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First Home Theater Surround 5.1 system - critiques?

post #1 of 31
Thread Starter 
I am starting from scratch in a basement room, new studs in an otherwise never finished cement wall basement, 8' ceilings, spray foam wall, fiberglass ceiling joists, etc. Not going to concern myself with the very best in sound proofing, because this project is on a deadline and it just isn't that critical to our needs.

To the point...

We have picked out the following equipment and I will state my questions if any on each item. What I would like to know is your opinions on cost vs. quality of this setup, and if you would go another route, please indicate what route and why.

Receiver: Denon AVR-1913 7.1 Channel 3D Pass Through and Networking Home Theater Receiver with AirPlay and Powered Zone-2 Capability (I like this because I can feed FM radio to my adjoining workshop room. It is somewhat vague in the description, but I believe this receiver has a built in FM tuner correct? Also, please inform the ignorant here, will I need a separate Amplifier to adequately power the speakers listed below?

Front main L&R Speakers: Infinity Primus P363 Three-way dual 6-1/2-Inch Floorstanding Speaker

Center Speaker: Infinity Primus PC351 Three-way dual 5-1/4-Inch Speaker

Subwoofer: Infinity Primus PS410 10-Inch 300-Watt Powered Subwoofer

Rear L&R Speakers: Infinity Primus P163BK Two-way 6 1/2-Inch Bookshelf/Satellite Speaker (I am not in love with having external speakers for the rear's, so if there is a comparable in-wall recessed speaker please let me know. I also need two satellite speakers for the workshop room on the other side of the wall, but have no idea what to buy for decent radio or CD listening.

My big question is will this receiver handle these speakers alone, or do I need an amplifier to be safe?

Next, I don't need top of the line sound quality, but I don't want to be saddled with junk either. Have I landed in a nice middle of the road area for quality and cost?

I intend to use the Zone 2 for the adjoining room, but am not dead set on this Denon if you think there is a better receiver to look at please enlighten.

What say the informed? Thanks.
post #2 of 31
Quote:
Receiver: Denon AVR-1913 ... (I like this because I can feed FM radio to my adjoining workshop room. It is somewhat vague in the description, but I believe this receiver has a built in FM tuner correct? Also, please inform the ignorant here, will I need a separate Amplifier to adequately power the speakers listed below?
The AVR-1913 has a built-in FM tuner. No AM tuner, though.

You won't need a separate amp unless you intend on running your system at fairly loud levels. If you intend on using a separate amp, you'll need an AVR with multi-channel analogue pre-outputs.

A good brand of relatively-inexpensive amps is Emotiva. Options inlude:
- a UPA-2 to run your mains (with your AVR running your center + surrounds + Zone 2);
- an XPA-3 to run your mains + center (with your AVR running your surrounds + Zone 2); and
- a UPA-5 running your mains + center (with your AVR running your surrounds + Zone 2) or all five HT speakers (with your AVR running Zone 2).
Edited by eljaycanuck - 1/22/13 at 10:46am
post #3 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

The AVR-1913 has a built-in FM tuner. No AM tuner, though.

You won't need a separate amp unless you intend on running your system at fairly loud levels. If you intend on using a separate amp, you'll need an AVR with multi-channel analogue pre-outputs.

A good brand of relatively-inexpensive amps is Emotiva. Options inlude:
- a UPA-2 to run your mains (with your AVR running your center + surrounds + Zone 2);
- an XPA-3 to run your mains + center (with your AVR running your surrounds + Zone 2); and
- a UPA-5 running your mains + center (with your AVR running your surrounds + Zone 2) or all five HT speakers (with your AVR running Zone 2).

I'm not sure how loud is fairly loud. I'd like to approximately duplicate the volume/sound levels perceived in most movie theaters if there is such an average. The Zone 2 speakers can be somewhat more quiet.

I do not want to be pushing my luck w/out an amplifier, if my vague descriptions give you any idea, please educate me. I am completely new to AVR's, amplifiers and HT speakers.
post #4 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by ejsg19 View Post

I am starting from scratch in a basement room, new studs in an otherwise never finished cement wall basement, 8' ceilings, spray foam wall, fiberglass ceiling joists, etc. Not going to concern myself with the very best in sound proofing, because this project is on a deadline and it just isn't that critical to our needs.

To the point...

We have picked out the following equipment and I will state my questions if any on each item. What I would like to know is your opinions on cost vs. quality of this setup, and if you would go another route, please indicate what route and why.

Receiver: Denon AVR-1913 7.1 Channel 3D Pass Through and Networking Home Theater Receiver with AirPlay and Powered Zone-2 Capability (I like this because I can feed FM radio to my adjoining workshop room. It is somewhat vague in the description, but I believe this receiver has a built in FM tuner correct? Also, please inform the ignorant here, will I need a separate Amplifier to adequately power the speakers listed below?

Front main L&R Speakers: Infinity Primus P363 Three-way dual 6-1/2-Inch Floorstanding Speaker

Center Speaker: Infinity Primus PC351 Three-way dual 5-1/4-Inch Speaker

Subwoofer: Infinity Primus PS410 10-Inch 300-Watt Powered Subwoofer

Rear L&R Speakers: Infinity Primus P163BK Two-way 6 1/2-Inch Bookshelf/Satellite Speaker (I am not in love with having external speakers for the rear's, so if there is a comparable in-wall recessed speaker please let me know. I also need two satellite speakers for the workshop room on the other side of the wall, but have no idea what to buy for decent radio or CD listening.

My big question is will this receiver handle these speakers alone, or do I need an amplifier to be safe?

Next, I don't need top of the line sound quality, but I don't want to be saddled with junk either. Have I landed in a nice middle of the road area for quality and cost?

I intend to use the Zone 2 for the adjoining room, but am not dead set on this Denon if you think there is a better receiver to look at please enlighten.

What say the informed? Thanks.

Note that with this AVR you will be able to have 5.1 in your HT and two speakers in your work shop. If you want 7.1 in your HT, then you can't have the two speakers in the work shop. The AVR does not have line out for zone 2 so powering zone 2 with an external amp is not a choice.
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post #5 of 31
check the budget subwoofer thread - for $300 I'm sure you can get a better performing sub
post #6 of 31
^^^ check that thread for sure and if your looking at new Denon receivers you should check the first couple posts in this thread http://www.avsforum.com/t/1409431/the-official-denon-avr-xx13-model-owners-thread-faq
post #7 of 31
Thread Starter 
Thanks everyone, I have some reading to do for sure.

Can you recommend an amp that would compliment this system well while being reasonably priced to the rest of the system?
post #8 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by ejsg19 View Post

Thanks everyone, I have some reading to do for sure.

Can you recommend an amp that would compliment this system well while being reasonably priced to the rest of the system?

No amp will compliment a Denon 1913. The AVR does not have any preouts so an amp can not be used with it.
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post #9 of 31
If you could give us your total budget for this HT project we could better help you out. You are on the right track but a few things could definitely be improved upon.
post #10 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

No amp will compliment a Denon 1913. The AVR does not have any preouts so an amp can not be used with it.

Ah, yes I forgot about that.

Well, my question is two fold then:
1. What 2 zone capable receiver would be of equivalent quality and price to the Denon 1913?
2. What amp would you recommend to go with this new substitute AVR?
post #11 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by flickhtguru View Post

If you could give us your total budget for this HT project we could better help you out. You are on the right track but a few things could definitely be improved upon.

Right now, the original set of equipment in my OP will set me back about $1700 or so. So I guess I'd keep the budget to $2000 max for the audio equipment, as I also have to pick up a large TV soon.
post #12 of 31
I am going with the Pioneer sc-1222. It does everything I need it to do (which is similar to what you need it to do) but doesn't have a 12v trigger switch for an amp. Newegg has it on sale for $550 after coupon discount
post #13 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by UGAd13 View Post

check the budget subwoofer thread - for $300 I'm sure you can get a better performing sub
x2!!!! The Infintiy PS410 is a rip off at $300 there are plenty of budget subwoofers which will to better. One being the Klipsch RW-12d which sells for $300 when on sale and has amazing performance
Quote:
Originally Posted by ejsg19 View Post

Thanks everyone, I have some reading to do for sure.

Can you recommend an amp that would compliment this system well while being reasonably priced to the rest of the system?
You do NOT need an amp.

The Denon AVR-1913 delivers 70watts per channel at 5 channels driven, which is plenty of power given that the Infinity's are pretty sensitive speakers at 93db.

Most people here are on the extreme side of the the sound so they spend money on additional amps but their receivers have pre-outs and they usually upgrade to an addittional amp after they spend your full budget on a subwoofer alone. You need a different receiver if you want to run an additional amp

A Denon AVR-1913 with the infinty speakers you mention plus a quality subwoofer from HSU, Rhythmic, or Outlaw
post #14 of 31
You do not really need an Amp

If you want a budget sub that will hit hard - look at the Cadence CSX12
http://www.cadencesound.com/products/CSX12-Mark-II.html

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/review-cadence-csx-12-mark-ii-subwoofer?page=0,2

However, if you skip the Amp thing - you can buy something like the
HSU, Outlaw or Rythmik subs
post #15 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyrob425 View Post

x2!!!! The Infintiy PS410 is a rip off at $300 there are plenty of budget subwoofers which will to better. One being the Klipsch RW-12d which sells for $300 when on sale and has amazing performance
You do NOT need an amp.

The Denon AVR-1913 delivers 70watts per channel at 5 channels driven, which is plenty of power given that the Infinity's are pretty sensitive speakers at 93db.

Most people here are on the extreme side of the the sound so they spend money on additional amps but their receivers have pre-outs and they usually upgrade to an addittional amp after they spend your full budget on a subwoofer alone. You need a different receiver if you want to run an additional amp

A Denon AVR-1913 with the infinty speakers you mention plus a quality subwoofer from HSU, Rhythmic, or Outlaw

Perfect! I really don't want to have another component if I don't need one. Like I say, if I can reach the volume levels of a typical movie theater, while maintaining sound quality, that is all I'm after. Some day when my now 2 mo old Daughter is old enough to blow the speakers out listening to whatever God awful boy band there is at the time, I'll be ready to upgrade anyway I suppose.
post #16 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zieglj01 View Post

You do not really need an Amp

If you want a budget sub that will hit hard - look at the Cadence CSX12
http://www.cadencesound.com/products/CSX12-Mark-II.html

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/review-cadence-csx-12-mark-ii-subwoofer?page=0,2

However, if you skip the Amp thing - you can buy something like the
HSU, Outlaw or Rythmik subs

You guys probably want to hit me in the head with a ballpeen hammer by now with my ignorance...

Thank you for your help so far. So on the Sub:

Would I be comparing apples to apples roughly when I say I should decide between the following subs?

http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/lfm1plus.html - Outlaw LFM-1, higher priced than the others by about $150. The lower model is out of stock on their website. I assume this would be quite an upgrade to the sub I listed in the OP (Infinity Primus)?

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/stf-2.html - HSU STF-2 @ $329 +$40 shipping is cheaper than the Infinity Primus in the OP. Lot better? The specs may as well be in Japanese to me.

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/FV12.html Rythmik F12 Paper cone.

What is the deal with "paper cone vs aluminum cone"? I'm one that always over-builds and anything made out of "paper" automatically sends up a red flag to me. Are paper cone sub's worth their money and still last upwards of 10 years under proper use or what?
post #17 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by ejsg19 View Post

Would I be comparing apples to apples roughly when I say I should decide between the following subs?

http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/lfm1plus.html - Outlaw LFM-1, higher priced than the others by about $150. The lower model is out of stock on their website. I assume this would be quite an upgrade to the sub I listed in the OP (Infinity Primus)?

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/stf-2.html - HSU STF-2 @ $329 +$40 shipping is cheaper than the Infinity Primus in the OP. Lot better? The specs may as well be in Japanese to me.

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/FV12.html Rythmik F12 Paper cone.

What is the deal with "paper cone vs aluminum cone"? I'm one that always over-builds and anything made out of "paper" automatically sends up a red flag to me. Are paper cone sub's worth their money and still last upwards of 10 years under proper use or what?

Paper cone woofers last a long time - it is all about the design/engineering as a whole, when talking about
subwoofers - aluminum is not that big a deal to me. I would choose Rythmik or Outlaw from your list >>>
For HSU, I would aim for one of their bigger ones.
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-2mk4.html
post #18 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by ejsg19 View Post


http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/lfm1plus.html - Outlaw LFM-1, higher priced than the others by about $150. The lower model is out of stock on their website. I assume this would be quite an upgrade to the sub I listed in the OP (Infinity Primus)?

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/stf-2.html - HSU STF-2 @ $329 +$40 shipping is cheaper than the Infinity Primus in the OP. Lot better? The specs may as well be in Japanese to me.

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/FV12.html Rythmik F12 Paper cone.

The FV12 and the LFM-1 Plus are in another performance class from the other subs you have been considering, and there are no better values at their price point for an HT setup. The HSU VTF-2 MK4 is the comparable sub to those two in the HSU lineup. If you can step up to one of those three, it is a worthwhile investment. They will hit harder, have deeper extension, and better SQ than all the other subs you are considering.
post #19 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

The FV12 and the LFM-1 Plus are in another performance class from the other subs you have been considering, and there are no better values at their price point for an HT setup. The HSU VTF-2 MK4 is the comparable sub to those two in the HSU lineup. If you can step up to one of those three, it is a worthwhile investment. They will hit harder, have deeper extension, and better SQ than all the other subs you are considering.

I see.

My thing is I cannot stand buying garbage for lack of a better term, then 3 months later finding out spending XX percentage more would have left me with nothing but a pleasurable experience. At that point I consider the entire cost of the first purchase a total loss as I want to make a small upgrade later.


So an FV12, LFM-1 or a VTF-2 MK4 are apples to apples, with no clear winner, all being a good choice? If so, that is outstanding, and I am content. Going from $400 to $550 on the sub is not a deal breaker if it alleviates any concerns about the purchase down the road.

I don't need a $2000 sub, but $150 +/- is worth not having the hassle.
post #20 of 31
Heres my thread with pics showing where i ended up for $1600 or so ( not including wire, mounts install costs etc )
thought it might help:)

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1427180/install-done-kef-iqs#post_22621602
post #21 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by ejsg19 View Post

So an FV12, LFM-1 or a VTF-2 MK4 are apples to apples, with no clear winner, all being a good choice?

When mainly in this area - it tends to come down to preference and nit-picking
post #22 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by zieglj01 View Post

When mainly in this area - it tends to come down to preference and nit-picking

+1

That, and one of those three subs might sound better in your room, and another one in my HT setup because of the different room interactions and sub placement options. And you can't predict that.
post #23 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

+1

That, and one of those three subs might sound better in your room, and another one in my HT setup because of the different room interactions and sub placement options. And you can't predict that.

Fair enough. Lets consider the Subwoofer settled then. Thank you very much those that commented.

What about the rest of the speakers? Decent for the money, given my circumstances at least? From the OP:
Quote:
Front main L&R Speakers: Infinity Primus P363 Three-way dual 6-1/2-Inch Floorstanding Speaker

Center Speaker: Infinity Primus PC351 Three-way dual 5-1/4-Inch Speaker

Rear L&R Speakers: Infinity Primus P163BK Two-way 6 1/2-Inch Bookshelf/Satellite Speaker

Also if there are some recessed, in wall Satellite speakers which would equal or exceed the ones quoted, for the same budget, I would be very interested. I have open stud walls right now, and the wire pulled, so all options are available for another week or two before insulation and drywall is done.
Edited by ejsg19 - 1/24/13 at 7:01pm
post #24 of 31
Subwoofer settled? I didn't see a choice made.

And the choice to make is the Outlaw LFM-1 Plus

There is a difference, and the tip DOES go to Outlaw at these price points.

In a word...simply "breathtaking" LF reproduction. I personally have spec'd them for rooms ranging from 300 sq. ft. (1) to 900+ sq. ft (2 or 4) and they never...nay, cannot disappoint.. cool.gif

They are a Sub that sounds the same in in situation. Superb.

***Paid for the "Citizens for Outlaw Activities Committee"
post #25 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Subwoofer settled? I didn't see a choice made.

And the choice to make is the Outlaw LFM-1 Plus

There is a difference, and the tip DOES go to Outlaw at these price points.

In a word...simply "breathtaking" LF reproduction. I personally have spec'd them for rooms ranging from 300 sq. ft. (1) to 900+ sq. ft (2 or 4) and they never...nay, cannot disappoint.. cool.gif

They are a Sub that sounds the same in in situation. Superb.

***Paid for the "Citizens for Outlaw Activities Committee"

This room is about 180 sq. ft. smile.gif
post #26 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by ejsg19 View Post

This room is about 180 sq. ft. smile.gif

Yep. In that size room, you are fine with any of those three subs you have been considering. Watch Immortals, and your sub should make you think the tidal wave is in the room with you or that your walls are coming down with the mountain does. biggrin.gif
post #27 of 31
I am new to this myself, but I've done some research on the multizone and hopefully one of the pros can confirm this. If you can step up to the Denon 2113, then you you can use the two powered channels for the workshop and have 5.1 in the main zone, plus in the future if you want to go to 7.1, you can just add an amp to the zone two output for the workshop speakers. nice easy phased approached once 7.1 becomes the norm. Plus you get an extra 5W per channel and the option of preamps if your worried about volume. The 2113 can be had refurbished for $420 on accessories4less right now.
post #28 of 31
Thread Starter 
well all of my speakers showed up today, and stupid me for not knowing any better, the P163 Infinity Primus bookshelf speakers do not have provisions for wall mounting, although Amazon's description said they did.

So with all of the above thread in mind, will the P153 model be a terrible choice for any reason? The instruction book that came with the P163 says the P153 does in fact have wall mounts built in.

I really don't want to build shelves for all 4 of these P163's...
post #29 of 31
Those are your surrounds, right? Why not. You might have to cross the P153s over at higher crossover, but they should work fine for the rear.
post #30 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Those are your surrounds, right? Why not. You might have to cross the P153s over at higher crossover, but they should work fine for the rear.

Correct, they are what I thought I'd use for the surrounds.

Frankly, something with a smaller profile would be good. These P163's are pretty big, considering space concerns in the room.

Open to suggestions for good surround speakers in the $100 or less range, I am returning the P163's to Amazon based on the wall mount difficulty and their overall size.

Otherwise I figured the P153's are my next best solution, hopefully without sacrificing too much quality
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