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Dynamics at the front: FS52, S30 or HB-1 MK2 - Page 2

post #31 of 81
1/22/13 at 6:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nmford View Post

Zieglj01, Can you recommend a better receiver for the S30 setup?

I was looking at purchasing equipment similar to what is being discussed here

Look at the Denon 891 receiver
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/DENAVR891/DENON-AVR-891-7.1-Channel-105W-A/V-1.4-3D-Ready-Receiver/1.html
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post #32 of 81
1/22/13 at 6:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by zieglj01 View Post

Look at the Denon 891 receiver
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/DENAVR891/DENON-AVR-891-7.1-Channel-105W-A/V-1.4-3D-Ready-Receiver/1.html

Thanks! Looks like an awesome deal... probably worth the $80 shipping to Canada i'd imagine?
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post #33 of 81
1/22/13 at 6:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resonate View Post

do you mean in terms of component life or in terms of the receiver being able to acommodate more demanding speakers down the road?

Other than demanding speakers

To have some gain in dynamic headroom, and have clean power with low distortion, to handle
complex areas in movies and music > with multi-channel being the main benefit.
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post #34 of 81
1/22/13 at 6:48pm
Well, nevermind.

It was a nice try!




EDIT: Canada sucks!
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post #35 of 81
1/22/13 at 6:55pm
I don't quite understand.

In their help system they say they ship to canada, yet I have this error.

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post #36 of 81
1/22/13 at 7:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nmford View Post

I don't quite understand.

In their help system they say they ship to canada, yet I have this error.

Sorry, Denon products can only be shipped to the USA >>

*Sold exclusively within the US only. No shipments allowed outside the US!
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post #37 of 81
1/22/13 at 7:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by zieglj01 View Post

Sorry, Denon products can only be shipped to the USA >>

*Sold exclusively within the US only. No shipments allowed outside the US!

Well, that's a shame.

Most electronics are overpriced here and the selection of refurbs is poor.

I can get hold of an AVR-1712 for about $350... might just have to go with that for now.
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post #38 of 81
1/22/13 at 7:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nmford View Post

Well, that's a shame.

Most electronics are overpriced here and the selection of refurbs is poor.

I can get hold of an AVR-1712 for about $350... might just have to go with that for now.

Denon makes that restriction for AC4L -
The 1712 Denon will be OK, the Cambridge is not lazy.
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post #39 of 81
1/22/13 at 7:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by zieglj01 View Post

Denon makes that restriction for AC4L -
The 1712 Denon will be OK, the Cambridge is not lazy.

Yeah, Denon are quite restrictive at times.

I used to live in the UK, and you can't even order them online there, you have to purchase them at a retail location of an authorized dealer.
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post #40 of 81
1/22/13 at 8:19pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zieglj01 View Post

To have some gain in dynamic headroom, and have clean power with low distortion, to handle
complex areas in movies and music > with multi-channel being the main benefit.

This sent me on a research rampage regarding 'headroom' and possible receiver upgrades. I enjoy having a network receiver and I like the size of my current one, thus it would be easy to upgrade from my 1713 [80w/ch] to a 1913 [90w/ch] if that might make a noticeable difference now or down the road in dynamic rendering. I do like to play it loud sometimes and but I wonder how much power headroom I'd want with either the S30s or HB-1s in this 11.5" by 12.5" space, listening from 12 feet back with an 80Hz crossover?

Multichannelwise I'd probably go for surrounds at some point. Not sure about a center. 2.1 might be enough though.
Edited by Resonate - 1/22/13 at 8:27pm
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post #41 of 81
1/22/13 at 8:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resonate View Post

I enjoy having a network receiver and I like the size of my current one, thus it would be easy to upgrade from my 1713 [80w/ch] to a 1913 [90w/ch] if that might make a noticeable difference now or down the road in dynamic rendering. I do like to play it loud sometimes and but I wonder how much power headroom I'd want with either the S30s or HB-1s in this 11.5" by 12.5" space, listening from 12 feet back with an 80Hz crossover

The receiver you have now is fine for your size room - 10 watts is not a big deal.
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post #42 of 81
1/22/13 at 9:13pm
10 watts from 80 to 90 would not even be humanly noticeable. One dB is considered the minimum threshold of what a human can hear, and, with everything else being equal, it takes a doubling of power to achieve a 3 dB increase, so you can see how negligible 10 extra watts would be here.
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post #43 of 81
1/22/13 at 9:23pm
Thread Starter 
Sweet.

Just ordered the Hsu Hybrid 2 2.1 Package (HB-1 MK2s + VTF-2 MK4) biggrin.gif

Somehow it took me till tonight to find these two awesomely informative threads:
Hsu hb1 -mk2
Almost got floored by Cambridge S30
Edited by Resonate - 1/22/13 at 9:29pm
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post #44 of 81
1/22/13 at 9:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resonate View Post

Just ordered the Hsu Hybrid 2 2.1 Package (HB-1 MK2s + VTF-2 MK4) biggrin.gif
Enjoy and have fun
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post #45 of 81
1/22/13 at 11:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resonate View Post


Somehow it took me till tonight to find these two awesomely informative threads:
Hsu hb1 -mk2
[/URL]

Lol, that praise from me is a bit effusive. I should add to that that while the Hsu's are pretty good with dynamic range, they are not in the league of seriously high sensitivity speaker for sheer slam. Don't expect a mini Klipschorn! Although I do think they have more punch than your average silk dome tweeter on a flat baffle bookshelf speaker. Also, I would recommend you experiment with toe-in for the best soundstage, some have said the HB-1 sounds better when the toe-in is crossed in front of the listening position instead of right on it. Try it a few different ways to see what you like best.
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post #46 of 81
1/24/13 at 6:47am
Thread Starter 
^Still - others' first impressions are helpful when you can't hear it yourself, and that thread hit on a lot of points I was wondering about.

UPDATE: While awaiting the Hsu's I've been researching some stuff e.g. dynamic headroom. After reading this blu-ray forum post, this avsforum post, knowing that this Hsu review used a more powerful AVR-1912, and not liking the AVR-1713's on-screen interface very much, I decided to try out an AVR-2113 as it has the same Audyssey, the same perfect footprint for my cabinet, more power and a better OSD. Plus the extra connections are nice. I haven't had a chance to listen anything loud yet, but I'd say the Audyssey calibration sounds were positively musical in comparison to those of the 1713. I suspect I'm seeing what hushdrops and some reviews* had mentioned about the FS52s: more amp = much better sound.

I couldn't find all-channel-driven power measurements for the AVR 2113 but since Denon claims power consumption is 500W, I'm guessing it would do a little better than these siblings:

For context, the AVR 1713's claimed consumption is 390w. AVR 1712's & 1912's is 460w. AVR 3313's is 670w.

* from Andrew Robinson's review:
Quote:
...despite being marketed to the AV receiver crowd, the SP-FS52s need a fair amount of juice to do their thing - I'd say at least 100 if not 120 watts per, if you've got it. The issue of power as it pertains to the SP-FS52 and its crossover is the biggest knock I have against the speaker, for without power, the speaker is just a bit too laid-back and polite. Sometime you want it rough and tough and a bit edgy, and it simply takes more than I feel many AV receivers have to give to get the SP-FS52s to want to dance.

Edited by Resonate - 3/18/13 at 6:49am
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post #47 of 81
1/24/13 at 10:11am
The power differences between these receivers will make very little difference on the loudness of the speakers. To give you some perspective, it takes a doubling of power for a mere 3 dB increase in output. 1 dB is considered the bare minimum difference in loudness that humans can perceive, so 3 dB isn't a whole lot, at least to human perception. I'm sorry to say, but the difference in maximum output between the 2113 and 1713 is likely to be less than 1 dB.
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post #48 of 81
1/24/13 at 10:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resonate View Post

I couldn't find all-channel-driven power measurements for the AVR 2113 but since Denon claims power consumption is 500W, I'm guessing it would do a little better than these siblings:

For context, the AVR 1713's claimed consumption is 390w. AVR 1712's & 1912's is 460w. AVR 3313's is 670w.

You are talking about a small room - and the HSU speakers will get loud with a modest receiver. At moderate
volume, you are not using a lot of watts to begin with. Plus, the subwoofer has its own built-in amp.
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post #49 of 81
1/24/13 at 10:44am
Thread Starter 
doublepost
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post #50 of 81
1/24/13 at 10:45am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

The power differences between these receivers will make very little difference on the loudness of the speakers. To give you some perspective, it takes a doubling of power for a mere 3 dB increase in output. 1 dB is considered the bare minimum difference in loudness that humans can perceive, so 3 dB isn't a whole lot, at least to human perception. I'm sorry to say, but the difference in maximum output between the 2113 and 1713 is likely to be less than 1 dB.

Of course. I saw that point^ made a few times in the avsforum Pioneer thread that most influenced my initial purchases. That's why I figured the AVR 1713 would do the trick. However, after running through my test songs at -30 to -25 db and listening to Pandora all morning, I'm shocked how much better the FS52s and SW-8MK2 sound with the AVR 2113 - even at -40. Warmer, richer and fuller bass to mid? Check. I even got some chills. The dynamics I seek in those 3 songs are not quite there, but they are definitely improved. I don't know that it's any louder but the quality is far better to my ear. The effect I noticed on the Audyssey sweep pulse has been applied to all sound coming out of the speakers. Is this just a function of a bigger power supply? A better power supply? Something else? Can't say. All the settings are the same, I ran Audyssey the same, and I haven't moved the speakers or anything in the room.

edit:also, the bass has really tightened up
Quote:
Originally Posted by zieglj01 View Post

You are talking about a small room - and the HSU speakers will get loud with a modest receiver.

I can't wait biggrin.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by zieglj01 View Post

At moderate volume, you are not using a lot of watts to begin with. Plus, the subwoofer has its own built-in amp.

Exactly - that's why I'm so surprised at the difference in sound.
Edited by Resonate - 1/24/13 at 2:22pm
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post #51 of 81
1/24/13 at 10:53am
There may be another factor in play. Are you listening in direct mode or are you using some sort of processing?
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post #52 of 81
1/24/13 at 10:57am
Thread Starter 
Nope just the usual: Stereo, LFE+Main, 80Hz crossover, FS52s are set to small

edit: I have Restorer set to Mode3 (default) on Pandora, just like on the 1713
Edited by Resonate - 1/24/13 at 11:11am
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post #53 of 81
1/24/13 at 4:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resonate View Post

Nope just the usual: Stereo, LFE+Main, 80Hz crossover, FS52s are set to small

edit: I have Restorer set to Mode3 (default) on Pandora, just like on the 1713

Do you really want LFE+Main if using a sub?

That means that the 52's are running full range.

Brian
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post #54 of 81
1/24/13 at 4:29pm
Thread Starter 
I thought LFE+Main was the way to run music and whatnot in 2.1? Setting the mains to 'small' transfers bass to the sub around the crossover, no? Is there a better way?
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post #55 of 81
1/24/13 at 4:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resonate View Post

I thought LFE+Main was the way to run music and whatnot in 2.1? Setting the mains to 'small' transfers bass to the sub around the crossover, no? Is there a better way?

LFE+Mains sends the bass to both the sub and main speakers. LFE only is the recommended way.
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post #56 of 81
1/24/13 at 4:39pm
Thread Starter 
Fixed - thanks! So if I was doing LFE+Main the whole time with the 1713 maybe I was overworking the amp?
Edited by Resonate - 1/24/13 at 4:55pm
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post #57 of 81
1/24/13 at 4:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resonate View Post

Fixed - thanks! So if I was doing LFE+Main the whole time with the 1713 I guess I was overworking the amp?

It will take some load off the receiver and make the sub do the work at the lower frequencies. Just set your speakers to small and the crossover to 80Hz for your mains for a good starting point. Depending on your speakers you might prefer 60Hz. or 100Hz. Just play with it and compare the sound to your preference.
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post #58 of 81
1/25/13 at 8:30am
Thread Starter 
Aha - I didn't notice any change in sound after switching to 'LFE' so I looked it up. According to batpig, 'LFE + Main' only sends bass to speakers set to large; the FS52s were set to small on both the 1713 and 2113.
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig 
Next, if you have a subwoofer, enter the BASS SETTING menu (which in older models is called SUBWOOFER SETUP). The LFE vs. LFE+MAIN setting is only relevant if you have set any speakers to "large". If all of your speakers are set to "small", this setting doesn't do anything. For speakers set to "large", think of this as the "double bass" setting. For more info on the LFE vs LFE+MAIN setting, click here to read a good explanation.

Unrelated: I found this writeup about sensitivity with a set of examples (not sure if the numbers are accurate though):
Quote:
For the sake of discussion, take 110 dB per speaker as our goal, 90 dB average loudness with 20 dB of "headroom" for the peaks. This is a commonly used number; enough for a home system, barring huge rooms, absolute head-bangers, and so on. If we could just buy speakers with 110 dB sensitivity, we'd only need a one watt amp. However those speakers don't exist, so we need more power. To be exact, for every 3 dB our chosen speaker's sensitivity is below 110 dB, we need twice the power.

110 dB -> 1 W, 107 dB -> 2 W, 104 -> 4, 101 -> 8, 98 -> 16, 95 -> 32, 92 -> 64, 89 -> 128, 86 -> 256, 83 -> 512, 80 -> 1024

For example, if speaker X has a sensitivity of 86 dB and you want 110 dB of loudness, you need about 250 watts to drive them. The first thing to check is the manufacturer's spec for power handling of those speakers; if they cannot take 250 watts (peak), you cannot use them.

FS52s are 87db, HB-1 MK2s are 92db, S30s are 90db
Edited by Resonate - 1/25/13 at 11:25am
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post #59 of 81
1/25/13 at 9:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resonate View Post

Aha - I didn't notice any change in sound after switching to 'LFE' so I looked it up. According to batpig, 'LFE + Main' only sends bass to speakers set to large; the FS52s were set to small on both the 1713 and 2113.
Unrelated: I found this writeup about sensitivity with a nice set of examples (not sure if the numbers are entirely accurate though):
FS52s are 87db, HB-1 MK2s are 92db, S30s are 90db

Ah...I believe you are right about the LFE+Mains thing. Sorry for leading you astray.

The Pios are not the most sensitive speakers in the world to be sure, but unless you had an extremely low powered amp, I consider it for the most part irrelevant and in no way indicative of sound quality.

Brian
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post #60 of 81
1/25/13 at 9:24am
LFE+Main sends bass frequencies below your crossover point to your sub. Music doesn't have an LFE channel, so it would essentially have no bass if you have your front's set to small and sub set to LFE only. The +Main portion allows bass where an LFE track isn't available.

I have the first gen Pioneer floorstanders. I think they sound quite good. Better than various Polk's I tried. Polk's were just unnaturally bright and harsh to me.
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