or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+) › Trinnov MC set up guide with SSP and JVB modded Oppo!
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Trinnov MC set up guide with SSP and JVB modded Oppo! - Page 3

post #61 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post

Alternatively, he could purchase a Datasat AP20 without Dirac Live. They have a version with 8 channels of digital inputs and outputs and another with 16 channels. However, this is a pro unit, since it is not geared toward consumers, so it may lack some niceties he may be accustomed to as a consumer (e.g there are no conventional connections in the back panel, he must use breakout cables). However, he should have no need for matching transformers.

However, due to HDMI licensing restrictions, the AES/EBU outputs on this unit would downsample the signal coming in over HDMI to 48/16. The modded Oppo does not have this restriction.
post #62 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

However, due to HDMI licensing restrictions, the AES/EBU outputs on this unit would downsample the signal coming in over HDMI to 48/16. The modded Oppo does not have this restriction.
Yes and no. However, I thought we are not talking about HDMI input. I.e. If one is using a modified Oppo as the source and forgoing its HDMI outputs, then the A20 would have no restrictions on its digital outputs.
post #63 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post

Yes and no. However, I thought we are not talking about HDMI input. I.e. If one is using a modified Oppo as the source and forgoing its HDMI outputs, then the A20 would have no restrictions on its digital outputs.

I see. Yes, if you are using the S/PDIF outs on the Oppo and the S/PDIF inputs on the datasat, and then the AES/EBU outputs on the datasat this would work. However, unless I am misunderstanding, in such a configuration the datasat would effectively serve as an extremely expensive s/pdif to AES/EBU converter, doing pretty much the same as what the Z-system Z8 digital routed would do.
post #64 of 150
You are forgetting about the 16 ch of digital inputs and outputs. It was suggested as an alternative to the Meridian option. BTW, we are talking about the Pro version, which is expensive, but not in the same ballpark as the consumer version, especially since he would not be paying for Dirac Live.
post #65 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post

You are forgetting about the 16 ch of digital inputs and outputs. It was suggested as an alternative to the Meridian option. BTW, we are talking about the Pro version, which is expensive, but not in the same ballpark as the consumer version, especially since he would not be paying for Dirac Live.

Yes, the datasat would be a nice "digital integration hub", do dolby decoding for sources other than the Oppo and digital input switching, and make the (very kludgy) Meridian solution unnecessary. So if this box would be reaonably priced, I agree it would be a very elegant alternative to what I was describing.
post #66 of 150
I guess reasonable is in the eye of the beholder smile.gif


Just for reference, I think the AP20 without Dirac Live streets for something near 5K. Another benefit is that if he ever wants to use the DACs in the unit, they are quite good. But as you note, this is a pricey solution.
post #67 of 150
Thanks again for the responses.

I am waiting to hear back from Audiopraise as I've asked them whether it's at all feasible to incorporate a modified Vanity93 board with AES digital outs into the larger chassis of the new Oppo 105 player. I could be showing the dearth of my electronic knowledge once again here, but I figured it was worth asking since it would deal with what appears to be one of the major drawbacks to this whole approach. The Oppo 105 also has an HDMI in and that would allow at least one alternative HDMI source to be used on the system. I emailed on Monday but didn't get a reply yet.

The Datasat is a good idea but a little costly for me redface.gif as a solution to the impedance mismatch of cabling.
post #68 of 150
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sierraalphahotel View Post

Thanks again for the responses.

I am waiting to hear back from Audiopraise as I've asked them whether it's at all feasible to incorporate a modified Vanity93 board with AES digital outs into the larger chassis of the new Oppo 105 player. I could be showing the dearth of my electronic knowledge once again here, but I figured it was worth asking since it would deal with what appears to be one of the major drawbacks to this whole approach. The Oppo 105 also has an HDMI in and that would allow at least one alternative HDMI source to be used on the system. I emailed on Monday but didn't get a reply yet.

The Datasat is a good idea but a little costly for me redface.gif as a solution to the impedance mismatch of cabling.

Looking forward to their response.
post #69 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by sierraalphahotel View Post

Thanks again for the responses.

I am waiting to hear back from Audiopraise as I've asked them whether it's at all feasible to incorporate a modified Vanity93 board with AES digital outs into the larger chassis of the new Oppo 105 player. I could be showing the dearth of my electronic knowledge once again here, but I figured it was worth asking since it would deal with what appears to be one of the major drawbacks to this whole approach. The Oppo 105 also has an HDMI in and that would allow at least one alternative HDMI source to be used on the system. I emailed on Monday but didn't get a reply yet.

The Datasat is a good idea but a little costly for me redface.gif as a solution to the impedance mismatch of cabling.

If we can pool a custom order for a board with AES/EBU outs for the Oppo 105 I'm game. We should be able to sign up a few more prospective users that want to run the Oppo straight into a Trinnov MC. Would love to run my satellite TV HDMI into the 105 and ditch my SSP (just used for satellite TV) completely. I'm not holding my breath though, because the current digi out board uses the layout of the existing RCA output connectors, so creating a custom AES/EBU output board would be a lot of extra work.
post #70 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

If we can pool a custom order for a board with AES/EBU outs for the Oppo 105 I'm game. We should be able to sign up a few more prospective users that want to run the Oppo straight into a Trinnov MC. Would love to run my satellite TV HDMI into the 105 and ditch my SSP (just used for satellite TV) completely. I'm not holding my breath though, because the current digi out board uses the layout of the existing RCA output connectors, so creating a custom AES/EBU output board would be a lot of extra work.

I'd go for that.

Given that most of the takers on this forum are on the lunatic fringe, maybe they could even "upgrade" the power supply for their board (Hynes regulators or similar) and/or omit any transformers on the output (given that the Trinnov itself has very high quality transformers on its input)?
post #71 of 150
Thread Starter 
What would the ideal way to implement this mod for if using a SSP and a Trinnov for watching Blu Ray movies? What would be the chain of cables and would it negate volume differences / voltage differences between the units? This is getting fringe for me!
post #72 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

What would the ideal way to implement this mod for if using a SSP and a Trinnov for watching Blu Ray movies? What would be the chain of cables and would it negate volume differences / voltage differences between the units? This is getting fringe for me!

If you have a 105 you really would not need the SSP (run your HDMI sources into the Oppo instead - for multiple sources use an HDMI swithc). If you insist on having a SSP, you would run the Oppo digital out into the Trinnov MC (you can already do this with the 93 using an S/PDIF to AES/EBU cable), and run your SSP analog into the Trinnov, doing A/D conversion. If you do all volume control with the Trinnov, you would set the output level of your SSP to 0dB. Volumes of the digital (Oppo) and analog (SSP) source will be approximately at the same level. You would do volume control and switching between Oppo and SSP input on the Trinnov using RS232 and iRule.
post #73 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucemck2 View Post

I'd go for that.

Given that most of the takers on this forum are on the lunatic fringe, maybe they could even "upgrade" the power supply for their board (Hynes regulators or similar) and/or omit any transformers on the output (given that the Trinnov itself has very high quality transformers on its input)?

Sorry, You got that backwards. Properly engineered AES interfaces use a transformer. It is the cheap shoddy gear that uses just a capacitor. In fact the pro interface has a capacitor as well in case there is any DC on the cable, it won't saturate or damage the transformer. This stuff has been thought out by professionals. It bothers me how some of these audiophile hack shops think they know better. (P.S. this is not referring to you)

The whole idea of an AES SPDIF interface is to get away from the issues of clean power rails and the need for these "audio grade" power supplies. They serve a purpose on a good analog section but have no benefits for digital systems. Clock generation circuits are analog and can be influenced by the power supply noise. But any good gear has a dedicated sub regulator for the clock PLL circuits. Putting "audio grade" regulators on an ASE/SPDIF output card is a total waste and accomplishes nothing over a commodity regulator chip. In my AES modded Pioneer I just grabbed +5 volts from the most convenient point. It think is was where the BR drive got it's power. It doesn't matter for this application.
Edited by Glimmie - 4/18/13 at 11:53am
post #74 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

I'm not holding my breath though, because the current digi out board uses the layout of the existing RCA output connectors, so creating a custom AES/EBU output board would be a lot of extra work.

Well they could use mini XLR connectors that only need a 1/2inch hole. Or just use a 15pin VGA connector and breakout cable like I did. Or any small connector they can find. The connector impedance is not critical at these frequencies for the physical distance of a connector. I even thought about using 3.5mm stereo mini jacks for balanced AES but they were too cheap IMO and prone to intermittents.
post #75 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

Well they could use mini XLR connectors that only need a 1/2inch hole. Or just use a 15pin VGA connector and breakout cable like I did. Or any small connector they can find. The connector impedance is not critical at these frequencies for the physical distance of a connector. I even thought about using 3.5mm stereo mini jacks for balanced AES but they were too cheap IMO and prone to intermittents.

If I understand correctly, there appears to be little that can be gained through fiddling with the conncector mounted on the modded Opp over just getting an RCA - XLR teminated digital cable.
post #76 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

If I understand correctly, there appears to be little that can be gained through fiddling with the conncector mounted on the modded Opp over just getting an RCA - XLR teminated digital cable.

Yes we all discussed that in another thread. For a simple player to the Trinnov a basic 6 foot adapter cable should work.
post #77 of 150
For those who have an interest in the possibility of a Vanity93 modded Oppo 105 with balanced digital outs, perhaps you wouldn't mind contacting Audiopraise to let them know? I emailed a few days ago but didn't hear anything from them yet. They have a forum and I could also start a thread there on the subject, but that would involve all the other interested parties registering to show their interest.

Sean
post #78 of 150
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

If you have a 105 you really would not need the SSP (run your HDMI sources into the Oppo instead - for multiple sources use an HDMI swithc). If you insist on having a SSP, you would run the Oppo digital out into the Trinnov MC (you can already do this with the 93 using an S/PDIF to AES/EBU cable), and run your SSP analog into the Trinnov, doing A/D conversion. If you do all volume control with the Trinnov, you would set the output level of your SSP to 0dB. Volumes of the digital (Oppo) and analog (SSP) source will be approximately at the same level. You would do volume control and switching between Oppo and SSP input on the Trinnov using RS232 and iRule.

If you could strip HDCP off the output of an SSP (HDMI OUT), is there a way (device or cabling) that would keep that digital signal intact to the digital input of a Trinnov? This is getting over my head with voltage differences, etc. If so, would there still be volume control issues? Thanks!
post #79 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

If you could strip HDCP off the output of an SSP (HDMI OUT), is there a way (device or cabling) that would keep that digital signal intact to the digital input of a Trinnov? This is getting over my head with voltage differences, etc. If so, would there still be volume control issues? Thanks!

The Trinnov does not have an HDMI input so in addition to HDCP stripping you need conversion to AES/EBU (or S/PDIF). There are obscure operations that sell HDMI to 4xS/PDIF converters at full resolution with HDCP stripping, but they keep a low profile because they are illegal.
post #80 of 150
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

The Trinnov does not have an HDMI input so in addition to HDCP stripping you need conversion to AES/EBU (or S/PDIF). There are obscure operations that sell HDMI to 4xS/PDIF converters at full resolution with HDCP stripping, but they keep a low profile because they are illegal.

Yes. I am aware. Would such a device be an ideal solution or are there other issues to worry about / voltage differences, etc?
post #81 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Yes. I am aware. Would such a device be an ideal solution or are there other issues to worry about / voltage differences, etc?

I don't think there would be any issues to worry about.
post #82 of 150
I heard back from Audiopraise. They said that the output drivers on the Vanity93 board are quite strong and are fully balanced so with proper cabling there should be no impedance mismatch. This would appear to be good news since in my message to them I had stated that the cabling would be to active speakers and not just between source components. I did not specify the actual cable lengths to them and I need to get them this info.
post #83 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by sierraalphahotel View Post

I heard back from Audiopraise. They said that the output drivers on the Vanity93 board are quite strong and are fully balanced so with proper cabling there should be no impedance mismatch. This would appear to be good news since in my message to them I had stated that the cabling would be to active speakers and not just between source components. I did not specify the actual cable lengths to them and I need to get them this info.

Not sure how much lenght you need, but these guys sell up to 30ft XLR to RCA terminated digital cables. I bought a few runs from them myself.

http://www.proaudiola.com/product-p/1-m2549-rca-xlrm-1.htm
post #84 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by sierraalphahotel View Post

I heard back from Audiopraise. They said that the output drivers on the Vanity93 board are quite strong and are fully balanced so with proper cabling there should be no impedance mismatch. This would appear to be good news since in my message to them I had stated that the cabling would be to active speakers and not just between source components. I did not specify the actual cable lengths to them and I need to get them this info.

That doesn't make sense. First an RCA connector is not usually balanced. It could be if you use the ring as the low side and isolate it from the chassis thus not have a ground.

Second, unbalanced AES is 75ohms. Balanced is 110ohms. So which is it coming out of the Vanity?

1) Balanced 110ohm using an RCA with no shield or ground.

2) Balanced 75 ohm using an RCA with no shield or ground.

3) Unbalanced 110 ohm.

4) Unbalanced 75 ohm?

5) Are there user jumpers on the Vanity to select the proper impedance?

Because at 30 feet an impedance mismatch between 75 and 110 ohms could be a problem. At 6 feet it probably doesn't matter.
post #85 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

That doesn't make sense. First an RCA connector is not usually balanced. It could be if you use the ring as the low side and isolate it from the chassis thus not have a ground.

Second, unbalanced AES is 75ohms. Balanced is 110ohms. So which is it coming out of the Vanity?

1) Balanced 110ohm using an RCA with no shield or ground.

2) Balanced 75 ohm using an RCA with no shield or ground.

3) Unbalanced 110 ohm.

4) Unbalanced 75 ohm?

5) Are there user jumpers on the Vanity to select the proper impedance?

Because at 30 feet an impedance mismatch between 75 and 110 ohms could be a problem. At 6 feet it probably doesn't matter.

I'm afraid I don't know what the Vanity93 board outputs but I will ask. The cable lengths in my hypothetical 7.1 active speaker system would max out at 15-20ft.
post #86 of 150
I am toying with the idea of consolidating my modded Oppo based MCH system to 4.0. One advantage is I could run all my channels through my 4 channel Trinnov processor (currently runnng my surrounds in pass through mode, then into external DAC). However, I currently map my LFE to mains in the Trinnov, and to free up the channel, I would need to do this at the source. It appears the Oppo cannot do this.

Someone on another forum told me all LFE channel information is completely redundant with low frequency information on the mains, so all LFE effectively does is boost the low frequencies. If this is indeed the case (please confirm / refute), could I achieve the same results as mapping LFE to mains, by simply boosting my frequencies below 80hz on the mains using the Trinnov?

For a mix withouth LFE, I would need a separate preset without this bass boost, but this can be configured easily in Trinnov. Any MCH experts here that can chime in.
post #87 of 150
Thread Starter 
As I narrow my options here, is there anyone here that could give me information on how the PHC (Professional Home Cinema) speakers and amplifiers in particular would be set up in the context of a Trinnov MC in the chain?

I see the associated PMA 4 ch amplifiers have DSPs internally that employ A/D and D/A converters to achieve filtering in each speaker. Now that is fine but doesn't the Trinnov also employ such? So, would this all be bypassed or can the internal amplification processing be bypassed as well?

Also narrowed things to Seaton and JTR speakers. Great guys on all ends.





post #88 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

As I narrow my options here, is there anyone here that could give me information on how the PHC (Professional Home Cinema) speakers and amplifiers in particular would be set up in the context of a Trinnov MC in the chain?

I see the associated PMA 4 ch amplifiers have DSPs internally that employ A/D and D/A converters to achieve filtering in each speaker. Now that is fine but doesn't the Trinnov also employ such? So, would this all be bypassed or can the internal amplification processing be bypassed as well?

Also narrowed things to Seaton and JTR speakers. Great guys on all ends.






This means the amps have an A/D converter build in as well. You need to bypass the DSP and any A/D conversion in the amp. If you run the Trinnov analog out into the amps you need to make sure this can bypass the A/D -> DSP -> D/A signal path (bypass mode). Alternatively, if possible you can feed the amp a digital signal. You still need to bypass the DSP in the amp, but you can use the DACs build into the amp.

I personally think these are the wrong amps for your application, with redundant digital circuitry and D/A converters build that you don't need.
post #89 of 150
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

This means the amps have an A/D converter build in as well. You need to bypass the DSP and any A/D conversion in the amp. If you run the Trinnov analog out into the amps you need to make sure this can bypass the A/D -> DSP -> D/A signal path (bypass mode). Alternatively, if possible you can feed the amp a digital signal. You still need to bypass the DSP in the amp, but you can use the DACs build into the amp.

I personally think these are the wrong amps for your application, with redundant digital circuitry and D/A converters build that you don't need.

I agree that all the extra features would be redundant. Curt likes these speakers Likely my QSC Studio Reference amps (which I'd bet are related) would do things fine here.

I wonder if the DSP can be fully bypassed? I'd rather use the Trinnov DACs.

Thanks for the input.
post #90 of 150
You have two choices with the PHC units:

(1) Treat the speakers just like you would any other passive speaker. In this configuration, you do not use the Trinnov to perform driver crossover duties. Instead, the Trinnov does bass management, speaker spatial mapping, and room/speaker correction. (In this configuration the PHC amps perform the crossover duties.)

(2) Or, do the above, plus, do crossover functionality in the Trinnov too. It is easy to configure any channel of the PHC amps to be straight amps with no crossovers or PEQ.

I do a mix of the above: I use the Trinnov to do midrange to tweeter crossover duties, but use the PHC amps to do woofer to midrange duties.

Theoretically there is a degradation in performance by having the PHC amps perform an incremental A/D. But, passive speakers have crossovers that also degrade theoretically pure transmission. Most people using ICE or Class D amps face an incremental A/D, as the analog signal has to get translated to a PWM signal. In practice the incremental D/A in the PHC amps isn't perceptible.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+)
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+) › Trinnov MC set up guide with SSP and JVB modded Oppo!