Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist 
The Elite and 6020 were barely any different. In fact they were only sold as a single model outside USA if I recall correctly.
---Yep. So? You're reinforcing my point. Thanks.
The monitors went considerably brighter - same peak brightness, much less ABL. The 9.5G sets also had better black levels.
Maybe not publicly, but many retailers started discounting the sets heavily weeks before the official announcement when they were told they would not be getting any more stock in.
Panasonic has consistently doubled efficiency and contrast for at least the last couple of years, and we will shortly see if that is the case again this year. (I expect it will be) They have greatly increased the number of subfields, and now have over 30,000 steps of gradation. (At least in marketing talk)
---Yeah? I bought mine 5 months- that's 20+ WEEKS- before the announcement of their departure from the business. 60" 20's were "streeting" for ~$3600 and Elites ~$4400 6 months (that's MONTHS) before even whispers of the move. Check the threads. Get the facts and stop specualting on what you THINK happened. The fact is- again- that you had a set very comparable to today's performers selling for about the same (or less) FIVE YEARS AGO.
Thanks for the marketing talk. Reality: the biggest steps panasonic has made are in- wait for it- black levels. Many of the IDENTICAL issues that existed with thei panels (and PDP in general) remain.
Samsung has made similar strides, with a Plasma that is said to rival LCD brightness being released this year.
---Sure. Ok.
Pioneer never had to address their motion handling problems to add 3D support, or try and compete with a lot of the other features that televisions are required to have these days.
They are the only Plasma I’ve ever had permanent image retention (burn in) with, from one gameplay session at a low brightness. It faded but never left.
The Elites and XBRs are far better than the Kuros in a number of areas. The Elites do have color decoding issues though. But the Kuros also had a huge list of problems too - black level is really the only area where they excelled.
I would argue that they had a red push from day one, and it just gets worse as they age. I suspect - and I don’t have any way of verifying this - that what is actually happening is a loss of contrast, which simply exposes the issue more.
---Black level is the only area where Kuros "excelled". LMAO. Read the professional and consumer reviews...they are ALL OVER THE INTERNET. Comprehend what they nearly universally think about: black levels. contrast. color fidelity. motion handling. gradation. shadow detail. off axis viewing. You know, the HALLMARKS of image quality. No, it was not perfect, no display created by man ever has been or will be...but again that's neither the point here or this THREAD.
Most phosphor-based displays seem to suffer from this, as the driving voltage needs to be increased as they age, and it seems manufacturers either err on the side of caution, or their estimations are completely wrong. This was a big issue with CRTs too. (Black level rising with age)
Unless there is something black outside his window, the shot appears to have been taken at night. And black walls with massively oversized gear for the room would be unacceptable in my home as well.
Maybe check out the new Samsung models this year if you want to stick to Plasma but want more brightness. I do wonder how much real-world brightness improvements they have made though, once the ABL kicks in.
It has nothing to do with installation. The Kuros were power hungry and had a very aggressive ABL as a result. Your model in particular will dim the screen by over 50% when it is sent a bright image. And the Kuros automatically dim the screen when they detect any static images being displayed. (Channel logos etc)
Depends on your own use, but having the extra brightness required for daytime viewing is a big deal in my opinion. It mostly only applies to weekend or early-evening viewing (games rather than film for me, as I prefer to watch film in the dark) but the flexibility helps. Right now I only have to go to 4/10 on the backlight but in summer that 10/10 option is really nice.
This is the ABL, and one of the main reasons I prefer LCD - they don’t have it. (Though some have an optional one if you want it for some reason)
---Simply wasting keystrokes to drive the thread further off topic. Please stop.
I actually tend to watch films in a completely dark room most of the time on my HX900, so my brightness requirements are lower than most people actually want - I typically watch at projector reference levels too, and those are half that of flat panels. But I still can’t deal with Plasmas because even at those levels, the ABL is still in effect and they dim the image further. (By more than 50% with the Kuros)
This is my biggest concern about OLED actually. They are probably going to behave like a Plasma in that regard.
The Elite and 6020 were barely any different. In fact they were only sold as a single model outside USA if I recall correctly.
---Yep. So? You're reinforcing my point. Thanks.
The monitors went considerably brighter - same peak brightness, much less ABL. The 9.5G sets also had better black levels.
Maybe not publicly, but many retailers started discounting the sets heavily weeks before the official announcement when they were told they would not be getting any more stock in.
Panasonic has consistently doubled efficiency and contrast for at least the last couple of years, and we will shortly see if that is the case again this year. (I expect it will be) They have greatly increased the number of subfields, and now have over 30,000 steps of gradation. (At least in marketing talk)
---Yeah? I bought mine 5 months- that's 20+ WEEKS- before the announcement of their departure from the business. 60" 20's were "streeting" for ~$3600 and Elites ~$4400 6 months (that's MONTHS) before even whispers of the move. Check the threads. Get the facts and stop specualting on what you THINK happened. The fact is- again- that you had a set very comparable to today's performers selling for about the same (or less) FIVE YEARS AGO.
Thanks for the marketing talk. Reality: the biggest steps panasonic has made are in- wait for it- black levels. Many of the IDENTICAL issues that existed with thei panels (and PDP in general) remain.
Samsung has made similar strides, with a Plasma that is said to rival LCD brightness being released this year.
---Sure. Ok.
Pioneer never had to address their motion handling problems to add 3D support, or try and compete with a lot of the other features that televisions are required to have these days.
They are the only Plasma I’ve ever had permanent image retention (burn in) with, from one gameplay session at a low brightness. It faded but never left.
The Elites and XBRs are far better than the Kuros in a number of areas. The Elites do have color decoding issues though. But the Kuros also had a huge list of problems too - black level is really the only area where they excelled.
I would argue that they had a red push from day one, and it just gets worse as they age. I suspect - and I don’t have any way of verifying this - that what is actually happening is a loss of contrast, which simply exposes the issue more.
---Black level is the only area where Kuros "excelled". LMAO. Read the professional and consumer reviews...they are ALL OVER THE INTERNET. Comprehend what they nearly universally think about: black levels. contrast. color fidelity. motion handling. gradation. shadow detail. off axis viewing. You know, the HALLMARKS of image quality. No, it was not perfect, no display created by man ever has been or will be...but again that's neither the point here or this THREAD.
Most phosphor-based displays seem to suffer from this, as the driving voltage needs to be increased as they age, and it seems manufacturers either err on the side of caution, or their estimations are completely wrong. This was a big issue with CRTs too. (Black level rising with age)
Unless there is something black outside his window, the shot appears to have been taken at night. And black walls with massively oversized gear for the room would be unacceptable in my home as well.
Maybe check out the new Samsung models this year if you want to stick to Plasma but want more brightness. I do wonder how much real-world brightness improvements they have made though, once the ABL kicks in.
It has nothing to do with installation. The Kuros were power hungry and had a very aggressive ABL as a result. Your model in particular will dim the screen by over 50% when it is sent a bright image. And the Kuros automatically dim the screen when they detect any static images being displayed. (Channel logos etc)
Depends on your own use, but having the extra brightness required for daytime viewing is a big deal in my opinion. It mostly only applies to weekend or early-evening viewing (games rather than film for me, as I prefer to watch film in the dark) but the flexibility helps. Right now I only have to go to 4/10 on the backlight but in summer that 10/10 option is really nice.
This is the ABL, and one of the main reasons I prefer LCD - they don’t have it. (Though some have an optional one if you want it for some reason)
---Simply wasting keystrokes to drive the thread further off topic. Please stop.
I actually tend to watch films in a completely dark room most of the time on my HX900, so my brightness requirements are lower than most people actually want - I typically watch at projector reference levels too, and those are half that of flat panels. But I still can’t deal with Plasmas because even at those levels, the ABL is still in effect and they dim the image further. (By more than 50% with the Kuros)
This is my biggest concern about OLED actually. They are probably going to behave like a Plasma in that regard.
---More off topic muck that no one clicking on this thread likely cares to read.
You have done nothing to even remotely contradict my assertion that upper-level panel performance has advanced little over the last half decade while prices (and performance)- especially so on the top tier panels- have been relatively stagnate (or in the case of high end displays, actually increased).
All while no larger panels of any premium quality have been introduced at prices affordable by more than the top 2%.
But we do have 3D and super-bright LCD's that you can almost tolerate off center.
Go figure.
The funny thing about a certain FEW in these parts: if I started a thread proclaiming that the flat panel industry had made even modest gains in performance, price, and size in the last 5 years, the same few would argue that they haven't. You can bet on it.
Why? Because they really just like to argue and advertise how much they proclaim to know.
Again, go figure.
James
Edited by mastermaybe - 1/23/13 at 6:19am
