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When I Purchased My 60" Kuro 4+ years ago... - Page 2  

post #31 of 68
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

The Elite and 6020 were barely any different. In fact they were only sold as a single model outside USA if I recall correctly.

---Yep. So? You're reinforcing my point. Thanks.

The monitors went considerably brighter - same peak brightness, much less ABL. The 9.5G sets also had better black levels.
Maybe not publicly, but many retailers started discounting the sets heavily weeks before the official announcement when they were told they would not be getting any more stock in.
Panasonic has consistently doubled efficiency and contrast for at least the last couple of years, and we will shortly see if that is the case again this year. (I expect it will be) They have greatly increased the number of subfields, and now have over 30,000 steps of gradation. (At least in marketing talk)

---Yeah? I bought mine 5 months- that's 20+ WEEKS- before the announcement of their departure from the business. 60" 20's were "streeting" for ~$3600 and Elites ~$4400 6 months (that's MONTHS) before even whispers of the move. Check the threads. Get the facts and stop specualting on what you THINK happened. The fact is- again- that you had a set very comparable to today's performers selling for about the same (or less) FIVE YEARS AGO.

Thanks for the marketing talk. Reality: the biggest steps panasonic has made are in- wait for it- black levels. Many of the IDENTICAL issues that existed with thei panels (and PDP in general) remain.

Samsung has made similar strides, with a Plasma that is said to rival LCD brightness being released this year.

---Sure. Ok.

Pioneer never had to address their motion handling problems to add 3D support, or try and compete with a lot of the other features that televisions are required to have these days.
They are the only Plasma I’ve ever had permanent image retention (burn in) with, from one gameplay session at a low brightness. It faded but never left.
The Elites and XBRs are far better than the Kuros in a number of areas. The Elites do have color decoding issues though. But the Kuros also had a huge list of problems too - black level is really the only area where they excelled.
I would argue that they had a red push from day one, and it just gets worse as they age. I suspect - and I don’t have any way of verifying this - that what is actually happening is a loss of contrast, which simply exposes the issue more.

---Black level is the only area where Kuros "excelled". LMAO. Read the professional and consumer reviews...they are ALL OVER THE INTERNET. Comprehend what they nearly universally think about: black levels. contrast. color fidelity. motion handling. gradation. shadow detail. off axis viewing. You know, the HALLMARKS of image quality. No, it was not perfect, no display created by man ever has been or will be...but again that's neither the point here or this THREAD.

Most phosphor-based displays seem to suffer from this, as the driving voltage needs to be increased as they age, and it seems manufacturers either err on the side of caution, or their estimations are completely wrong. This was a big issue with CRTs too. (Black level rising with age)
Unless there is something black outside his window, the shot appears to have been taken at night. And black walls with massively oversized gear for the room would be unacceptable in my home as well.
Maybe check out the new Samsung models this year if you want to stick to Plasma but want more brightness. I do wonder how much real-world brightness improvements they have made though, once the ABL kicks in.
It has nothing to do with installation. The Kuros were power hungry and had a very aggressive ABL as a result. Your model in particular will dim the screen by over 50% when it is sent a bright image. And the Kuros automatically dim the screen when they detect any static images being displayed. (Channel logos etc)
Depends on your own use, but having the extra brightness required for daytime viewing is a big deal in my opinion. It mostly only applies to weekend or early-evening viewing (games rather than film for me, as I prefer to watch film in the dark) but the flexibility helps. Right now I only have to go to 4/10 on the backlight but in summer that 10/10 option is really nice.
This is the ABL, and one of the main reasons I prefer LCD - they don’t have it. (Though some have an optional one if you want it for some reason)

---Simply wasting keystrokes to drive the thread further off topic. Please stop.

I actually tend to watch films in a completely dark room most of the time on my HX900, so my brightness requirements are lower than most people actually want - I typically watch at projector reference levels too, and those are half that of flat panels. But I still can’t deal with Plasmas because even at those levels, the ABL is still in effect and they dim the image further. (By more than 50% with the Kuros)

This is my biggest concern about OLED actually. They are probably going to behave like a Plasma in that regard.

---More off topic muck that no one clicking on this thread likely cares to read.

You have done nothing to even remotely contradict my assertion that upper-level panel performance has advanced little over the last half decade while prices (and performance)- especially so on the top tier panels- have been relatively stagnate (or in the case of high end displays, actually increased).

All while no larger panels of any premium quality have been introduced at prices affordable by more than the top 2%.

But we do have 3D and super-bright LCD's that you can almost tolerate off center.

Go figure. rolleyes.gif

The funny thing about a certain FEW in these parts: if I started a thread proclaiming that the flat panel industry had made even modest gains in performance, price, and size in the last 5 years, the same few would argue that they haven't. You can bet on it.

Why? Because they really just like to argue and advertise how much they proclaim to know.

Again, go figure.

James
Edited by mastermaybe - 1/23/13 at 6:19am
post #32 of 68
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.SoftDome View Post

So the Kuro was best ever to many. I get it and that's great. It was an awesome display, I agree. The only Pioneer I owned was long before Kuro, the 5071 and boy I was proud of that display. I had it in my bedroom when I replaced it a several years ago.

Talk about a deal I sold it to a friend of mine and the bello stand for $300. She loves it and when I visit I'm still so impressed with that display. Not seeing it everyday reminds me how great Pioneer was. Unsurpassed quality at least with this set and ahhh burn-in, really? Never and I never worried about what I watched. Just like a tv should be. wink.gif

I auditioned a 6020 in my house and at the time it was really nice but the overpriced 55 Sony XBR8 just did it for me. It was my move to LCD and I have not returned.

The XBR8 was replaced by the 70 Elite. To me it's the best display I have ever owned. It really is awesome. Overpriced like the Sony? Maybe but the XBR8 makes a great bedroom display now!

So let's assume the Kuro was the best ever? By what percentage over the Elite or Panasonic plasma's today? 50 Percent? 20 percent? I say no more than 5 percent. I remember them well and as stated I can appreciate a plasma as well,

I'll take 70inch and the 5 percent less picture quality over the much smaller screen ( I dont think Kuro is better but keeping the conversation cordial) The jump to 70 has been incredible. That far outweighs any small percentage that the Kuro had in improved pic quality. Does that make the Kuro the best? Okay sure but it's too small to be considered a center piece of a high end theater these days where projection is not possible.

I'd push it to bedroom and continue to love it and go bigger! The folks that disagree in bigger perhaps don't even have surround sound and that amazes me in a forum like this.

If you tell me it's 50 percent better to you I won't be able to take you seriously.

The Pioneer was something in its day. There are just better options now IMO.

Rick

You don't need to consider the Kuro the "best" because that has little to do with this thread. It's about an INDUSTRY.

70" panels? Ok, What are your options? A $55-6500 Elite? Or a $2500-$3500 Sharp that no one who cares about image quality really cares about (again, sorry Sharp owners, I nearly bought one myself) ?

So, an outrageously priced 70" display and a still relatively expensive $25-3500 unit that offers sub par performance.

Yeah, what progression from 2008.

James
Edited by mastermaybe - 1/23/13 at 6:17am
post #33 of 68
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

And yet most people buying high-end, expensive displays don't watch them anywhere other than the couch directly in front of the TV. I don't know why people would spend so much on a display they aren't even going to be sitting in front of.

Completely baseless and false. You don't know why someone would buy a large, fantastic, display so EVERYONE in the room could enjoy it? Ouch.

To the contrary, MOST people who can afford and purchase these large, expensive displays also own LARGER homes, with LARGER living spaces and tend to have seating all about the room.

But so long as we continue to spiral off topic we can say whatever we like I guess.

James
post #34 of 68
Thread Starter 
Oh, and here's another expert (Tom Norton) who's tested and calibrated hundreds of displays talking about the "non-existent" IR of the VT-50:

"The Panasonic plasmas I’ve tested, including this one, have been moderately prone to temporary image retention. This most commonly appears as a dim ghost, visible when a full black screen immediately follows a prolonged, bright image. The TC-P65VT50 offers several selectable anti-image-retention features, including a Pixel orbiter."

http://www.hometheater.com/content/panasonic-tc-p65vt50-3d-plasma-hdtv

Another guy who just has bad luck I suppose.

James
post #35 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Oh, and here's another expert (Tom Norton) who's tested and calibrated hundreds of displays talking about the "non-existent" IR of the VT-50:

"The Panasonic plasmas I’ve tested, including this one, have been moderately prone to temporary image retention. This most commonly appears as a dim ghost, visible when a full black screen immediately follows a prolonged, bright image. The TC-P65VT50 offers several selectable anti-image-retention features, including a Pixel orbiter."

http://www.hometheater.com/content/panasonic-tc-p65vt50-3d-plasma-hdtv

Another guy who just has bad luck I suppose.

James


If it was so much "bad luck" for him, why did he state;

"If I were purchasing a 55- or 65-inch HDTV today, the Panasonic VT50 line would be at or near the top of both my performance and value shopping lists."?!
post #36 of 68
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

If it was so much "bad luck" for him, why did he state;

"If I were purchasing a 55- or 65-inch HDTV today, the Panasonic VT50 line would be at or near the top of both my performance and value shopping lists."?!

Sir:

The totality of the display quality is irrelevant. I'm not speaking to the overall quality of the display which is at or near the very best of what's available today.

I'm speaking to the reality of its IR- which someone on this thread contented earlier does not exist on his display/the majority/most/some/whatever- that is apparent to a good number on this site, as well as with reviewers.

The "bad luck" allusion was referring to he, myself, and others who must just be getting panels that are more prone to it for one reason or another. wink.gifrolleyes.gif

James
Edited by mastermaybe - 1/23/13 at 6:59am
post #37 of 68
You are making a mountain out of a molehill. Plasma owners are well aware of TIR, and so are the manufacturers, since they provide features to either prevent or alleviate it. I am starting to get the impression that you might have purchased a Kuro over four years ago.rolleyes.gif
post #38 of 68
Thread Starter 
^ I'm not making a mountain out of anything. It happens to irritate me perhaps more than others/most is all. But, crucially, since I'm the one watching the display 300+ days a year, I'm the only one who counts.

I found it odd that someone remarked earlier that they had burn-in/IR on three different kuros. I said nothing, even though I have never seen it on a 9G panel or even read about it from anyone else. But that's not to say it doesn't exist. If my panel had it, I'm all but certain I could not live with it. There's no bias. This though again, is OT.

I for one am very interested in seeing how Sharps larger panels perform this year. If they can introduce 70 and 80" panels that can land between their existing units and say a Panny VT50 for $3500, I'll be in.

James
Edited by mastermaybe - 1/23/13 at 7:20am
post #39 of 68
Now you are citing some anecdotal claim from one person, which you say you have never personally observed. That is making a mountain out of a rumored molehill. Anecdotal accounts are notoriously unreliable, and even more so when posted by some unknown person on the web! Of course there are always some people who tend to not take proper care of their stuff and follow instructions. We all know someone who could not be trusted not to break a friggin' anvil.biggrin.gif
post #40 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Oh, and here's another expert (Tom Norton) who's tested and calibrated hundreds of displays talking about the "non-existent" IR of the VT-50:

"The Panasonic plasmas I’ve tested, including this one, have been moderately prone to temporary image retention. This most commonly appears as a dim ghost, visible when a full black screen immediately follows a prolonged, bright image..."
What's being described here isn't even image retention in the typical sense of say a channel logo or in-game HUD remaining visible over other content. Read this thread for an old but still relevant discussion.

jeff
post #41 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

And yet most people buying high-end, expensive displays don't watch them anywhere other than the couch directly in front of the TV. I don't know why people would spend so much on a display they aren't even going to be sitting in front of.
Because the configuration isn't ideal. It's called being considerate for your family/guests.
post #42 of 68
Thread Starter 
^ Excuse me, but wth are you talking about? Citing what anecdotal claim? The one in this thread? Or the other "anecdotal" accounts that say otherwise? You realize it's a two way street, right?

"take proper care, follow instructions"?

Most of these people are simply watching television. Pretty straightforward.

Enough of the IR. I've seen it with my own eyes on two different VT50's. You're not going to change my mind or anyone else's.

Moving along now...


James
post #43 of 68
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenjp View Post

What's being described here isn't even image retention in the typical sense of say a channel logo or in-game HUD remaining visible over other content. Read this thread for an old but still relevant discussion.

jeff


Ummmm, YES it is. It's an image that- although no longer being transmitted to the display- remains visible from one degree to another. Your "typical sense" definition is precisely what I've witnessed, anyway: channel logos remaining visible 10-30 seconds after the channel/image has changed.

Stares in disbelief.

James
Edited by mastermaybe - 1/23/13 at 7:58am
post #44 of 68
"Stares in disbelief". You are a snarky clever one aren't you?

Did you bother reading the linked thread?

I wasn't talking about what you have or haven't witnessed. I was talking about a quote you referenced in support of your opinion. Back to reading comprehension class for you. Oooh the snark goes both ways rolleyes.gif

And yes, seeing a dim ghost image on a blank screen (what the subject quote was talking about) is a different phenomenon from what I described as the typical definition. In particular because it immediately disappears upon the presence of new content on screen, as opposed to those logos and HUDs that can remain visible. Ergo, citing the former in support of your position on the latter isn't a strong argument.
post #45 of 68
Thread Starter 
there's a reading comprehension class?

I remember that class...it was just between recess and lunch.

If I did not read it, the level of comprehension is irrelevant. Try harder.

Again. Your "typical definition" is arbitrary.

"different phenomenon" Oh, is that how the game is played?

What about any image that is remotely visible after it leaves the screen? Can we simply create a chart that explains the severity/duration of these "phenomena"?

That'd be cool. A nice little chart to eliminate the confusion as to what "real" IR is. Beautiful.

Maybe not.

Ergo, my cite was and is fine: someone else seeing an image to one degree or another after it is no longer being transmitted.



James
post #46 of 68
Thread Starter 
Great 15 post discussion though...basically: this is not really IR, but something much cooler hanging around after the image is gone that is perfectly normal. Go figure.

James
post #47 of 68
Above fireplace height, dwarfed by a sound system, and on axis seating position >16ft from a 60" non-elite!? Thats a small FOV! eek.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

post #48 of 68
Thread Starter 
I no longer wish to continue OT with IR talk...it's become needlessly combative and really, pointless. I apologize for being so aggressive and juvenile.

James
post #49 of 68
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rgb32 View Post

Above fireplace height, dwarfed by a sound system, and on axis seating position >16ft from a 60" non-elite!? Thats a small FOV! eek.gif

It's really only about 10" higher than it would be on its stand (~32" off the floor)- seems to work out nicely according to guests. And it's 10-12 feet away- or closer for a couple. I suppose it's not great picture and sound but the best I can do for now.

thanks for posting.

James
post #50 of 68
Actually xrox's post in that thread does provide what I'd call your chart of severity/duration, albeit in text form. Might be hard for those who skipped reading comprehension class though biggrin.gif

You don't seem to grasp (or maybe you do but are deliberatly obfuscating in order to strengthen your position) that these black screen ghost images, my "arbitrary" typical IR, and burn in are all similar but ultimately different manifestations of different root causes. So while they have similar appearances, the severity, duration, and cause are all different. IMO these differences are worth noting. The severity and duration of just about anything undesireable are what guide our judgements about how much we can tolerate them.
jeff
post #51 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

^ Excuse me, but wth are you talking about? Citing what anecdotal claim? The one in this thread? Or the other "anecdotal" accounts that say otherwise? You realize it's a two way street, right?

"take proper care, follow instructions"?

Most of these people are simply watching television. Pretty straightforward.

Enough of the IR. I've seen it with my own eyes on two different VT50's. You're not going to change my mind or anyone else's.

Moving along now...


James


So now you speak for everyone else, and what their viewpoints are, and that they are never going to change them?!rolleyes.gif
post #52 of 68
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenjp View Post

Actually xrox's post in that thread does provide what I'd call your chart of severity/duration, albeit in text form. Might be hard for those who skipped reading comprehension class though biggrin.gif

You don't seem to grasp (or maybe you do but are deliberatly obfuscating in order to strengthen your position) that these black screen ghost images, my "arbitrary" typical IR, and burn in are all similar but ultimately different manifestations of different root causes. So while they have similar appearances, the severity, duration, and cause are all different. IMO these differences are worth noting. The severity and duration of just about anything undesireable are what guide our judgements about how much we can tolerate them.
jeff

Nope, I concur. I do not enjoy images sticking around in any regard, from any cause, after they are no longer being transmitted and new material is. I do not dispute varying things cause varying results. Again, when I flip channel to channel and see residual images from the channel(s) before, I am not visually pleased. I have witnessed "this" phenomena on two different VT50's and was disappointed. I really have nothing left to offer on the dialogue. I promise. The end.

James
post #53 of 68
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

So now you speak for everyone else, and what their viewpoints are, and that they are never going to change them?!rolleyes.gif


that's not what the quote is stating or implying- the "anyone else's" is an obvious allusion/referral to those who believe it exists. Can we we please move on?

thanks,
James
Edited by mastermaybe - 1/23/13 at 8:53am
post #54 of 68
indeed we should move on
post #55 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

upper-level panel performance has advanced little over the last half decade

OLED has surely taken a lot of R&D from plasma/lcd over the last few years. To what degree has it's anticipation also promoted a holding pattern in the industry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

if I started a thread proclaiming that the flat panel industry had made even modest gains in performance, price, and size in the last 5 years, the same few would argue that they haven't. You can bet on it.

Probably but you wrapped yor message around what some might consider an ego proxy. Stadard procedure here, just don't make it obvious i say.
post #56 of 68
Thread Starter 
^ Honestly, I immediately regretted even mentioning that I owned a Kuro due to the fantastic bias that seems to exist towards it and its owners for whatever reasons one cares to cite.

Personally, there's not an ego involved in anyway whatsoever. It's a television. I'm a man of modest means who had the chance to buy a nice (relatively) big tv at a solid price. I now would like one that's slightly larger with comparable (lesser to a degree is fine) quality at or near $3000. I didn't think it would be an issue in 2008- that is: waiting it out for 5-6 years for ALL of the techs to mature/evolve and larger (read: 70-80") screen sizes becoming a bit more prevalent. Obviously I was bit more optimistic than I should have been.

I can live with it- really don't have a choice, lol. Like I said earlier, it sucks just a bit. We'll see what Sharp is offering up for image quality this go around and perhaps I'll be pleasantly surprised...fingers crossed.

James
post #57 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

^ Honestly, I immediately regretted even mentioning that I owned a Kuro due to the fantastic bias that seems to exist towards it and its owners for whatever reasons one cares to cite.
Or maybe people are sick of it being put up on a pedestal for being the best display ever when it's lacking in a number of areas, and really only did well with black level. Especially when people seem to think current displays are overpriced when they picked one up at a heavy discount, and the world is in a completely different place financially today.

If you don't want the Kuro being discussed relative to other displays, maybe don't frame your entire argument around that.
post #58 of 68
Thread Starter 
Really my other "fear" seems to be playing a part here: years ago when I was looking for a LARGER screen I was surprised at the lack of 70/80" panels. I was basically told by folks who knew more about the industry than I do that it (the public/industry) needed time (estimates varied from a couple years to ten) to "evolve", "accept", etc larger displays. Sounded reasonable to me, but I had my doubts that there would be a genuine market for these mammoths anytime soon if it didn't already exist well in to the 720/1080 HD game.

Well, here we are and but one manufacturer is offering a display larger than what was available 5 years ago. Almost certainly 4k will push screen sizes up, but the goal is to attain an affordable 1080 version until the former becomes equitable for me.

I can live with underestimating the arrival of HQ LARGE screens. As rogo said, maybe 4 years, maybe sooner, maybe later. There's always PJ's. smile.gif

James
post #59 of 68
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Or maybe people are sick of it being put up on a pedestal for being the best display ever when it's lacking in a number of areas, and really only did well with black level. Especially when people seem to think current displays are overpriced when they picked one up at a heavy discount, and the world is in a completely different place financially today.

If you don't want the Kuro being discussed relative to other displays, maybe don't frame your entire argument around that.

Again, the vast majority do not agree with you re the Kuro being a one trick pony, but I won't pursue it anymore.

Much more imperatively, it (my "argument") wasn't framed all around the kuro, but around the industry., 2008/2013. Again, take any cem, model level, or screen size you wish. Look at the msrps and street prices. It's all there. In my case, my discount was about $400 off typical street. Compare it at $3500 at what $3500 buys today. Compare what $2,000 buys today vs 2008. The best ballpark of course is the $500-$1500. The tech- per usual- has filtered down to these panels and they now offer fantastic value, especially so when contrasted with 2008 panels. That's cool and good for a larger number of folks, no doubt. But that's irrelevant to this thread/discussion, crucially.

James
post #60 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Or maybe people are sick of it being put up on a pedestal for being the best display ever when it's lacking in a number of areas, and really only did well with black level. Especially when people seem to think current displays are overpriced when they picked one up at a heavy discount, and the world is in a completely different place financially today.

If you don't want the Kuro being discussed relative to other displays, maybe don't frame your entire argument around that.
Yea, the biggest drawbacks of the Kuro can be vanquished by watching in low light (barring DSE and dithering, which is apparent to a minority). That doesn't apply to LCD.
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