Dynamics at the front: FS52, S30 or HB-1 MK2 - Page 3

Did some more reading, and the List of Reference Level, High Sensitivity & SPL Speakers answered a lot of questions about terms I've been seeing in posts but not undersanding e.g. what is this 'reference level' you speak of? Also found out that the sensitivity ratings given by manufacturers aren't necessarily standardized e.g. the HB-1 Mk2 rating of 92db is a 'half space' measurement, which means that it was taken while the speaker was up against a wall instead instead of a straight up anechoic chamber. The author of that thread therefore considers its true sensitivity to be 3db lower, hence 89db. Anyhow, according to his calculations, a pair of HB-1 MK2s need 267watts total to reach 105db at a distance of 12 feet. The FS52s and s30s, with lower sensitivity (?) and lower max power ratings (130w and 100w respectively, vs HB-1 MK2's 250), do not appear to be able to reach reference level at 12ft. Not very important for music, but it might be a consideration home theaterwise.

That's that I thought initially, but the '+Main' ends up being superfluous unless you have the fronts set to large per batpig's quote.
Edited by Resonate - 2/2/13 at 6:34am

After discovering the Marantz SR5007 is essentially an AVR 2113CI with future proofing 7 channel preouts and a beefier amp - same footprint and everything - I ran out and got one from the local higher-end audio dealer (who was an awesome dude btw). I ran Audyssey the same way once again and now, finally, the FS52's dynamics _feel right(!)_. I had assumed that the Hsu's would be a clear winner once they arrive in a couple days but now I'm not so sure anymore. Dynamics aside, from my listening so far, I'd say the sound is akin to the 2113CI's but with possibly a tad more midrange presence. This is just a guess based on the Pioneer setup though. Anyhow listening, beyond -20db say, is more comfortable with the Marantz. I couldn't find a formal review of the SR5007, but this review of an SR7007 made the Marantz brand sound good. It also seems like Marantz rates their receivers' amps more conservatively than Denon, which I like. For example:

• the AVR-3313CI has a 670w power supply and claims 125w/ch
• the AVR-891 has a 600w power supply and claims 105w/ch
• the AVR-2331CI has a 500w power supply and claims 95w/ch
• the SR5007 has a 650w power supply and claims 100w/ch

Despite sharing the same case dimensions and connector layout the SR5007 appears to be a clean sheet design internally, rather than a rebadged 2113CI. I noticed this when feeling around the top of the cases during operation. The 2113CI would get warm in the back left corner and the back middle; the SR5007 gets warm in the front half. Neither got 'HOT' hot, but the Marantz does get warmer (my cabinet affords 3" of space the left, right, back, 6.5" above, and an open front). Another difference is that the interface is even faster on the SR5007 - cruising menus is slow on the AVR1713 and faster on the 2113CI but here you can basically move as quickly as you can press buttons. The same model-to-model progression in speed holds for networking.
Edited by Resonate - 2/2/13 at 4:03am

UPDATE: Three days ago I ordered the Cambridge S30s to audtion and I picked up a pair of Sanus EF-28B stands. Two days ago the Hsu's arrived. Yesterday I returned the Pioneers to Best Buy.

The first thing that struck me out of the box was the VTF-2 MK4's comically large, mini-fridge-like size. The woofer looks crazy big. The Pioneer SW-8 MK2 is a child's toy in comparison. Once I hunted down a rug of the right size to go under it, the hulking VTF-2 displaced the SW-8 next to the couch. After Audyssey I watched a movie with the VTF-2 and the Pioneers and, as expected, the bass was rich and solid. Some music listening led to some sub adjustments and I settled on: one port open with EQ1 and the minimal Q control setting. These adjustments made me notice the charming simplicity of the SW-8 MK2: it just works. You just turn crossover knob up, set volume to the middle, let Audyssey take care of it. In either of the two listening positions I had it - next to the speakers or next to the couch - that stuff plus checking the phase was all I needed to do. The VTF-2 needs to be dialed in for Audyssey and then afterward re-dialed in for ports open/closed, 'EQ1' and 'EQ2', and Q control. There are good guidelines for all this in the manual but you definitely have to read it, change something, test on your material, repeat etc. The starting settings for Audyssey were only found on Hsu's online FAQ iirc. In the end, the VTF-2, as the FS52s before them, revealed subtleties and nuances in songs that I didn't even know were there. The bass is given so much more detail and texture. For example: the drum in Radiohead's 'House of Cards', sounds like it's actually in the room. It's awesome.

The Hsu HB-1 MK2 speakers were about the size I was expecting and heavier than they look. The magnetic grilles are cool. Sitting atop the 5"x5" plates of the stands, they seem stable enough. Even a sharp kick to anywhere near the bottom of the stand just makes the whole thing slide a little on the wood floor. I toed them in so that they'd 'cross' in front of the main listening position.

Three main differences between the FS52s and the HB-1s jumped out at me. One reviewer mentioned how the source of singing seemed to come from a few feet behind the FS52s; with the HB-1s, it's more 'forward' (I think this is the term) - I'd say the singing comes from the plane of the speakers. This seems related to with the midrange levels being better balanced with the treble and bass - to my ear anyway - I'd say the sound is 'fuller'. Secondly, the treble stays smooth - even at -10dB. I haven't tested above this yet but suffice to say these can get nice and loud in my room. Third the dynamics are 'effortless' as Hsu marketing puts it. Songs that I'm used to sounding dangerous and volcanic when played loudly, DO (Prodigy's 'Spitfire' is a good example).

The S30s have got a tough act to follow.
Edited by Resonate - 2/3/13 at 3:04pm

I haven't tried approaching reference for movies yet, but for music I dunno if I'm capable of reference in this room. So far, -18db is plenty.
Edited by Resonate - 2/2/13 at 9:55am

The bass sometimes seemed sloppy with my original sub settings, so I switched to EQ2, no ports open, and Q 0.3. I then reran Audyssey with those settings. This seemed better, especially with upright-bass driven music, but there was a sort of inconsistency with any infrasonic stuff.

Today I ran and reran Audyssey with the sub Auto EQ starting settings per the Hsu FAQ (1 port open, EQ1, Q 0.7) and fiddled with the sub volume until I got 0.0 gain on the sub. I then took measurements from 5 listening positions instead of the usual three and used a mini tripod to get to ear level instead of just sitting the mic on the couch back. After Audyssey, I left one port open on the sub, switched it to EQ2 and left the Q control at 0.7. _Holy_Crap_ Night and Day. I've got improved overall clarity, punch and tightness despite it now going well into the bass-you-can-feel realm. The bass is staggeringly good at my 'loud listening' level of -20dB. The Q at 0.7 apparently allows a LOT more low extension than 0.3. It seems Q 0.3 rolls off any very low stuff in the name of preserving upper bass headroom, which appears to be completely unnecessary in this room. The sub volume knob is set low - a little over 9 o'clock - which, correct me if I'm wrong, implies a lot of headroom. Anyhow I haven't heard the sub 'run out of steam' yet even on something relentless like Nero's 'Doomsday', which now sounds perfectly cataclysmic. I was so impressed that I saved the Marantz configuration for the first time.

S30s should be here on Wednesday.
Edited by Resonate - 2/6/13 at 6:14am

S30 FTMFW!!! Here's a quick pre-sleep rundown:
After unleashing the true power of the HB-1 Mk2s the other day I thought my mind was made up. The Cambridge Audio speakers were just gonna be one last box to check off on the due diligence list. When the S30s arrived they looked too small and felt too light to compete with the stentorian Hsus. I thought maybe ziegl01 and Ster3ohead just had idiosyncratic tastes in music that these things happened to pander to. Not wanting to disrupt the existing speaker positioning, I begrudgingly sat the S30s atop the HB-1s and ran through the same 6 point Audyssey routine that I'd recently used to great effect. I quickly realized that everything ziegl01, Ster3ohead and that amazon reviewer said about the S30s was completely true. These speakers are somehow magic. Within a few minutes the S30s were placed at proper level on the stands and Audyssey was run again. Music listening continued for a couple hours until my friend arrived to see what I was on about. He was stunned by the sound quality, couldn't believe how small the speakers were or how big the sub was, and listened for almost an hour. Even my girlfriend popped in and thought the S30s sounded great.

Basically, for me, the difference is this: HB-1 MK2s are awesome when they're loud.e.g. -25dB+. They are fantastic for rocking out and soaking up the infrasonics. It doesn't seem possible that they can do what they're doing with so much dynamic strength and ease. I could crank them up and count on being BLOWN AWAY (my gf was not a fan of this btw). With the S30s though, they're awesome at any volume (I didn't go past -20db tonight). Turning it up increases detail, but the sound is always so rich, full and 'cohesive' that it's somehow deeply satisfying. And at a given volume, I would say the dynamics are slightly stronger: the HB-1s deliver the impact, but the S30s deliver the impact with more of its organic texture. Hopefully tomorrow I'll get to try them out with some movies.

jziegl01,
As I now fully trust your sonic judgement: What would you say is the best sub (or subs) no more than 15" wide and under $1000? (it could be wider if it was under 20" deep; max height is 27" though).
I am very happy with the VTF-2 MK4 but I'd possibly audition another if you thought there was something worth checking out. Thanks!
Edited by Resonate - 2/10/13 at 7:57pm

K cool.

More observations:
At my 12' listening distance, Audyssey levelled the HB-1 MK2s at -6.5dB; it levels the S30s at -3.5dB so it seems like their 90dB sensitivity rating is also a half-space measurement.

When I first fired the S30s up, and one other time last night, there was a faint little micro-click with each step of lowering or raising volume. Hasn't happened today.

From my Xbox (a low level Dolby Digital signal) I just played 'Return of the King' from the Battle of Pellenor to the end. -13dB is a good volume, but just to see what would happen I tried -10dB after the the first big battle onward. Rock solid sound. I'm sure they could go louder but I'd previously set the Marantz to limit volume to -10dB and I'll probably leave it there unless someone wants me to test beyond that. I usually watch Netflix from an HTPC so this is the first time the VTF-2 MK4 has seen LFE duty and it was flat out incredible. The dogs were quite alarmed. Fwiw: between the S30s' vividness and the nearby sub's visceral bass this seems better than I remember it being in the theater.
Edited by Resonate - 2/18/13 at 9:21am

More notes:
Twice thought I heard odd things while playing songs (vocal highs in Feist's 'Gatekeeper' and bass slams in Ratatat's 'Montanita'). Each time, I doublechecked the song with headphones plugged into the receiver, and each time it turned out to be a poorly encoded 320kbps MP3 that had seemed fine up till then. The detail from these speakers is unreal.

Watched another Dolby Digital DVD: Crimson Tide was epic at -15dB (the mix was louder than Return of the King's, so going higher was often too loud).

Followup from the next day: Watched it again, but this time without the subwoofer and S30s set to Large. The sound was great, with surprisingly good bass, but even at -21dB I noticed distortion during some high impact LFE segments (i.e. a rumbling submarine flyby, a torpedo launch). This didn't happen with the subwoofer in play, so I'm guessing the S30s should have bass backup to deal with a loud LFE channel.

Followup from the day after that: In Speaker Settings I changed 'LPF for LFE' from the default 250 to 80 (120 is the proper setting according to batpig but I didn't want the S30s trying to do any more LFE then they had to). Also changed the Sound Mode from Dolby Digital to Stereo, but I'm not sure if that really did anything. Anyhow, subsequent re-watching with no subwoofer and the S30s set to Large resulted in perfect composure at -15dB on the same two LFE segments.
Edited by Resonate - 2/27/13 at 7:39pm

Depending on the material, I noticed the VTF-2 MK4 in the corner, to the left of the sofa, was sometimes locatable. For example - on DJ Food's 'The Crow', most of the abundant bass notes would clearly seem to originate from the left, even though the song wasn't mixed that way. The locatability had to do with a feeling of more 'bass pressure' in the left ear vs the right. Also with two feet on the hardwood floor, it seemed like infrasonic vibration waves could be felt more on the closer foot, and sometimes the vibrations could seem to be lagging behind the music. It's a pretty big sub and that seemed to be about the only place it could go in that room, so I got an easier-to-place SVS SB12-NSD to audition. It's only 35lbs and with the convex front grille attached the dimensions end up being 16.2"D x 14.2"W x 14.6"H - a little bigger than the 14" cube I had in mind, but not by much. I moved the couch up a bit and centered the SB12 behind it, adjacent to three 5' 'turret' walls. I thought I'd have the woofer fire right into the couch, but between the grille's added depth and wanting to keep the sub well clear of the radiator I ended up putting it sideways - but hey: 'omnidirectional bass' and all that, right?

My impressions of the SB12-NSD so far UPDATE: see EDIT below:

• after running Audyssey and getting a subwoofer level of -1.5dB, the bass seemed a little thin. I manually upped it to 0.0dB and it sounds good. Never had to do this with the Hsu, but room placement could be a factor here, as the SB12 is generally nearer to the mic. The SB12's gain dial is set at a little over 9 o'clock. Crossover is set at 80Hz as before.
• 'The Crow' mix balance sounds spot on, thanks to the sub's position
• tightness and detail is increased slightly - tight, punchy bass is just as tight and punchy as with the S30s alone (which was tighter than with the VTF-2). I'm guessing this is the 'sealed sound' I hear about, but this could be partially related to the more isolated, outer-wall placement of this sub
• richness and fullness of bass has decreased slightly
• the kick drum(?) on Radiohead's 'House of Cards', although present and imaged in the song, does not seem big enough to 'actually be in the room' as it was with the VTF-2 MK4, which made that big drum's pressure wave palpable.
• the ambling synth-bass groove in Pharrell's 'Can I have it like that' sounds too thin until right around -20dB, and even then it's not as badass as the VTF-2 MK4 makes it sound
• 'Return of the King' and 'Crimson Tide' are done justice by the SB12, albeit with less bone crunching brutality than the VTF-2 MK4. Although the latter's performance is amazing, so far I'd say that for movies I prefer the tamer SB12; the experience is less jarring and more in line with what I'm used to from a movie theater.
• Infrasonic vibrations are present but about half the strength of the VTF-2 MK4's. In a song like Nero's 'Doomsday', this seems kind of better because the bass I feel in the floor now follows the drum beat more closely than the vicious deep-digging bass synths run amok. However, a song like MartyParty's 'Mackie' - which is a great subwoofer infrasonics demo track - becomes a good deal less impressive.

It's a closer competition than I expected and I haven't decided which I prefer yet. The Hsu seems to add richness to certain kinds of music and the stronger infrasonics are often fun. Now that I've rearranged things to get the SB12 behind the couch I bet I could swap a VTF-2 into that spot if I wanted but radiator rattle might be an issue with the Hsu. On the other hand, the SB12 delivers that clean, accurate 'sealed sound' very well, there's no rattling, and it is easier to place - I could even get another one into the room. At lower volumes, the Hsu's bass sometimes seemed too prominent, whereas the SB12 integrates so well you don't even know it's there. For those wondering about the sealed performance of the VTF-2, I should note that when I first set the Hsu in EQ2 sealed mode, the bass didn't seem as clean as in either of the 1 port open modes - again this may be related to its room placement or perhaps not feeding Audyssey enough mic positions though. Next I may try the SB12 at the VTF-2 MK4's previous position for a more direct comparison.

EDIT: did some experimenting and after turning the gain knob on the SB12 up 4 clicks it's a different animal - there are big increases in the richness, fullness and palpability departments as well as infrasonics to rival the VTF-2. It's in the same centered-behind-the-couch position and I haven't rerun Audyssey. Maybe the differences I noticed are partially to do with Audyssey downleveling the SB12 due to it being so much closer to the main listening position than the VTF-2 was? Can't say, but I'm leaning more toward the SB12 now and I'll update as I find new ways to contradict myself.
Edited by Resonate - 2/17/13 at 9:12am

Followup on the SB12: after the initial 6-point Audyssey run, manually upping the receiver level from -1.5dB to 0.0dB and then turning the gain up 4 clicks, the SB12 _kicks_ass_ and I'll be keeping it since the output is all there and it's smaller. Since messing with the gain knob, the aforementioned lacklustre song examples ('House of Cards', 'Can I have it like that', 'Mackie') all sound as good or better than with the VTF-2. The infrasonics are all there now as well, and just as strong. I initially figured that running Audyssey with a fairly consistent set of mic points would provide enough 'room correction' to allow an apples-to-apples comparison of two subs but I guess that is not the case - for a real comparison it looks like the sub needs to be located in the same place.

Another thing to note is that I was concerned about the SB12's measurement graphs with steep dropoff below 20hz - where I thought the 'feelable' infrasonics were - but it turns out I was running the VTF-2 with a similar steep dropoff - the EQ2 setting on the VTF-2 appears to be a 2nd order high pass filter that attenuates below 30Hz. The upshot is that, after fiddling with the SB12, it's just as 'house shaking' in my space as the VTF-2. And I don't think I've approached the output limits for either sub, either. In conclusion, I can't say that one is better than the other, but I can say the SB12 does the trick in this room despite being smaller.

I haven't yet tried movies with the SB12's new settings but I'm sure it'll be fine.

Next I'll be adding 3 S30's to make it 5.1.
Edited by Resonate - 2/17/13 at 1:32pm

right on^

Update:
Currently running 5.1 and so far so good!
Surround mounts: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000X9O8SI/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Center channel mount: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004GKM4DQ/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

In my room, the SB12-NSD has been just as awesome for movies as the VTF-2 MK4. Also I put a homemade 'Subdude' under the SB12 and all rattles and earthquakes in the floor have been eliminated. Moreover, the infrasonics are now super tight. I decided to try this after watching Inception, which has a pretty intense LFE track.

In conclusion, I am happy with my setup Thanks for all your guys' help. Some more notes:

1. After I changed speaker placement and reran Audyssey I noticed a shocking 114 - 97Hz null at the main listening position. It's surreal to see a sub working hard and making almost no sound! This site's smooth bass drop from 150Hz down is great for dialing in subwoofer phase adjustment, which corrected the null.

2. I greatly appreciate the clicking dial adjustments of the SB12-NSD, as it lets you make repeatable adjustments without having to look directly at the sub. E.g I knew that X number of clicks on the phase got me the strongest null correction at listening position 1. I could then remember that and find the best setting at listening position 2, with which I could work out the best compromise setting. Without the clicks it would've been pretty tricky.

3. Here are pictures of the room and general speaker positions. For reference, here's the room layout. With 8ft ceilings, it ends up being about 1950 cu/ft if you subtract the staircase's volume. However, the room is open to the kitchen via the two top entrances in the diagram, and the stairwell upstairs was not counted in that figure. The french doors are usually closed, although they certainly don't seal, and the other openings with doors are usually open. All told, adjoining spaces approximately double or triple the 1950 cu/ft figure (depending on whether or not the french doors make a difference).


4. I listened to lots of music in 2.1, 3.1. and 5.1. 2.1 is my favorite at the main listening postion, but 5.1 is great for filling the whole house with sound.

5. At some point I'll probably be interested in THX reference, but in this room I get Dolby Digital movie dialogue at a realistic level somewhere between -23dB and -18dB [#s corrected for Audyssey trim] along with solid, breathtaking sound. I am continually amazed by this setup.
Edited by Resonate - 3/19/13 at 11:49am

me too! those Kefs look freakin serious [edit: ah ok some of those 8" woofers are passive radiators; still must kick some ass...] and cheers to the SB12-NSD. Yeah those little Soundworks systems seem to spoil people. I got the 'Microworks' in like 1999 and it's still awesome:

CA and CS are different companies though - one from Britain; one from Boston (and cofounded by Henry Kloss).
Edited by Resonate - 3/18/13 at 8:12am