When I Purchased My 60" Kuro 4+ years ago...  

"This isn't a Kuro hype session."

Well, it is.

"Is anyone else feeling my pain?"

Sort of, although if memory serves that price was the closeout deal since those TVs were going away.

To be clear, no LCD fab has been built since, and since 8G fabs don't really make TVs bigger than 60" efficiently -- at least the way they do things most of the time -- you were not going to get "mega big anything" nor see prices fall anywhere near as fast as they used to.

Oh, and the world economy nearly collapsing, that was going to matter so when you sob about your TV, it really does seem pretty irrelevant of you. If I had known that would prove as bad as it has, perhaps I'd have bought a Kuro, which I completely rejected as a serious option at the time.

You claim it's not a Kuro hype session, but it is. My 2012 plasma is so far ahead of your Kuro it's not funny. It's much brighter, it's much bigger, it rejects ambient light much better and it doesn't retain images. But before we have a discussion about this, let's just agree your Kuro is better and that PDP is a dying technology and that the Kuro was the T. Rex of it and leave it at that. I'm not interested in rehashing this argument anyway, so I'm conceding every single point and simply stating that everything I wrote in this paragraph that implies my TV is good is the rantings of someone with cognitive dissonance who is jealous of the almighty Kuro.

OK, whew, leaving that aside.

As for OLED, some of us told you so.

If we tell you it might be 5 years from here before that really big OLED is $2500-3000, will you believe us? It's not coming this year or next; that much we can say with certainty. Even in 2015, it seems like the really big one won't be anywhere near that price. So it seems safe to place it in 2016 or later, 4 years out and probably 5-6.
Edited by rogo - 1/22/13 at 1:02pm

No wonder Pioneer had to leave the TV business if they were selling the 60" panels for $3100. They were about 3x that price in Europe. The HX920 is priced considerably lower than a Kuro ever cost here. (HX900 was more like Kuro prices)

Now I understand why Americans seem to think Sony TVs are overpriced - it sounds like they are priced similarly in USA to the rest of the world, when other companies such as Pioneer, Sharp, and Panasonic are selling their displays are a significant discount.

You've got greater brightness (there is no lack of brightness for my primary use, though, and that is in nighttime viewing) and ambient light deflection, I'll concede that.

No-one said anything about the price being 8 months after their introduction. It's hardly fair to compare the price of picking up a discounted set almost a year after release.

I assumed from how you were talking them up, you had a "9.5G" set, rather than a 6020, so that alone brings down the price about 30%. And the exchange rates back then were not what I thought, so you would have been looking at something around $5,000 for an LX6020 rather than a KRP600A/M. ($7,500 for a KRP)

And looking at the dates, the second generation Kuros were introduced May 2008 and Pioneer exited the TV market officially in February 2009, 9 months later. A number of retailers were informed - or were at least aware of this in advance (like being told no more were coming in) and chose to discount their stock early, before Pioneer had made an official announcement, as it was unclear whether they would continue warranty support for the displays.
The LCD business seems to have stagnated on performance for the last couple of years, or even moved backwards due to the trend towards edge LED rather than full array backlit LED sets. This is because they were premium displays, and premium anything is having trouble selling in volume now. While we're still mostly stuck with Edge LED, we're seeing a number of improvements this year with things like IGZO.

We've seen consistent improvements year-on-year from the Plasma manufacturers - it's just that Pioneer was an outlier. People seem to expect everyone to have matched them within a year and then had four years of development on top of that. Pioneer made a number of performance sacrifices to get the black levels they had, which other companies such as Panasonic have not been willing to make (such as gradation) and performance has been focused on other areas in recent years - such as motion handling - as 3D required it.
I think his point is that it was a much bigger issue on the Kuros than most Plasmas sold today. And he would be right.
The Kuros dim the image by more than 50% when going from a small window pattern to a full field, and suck down hundreds of watts when doing so. They're dim displays, even when compared to other Plasmas.

^Not really, I get a sense that IR is actually more a concern today when reading some of the threads (of course the complaints are always the loudest). Definitely no worse than the Pioneer 9G.

as a kuro owner we have to acknowledge the red push that develops as our sets age.

In the real world -- the one in which most of us live -- ambient light is a thing that exists. It happens. My TV handles it pretty darned well. I seriously have no idea what's going on in that photo, but it sure wouldn't be acceptable in my family room nor, I suspect, that of many other people with normal, mixed-use rooms.

My 17% larger TV fits in fine, however and a 60" would be unacceptably small to me.

Oh, and as for brightness (and this one is to Vinnie), I hear you on that. I watch football during the day however. It's hard to replace brightness during the day. In fact, it's the one thing I wish I could have even more brightness for.

Finally -- and I need to be clear on this -- my television does not experience any image retention. This is not some made-up story or cognitive dissonance. I have actually tried to get images to "persist" and have failed miserably. The only time the TV has retained anything was during its calibration, when it retained some menu imagery for about 10-15 minutes. Other than that, not one thing in ~6 months of us. Not a logo, not a menu, not a channel grid, not a game-console icon, not a thing.

I realize this irritating fact flies in the face of some propaganda campaign. But I have simply no image retention to speak of and have stated such many times on the forum. While I have discussed this with others and acknowledged some of them might have a significant problem, the evidence this is widespread is actually scant and no real data has been gathered about which picture modes have been used.

^I can imagine (daytime brightness requirements)! Chrono seems to be the lone wolf on the Kuro IR. It is probably not statistically significant for either brand unless one tries hard to abuse the panel.

OP

sorry it did not all work out as you planned:

you still have one of the finest displays out there and you got it at a bargain price: it will be hard to beat that act

not so bad really....

Your 6020 is not even in the top three Kuro models.

Dozens who say otherwise on IR. Maybe you should do the math. What percent is that? How does that compare?

Dozens out of how many thousands?

What we see here on AVS is called "confirmation bias", the belief that our own experiences mirror reality. We hear a small number of people report a problem and conclude, "There is a problem." This is not always wrong, of course, but it's often wrong. People without the problem have no reason to report, 'I have no problem" and the tens of thousands of posts that don't report an explicit problem are not seen as counter-factuals, they are simply ignored as no evidence of anything. Of course, they are evidence of a lack of problem, but they are not seen that way.

This situation occurred with the Sharp Elite in many ways as well and, really, many high-end products.

I can only add that I have access to a couple of local stores that stock the product and none of their Panasonic displays exhibit any image retention issues either.

And, finally, I can tell you that putting your TV out of harm's way vis a vis light is not actually a replacement for a bright image. I know many AVSers think it is, but there are as many of us (or so it seems from the projector forums) who disagree. A bright image has its own satisfaction.

I'd rather have an even brighter image than I do. That doesn't mean I need retina-searing brightness or even have much use for that. And most LCDs can produce brightness that is useless, except for daytime viewing. But there is something to that brightness that my plasma lacks and that the Kuro lacks even more.

I suppose on that dimension, I share the disappointment about the state of the art. Nothing in even the ZT60 addresses the fundamental weaknesses of plasma technology. It is -- at best -- a slightly better VT50. On the LCD side, slightly better uniformity might be in the offing, but off-axis viewing isn't apparently better at all in 2013. Color reproduction is better for stuff that use a gamut no current material is recorded under (see Triluminos). Fake local dimming is in, real local dimming is essentially gone. That means super-high intrascene contrast isn't going to be a real part of LCD.

And, besides, you can still barely buy an LCD over 60" at all. All the reasonably priced one have limited features and middle-range picture quality. The high-end sets are really overpriced for what you get.

The biggest promise of "OLED at LCD prices" remains this: The democratization of great picture quality. OLED can't survive as a high-end niche product. It simply won't work economically. That's good news because it means the price target isn't Sony's HX9xx line but rather something like Samsung's x8000 series -- and ultimately lower. If you could have picture quality that exceeds the Sharp Elite for Samsung x8000 money, pretty much all of us here who could afford it would buy it -- especially if we could get our chosen size.

Sadly, we are 4 years away -- if not more.

I guess I was just unlucky to end up with a Panasonic 65VT30 that has pretty bad IR? I accept that it is possible that the number of sets with the problem is small, but I do wonder if reports are smaller than they would otherwise be if all people were as picky as I am. Still, if there are sets with a tendency to resist IR (as rogo claims) even for watchers of network tv, or sports, or gamers with bright and static UI elements, it would sure have been nice to get one of those. Alas.

I was referring to Pioneer because that's the panel manuf. to which I thought ebernazz was referring, but I clearly misinterpreted. His was a Panasonic defense, fair enough! Ya'll continue.

The Elite and 6020 were barely any different. In fact they were only sold as a single model outside USA if I recall correctly.

The monitors went considerably brighter - same peak brightness, much less ABL. The 9.5G sets also had better black levels.
Maybe not publicly, but many retailers started discounting the sets heavily weeks before the official announcement when they were told they would not be getting any more stock in.
Panasonic has consistently doubled efficiency and contrast for at least the last couple of years, and we will shortly see if that is the case again this year. (I expect it will be) They have greatly increased the number of subfields, and now have over 30,000 steps of gradation. (At least in marketing talk)

Samsung has made similar strides, with a Plasma that is said to rival LCD brightness being released this year.

Pioneer never had to address their motion handling problems to add 3D support, or try and compete with a lot of the other features that televisions are required to have these days.
They are the only Plasma I’ve ever had permanent image retention (burn in) with, from one gameplay session at a low brightness. It faded but never left.
The Elites and XBRs are far better than the Kuros in a number of areas. The Elites do have color decoding issues though. But the Kuros also had a huge list of problems too - black level is really the only area where they excelled.
I would argue that they had a red push from day one, and it just gets worse as they age. I suspect - and I don’t have any way of verifying this - that what is actually happening is a loss of contrast, which simply exposes the issue more.

Most phosphor-based displays seem to suffer from this, as the driving voltage needs to be increased as they age, and it seems manufacturers either err on the side of caution, or their estimations are completely wrong. This was a big issue with CRTs too. (Black level rising with age)
Unless there is something black outside his window, the shot appears to have been taken at night. And black walls with massively oversized gear for the room would be unacceptable in my home as well.
Maybe check out the new Samsung models this year if you want to stick to Plasma but want more brightness. I do wonder how much real-world brightness improvements they have made though, once the ABL kicks in.
It has nothing to do with installation. The Kuros were power hungry and had a very aggressive ABL as a result. Your model in particular will dim the screen by over 50% when it is sent a bright image. And the Kuros automatically dim the screen when they detect any static images being displayed. (Channel logos etc)
Depends on your own use, but having the extra brightness required for daytime viewing is a big deal in my opinion. It mostly only applies to weekend or early-evening viewing (games rather than film for me, as I prefer to watch film in the dark) but the flexibility helps. Right now I only have to go to 4/10 on the backlight but in summer that 10/10 option is really nice.
This is the ABL, and one of the main reasons I prefer LCD - they don’t have it. (Though some have an optional one if you want it for some reason)

I actually tend to watch films in a completely dark room most of the time on my HX900, so my brightness requirements are lower than most people actually want - I typically watch at projector reference levels too, and those are half that of flat panels. But I still can’t deal with Plasmas because even at those levels, the ABL is still in effect and they dim the image further. (By more than 50% with the Kuros)

This is my biggest concern about OLED actually. They are probably going to behave like a Plasma in that regard.

So the Kuro was best ever to many. I get it and that's great. It was an awesome display, I agree. The only Pioneer I owned was long before Kuro, the 5071 and boy I was proud of that display. I had it in my bedroom when I replaced it a several years ago.

Talk about a deal I sold it to a friend of mine and the bello stand for $300. She loves it and when I visit I'm still so impressed with that display. Not seeing it everyday reminds me how great Pioneer was. Unsurpassed quality at least with this set and ahhh burn-in, really? Never and I never worried about what I watched. Just like a tv should be.

I auditioned a 6020 in my house and at the time it was really nice but the overpriced 55 Sony XBR8 just did it for me. It was my move to LCD and I have not returned.

The XBR8 was replaced by the 70 Elite. To me it's the best display I have ever owned. It really is awesome. Overpriced like the Sony? Maybe but the XBR8 makes a great bedroom display now!

So let's assume the Kuro was the best ever? By what percentage over the Elite or Panasonic plasma's today? 50 Percent? 20 percent? I say no more than 5 percent. I remember them well and as stated I can appreciate a plasma as well,

I'll take 70inch and the 5 percent less picture quality over the much smaller screen ( I dont think Kuro is better but keeping the conversation cordial) The jump to 70 has been incredible. That far outweighs any small percentage that the Kuro had in improved pic quality. Does that make the Kuro the best? Okay sure but it's too small to be considered a center piece of a high end theater these days where projection is not possible.

I'd push it to bedroom and continue to love it and go bigger! The folks that disagree in bigger perhaps don't even have surround sound and that amazes me in a forum like this.

If you tell me it's 50 percent better to you I won't be able to take you seriously.

The Pioneer was something in its day. There are just better options now IMO.

Rick
Edited by Mr.SoftDome - 1/22/13 at 7:56pm

I don't like the off-axis tradeoffs on the Sharp, soz. If I was the only one watching and in dead center and had the coin, mebbe. Funny, Kuro was my turn away from LCD and not looking back.

And yet most people buying high-end, expensive displays don't watch them anywhere other than the couch directly in front of the TV. I don't know why people would spend so much on a display they aren't even going to be sitting in front of.