

I would not go quite as far as you have in this post. The current VT50 is an excellent display. The ZT60 improves on that. I would classify both reference in many areas... black level included... but they are not equal or better than anything I have except my 4280HD. So, for myself, and myself only, I would have to compromise on items that I don't currently want to. Key word there is currently smile.gif. I may change my mind at some point. This is the longest I've has TVs since going HD.

If Panasonic would have released a 70" it might have been more enticing for some, but hopefully there is at least a rather notable upgrade from the VT50 to ZT60.
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post #98 of 501
1/28/13 at 5:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

If Panasonic would have released a 70" it might have been more enticing for some, but hopefully there is at least a rather notable upgrade from the VT50 to ZT60.
Yes, a 70" PDP would be very tempting. VT50 to ZT60, no so much.... IMO
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post #99 of 501
1/28/13 at 5:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Yes, a 70" PDP would be very tempting. VT50 to ZT60, no so much.... IMO

Maybe 2014 will be the next real notable improvement? It seems every two years Panasonic goes to a new platform.
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post #100 of 501
1/28/13 at 5:49pm
I'm guessing the 2014 panels will be based on the ZT60 panel. Or maybe the ZT60 is just a prelude to a more impressive 2014 lineup.
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post #101 of 501
1/28/13 at 10:38pm
If not 2014 then why did Panasonic buy the patents?
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post #102 of 501
1/29/13 at 12:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Yes, a 70" PDP would be very tempting. VT50 to ZT60, no so much.... IMO

It wouldn't even occur to me to upgrade from VT50 to ZT60, even if I could do so for trivial dollars.

The inconvenience would exist even if cost were say $300-500. And I doubt the improvement would justify my effort involved.

Others might disagree, but probably not many.
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post #103 of 501
1/29/13 at 5:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Yes, a 70" PDP would be very tempting. VT50 to ZT60, no so much.... IMO

70" would have made me open my wallet for sure. I will just enjoy my inferior Kuro for another year it looks like. Oh well sucks living in a 1st world nation at times.
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post #104 of 501
1/29/13 at 6:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

If not 2014 then why did Panasonic buy the patents?

Perhaps to keep it out of the hands of competitors as well as for research purposes?
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post #105 of 501
1/29/13 at 7:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Perhaps to keep it out of the hands of competitors as well as for research purposes?

A good investment if your surmise is correct imo.
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post #106 of 501
1/29/13 at 7:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

If not 2014 then why did Panasonic buy the patents?

Because they'd already bought their engineers, and they wanted to complete the set wink.gif
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post #107 of 501
1/29/13 at 8:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

Because they'd already bought their engineers, and they wanted to complete the set wink.gif
i thought the top guys went to sharp:)
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post #108 of 501
1/29/13 at 8:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigyboy View Post

i thought the top guys went to sharp:)

No, Sharp purchased the right to use the "Elite" name. Many of the Pioneer Elite engineers went to Panasonic.
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post #109 of 501
1/29/13 at 8:53am
I don't think Panasonic is not capable to make a "Kuru", the problem is making a kuro at reasonable cost in order to compete with the Koreans. There is also the energy factor, they need to reduce consumption to comply with laws on states like California. It's not only a matter of technology, it's the business side also.
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post #110 of 501
1/29/13 at 8:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by slimoli View Post

I don't think Panasonic is not capable to make a "Kuru", the problem is making a kuro at reasonable cost in order to compete with the Koreans. There is also the energy factor, they need to reduce consumption to comply with laws on states like California. It's not only a matter of technology, it's the business side also.

Exactly.
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post #111 of 501
1/29/13 at 9:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigyboy View Post

i thought the top guys went to sharp:)

No, the ones that Panasonic didn't want went to Sharp tongue.gif

Many Pioneer engineers left Pioneer and went to Panasonic when Panasonic was going to start manufacturing plasma panel modules for Pioneer, but that plan fell through and about a year later Pioneer exited the display business and then a 2nd wave of engineers lateraled over to Panasonic. Sharp got some of the remaining engineers.
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post #112 of 501
1/29/13 at 9:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by slimoli View Post

I don't think Panasonic is not capable to make a "Kuru", the problem is making a kuro at reasonable cost in order to compete with the Koreans. There is also the energy factor, they need to reduce consumption to comply with laws on states like California. It's not only a matter of technology, it's the business side also.


SHHHH!!!! Don't tell tell people that. We need to keep pretending Panasonic should be making their plasma's to the exact same specs as the Kuro's since the Kuro's were obviously were so profitable!
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post #113 of 501
1/29/13 at 9:53am
The F8500 set was getting stronger reactions than the ZT60 by people involved in the AV community.

Samsung actually makes plasmas that have a very enticing image, there's something very CRT like and it's part of their set's charm.

If the black level can finally get down between the 8-9G Kuro range, they've got a winner. Still wondering if the 2014 sets will be like the ZT60 or is it something different entirely. And will Samsung pull out all the stops to make a plasma next year that beats Panasonic in blacks.
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post #114 of 501
1/29/13 at 10:09am
ANY display manufacture can make a TV with kuro performance and even better. Even Vizio. That's not what we, at least me, are arguing. People are wondering why the kuro benchmark hasn't been passed. Forget matched or creeping close, the technology is 5 years old, we want something better. Technology is suppose to move forward, not stand still. You have to wonder what level of pioneer would be up to if they were still in the business. It would be their 14'th generation panel. I hope panasonic eventually uses the Fuga processor pioneer was going to use in their 10G models. I wonder where that ECC display they showed at CES 08 is? Has to be somewhere in their office right? Haha. They should give it away.

OLED is the true advancement from the kuro it seems.
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post #115 of 501
1/29/13 at 10:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmarceau View Post

The F8500 set was getting stronger reactions than the ZT60 by people involved in the AV community.

That does seem to be the case and for what it's worth, the Samsung rep at CES in the Robert Zohn video seemed very confident Samsung was, in his words, "taking it this year" as the top plasma.
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post #116 of 501
1/29/13 at 2:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

ANY display manufacture can make a TV with kuro performance and even better. Even Vizio. That's not what we, at least me, are arguing. People are wondering why the kuro benchmark hasn't been passed. .

Probably a number of reasons including;
  • They need to engineer plasma’s to meet certain regulations
  • They need to sell these plasma’s at a price to move them which the Kuro failed to do it seems
  • Maybe its difficult to meet the Kuro benchmarks while trying to meet the above two points(regulations and price)

Quote:
Technology is suppose to move forward, not stand still.


It is moving forward. Panasonic displays have been getting better every year in most areas. The only manufacture who hasn’t moved forward is Pioneer for obvious reasons. Out of business
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post #117 of 501
1/29/13 at 2:23pm
Panasonic hasn't succumbed to Energy Star regulations for their high-end VT50s. I still say it's questionable to pin that as the primary reason for the lack of advancement. Manufacturing costs would seem to be the biggest drawback (and maybe to keep prospective buyers on a leash waiting for the next incremental improvement wink.gif).
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post #118 of 501
1/29/13 at 2:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Panasonic hasn't succumbed to Energy Star regulations for their high-end VT50s. I still say it's questionable to pin that as the primary reason for the lack of advancement. Manufacturing costs would seem to be the biggest drawback (and maybe to keep prospective buyers on a leash waiting for the next incremental improvement wink.gif).



Have they met it for the ST, GT...etc?
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post #119 of 501
1/29/13 at 2:35pm
That I don't know.
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post #120 of 501
1/29/13 at 2:38pm
I don't think any of the larger Panasonic panels (55"+) met energy star requirements. Only a few low-end Samsung plasmas met them.

edit: http://downloads.energystar.gov/bi/qplist/tv_prod_list.pdf?dc05-6509
Edited by rahzel - 1/29/13 at 2:47pm
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