Possible to DIY the B&W 800 Diamond? - Page 3

The build in that video is amazing, but then he shows what he is powering them with... Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Emotiva amps, but it's like building a big block muscle car and throwing a 4 cyl engine in it. I could be totally off base here, but most 800d owners would probably be using a mark levinson or similar quality amp would they not?

Based on the timbre of this thread I certainly won't venture into the amp sound debate, but I will note the 800s I listened to in a home were powered with a Boulder pre and amp with an Accuphase digital front end. He also had a wildly expensive looking table but not being a vinyl guy I didn't bother to inspect it. But based on the visual job he did with the B&W clone if he said he could build a ML, Boulder or Bryston amp clone with scrap metal I would be inclined to accept his word...

I'm surprised how many people dont like the 800D look. It's one of my favourite looking speakers.

that car metaphor is literally the worst metaphor I've ever read in my life.

I aim to please.

Lol I just was this and was about to post it as well. You beat me to it by only 8 hours

DJoel

There's a link above, and I don't. I believe in half space anechoic, measured at sufficient distance to allow the integration of the individual wavefronts. And one doesn't have to estimate sensitivity, you measure it. In any event, looking at the Stereophile result, we are not impressed. I could bitch slap that puppy for way under two grand.

These were my neighbors. They lived 250ft away on both sides of me. (13 acres of land).
I could annoy them with this song with my "small/lowly" 803's and 9 subs (30,000watts); without opening a single window or door.






I have 2000watts going just to the top two drivers in this vid: mid and tweet here. "Not loud enough" they say. hehe... People that have heard my system in person have told me on many occasions that they are going deaf when they listen to my system at this SPL, but are shocked that it sounds spectacular and distortion free when doing so It's loud enough for my purposes and 99% of my guests


Note: This example I'm uploading here, isn't considered Hi-Fi, nor good SQ at all, it's just an example of something Police-callingly LOUD! and that's is just with the "small/lowly" 803's with no subs going!!!

I agree 800 series goes loud, but I doubt your neighbors could hear them from inside their house, it woulda been your subs.

Just so your ears hold up! When I was younger I liked loud music sometimes, but now I can't stand it anymore. Rarely listen to music over 90db peaks anymore.

No, he did not forget the port on the bottom. You see the cut out for the port on this picture.

I wouldn't be surprised if a pair of statements would sound as good or better than these. They are a completely different formfactor however. The biggest issue with a DIY design IMO is nailing the midrange with both clarity and sensativity. 90 db 1/w 1/m would be tough to ask out of a lot of midranges, unless you go with a pro-style driver. Again, I think 2 dayton reference 10" woofers would easily match the bottom end of this guy.

As far as the Emotiva amp not being enough for $8,000 speakers, I'd have to disagree with that statement. Emotiva makes some good products that offer high value.

I like emotiva amps too, so my post wasn't meant to trash. What I'm saying is typically those who have speakers of that caliber or price range will typically snub "value" amplifiers in favor of things that cost far more and offer a very small real world performance increase.

but he built them himself so it wouldn't make sense if he spends more on amps then he did on speakers...

It is odd form, I would say poor form to discount the methodology of empirical testing then use it to form conclusions based on that very data. I find it even more interesting you use the pluralis maiestatis but I suppose it makes sense sitting alongside your last statement...

It is clear that many here hear with their eyes, I however prefer to use my ears, well after my monthly E-R-O treatment. I use my ears because I am a neanderthal and my ears can evaluate sound thousands of times faster than my eyes looking at data points, all that time spatially locating saber tooth tigers and what not. I may evolve enough one day to be able to hear with my eyes, but actually it is a day I am not looking forward to, Hendrix would look horrible on paper.

I will say I admire the hubris but the last statement sets up a pretty clear put up or shut up senario.




Et tu David?

The high-end Emotiva stuff gets very close to matching Classe or McIntosh gear on many levels.
I personally think their amps could be a bit better built, a bit too much distortion than the aforementioned from the graphs I've seen, but I've never heard their amps in person so I will reserve final judgement until I do.

I've tried the XPA-2, XPA-3, and the XPA-1's which happen to be Mono's and those are amazing for their price, the other two I wasn't too impress.
They have a new line which might be allot better than what I've heard so far.

Djoel

You found the monoblocks to be better than the xpa-2 and xpa-3? Like better sounding or?

To my ears that would be a yes, better than both the 3, and the 2 channel, the mono were smoother, then again they're rated at 500 wpc


Djoel

What levels would those be? I've never had a positive experience with a Classe setup, but as far as Mac goes, they're voiced to be slightly warm, where Emo is the opposite.

If that is true, I would not want to use either of those brands amps, since there are plenty of manufacturers whose amps don't 'color' the music. I don't believe amps 'color' music, I buy pro amps and I shop for watts. The key to good sound is not 'Diamond' tweeters that are being driven by 'warm' or 'cold' sounding amps. Room treatment is key. Each year at CES it's the same story - the press can't pass judgement on six-figure speaker systems because the acoustics in the showrooms are no good. Most high-end audio rigs have the room's acoustics to thank for how good they sound - not what materials the driver is made out of or how the amplifier was 'voiced'. It is up to the preamp to define the 'character' of the sound being produced. Relying on the amp to do this goes against the whole purpose of the device - increasing the voltage without altering the waveform.

So long as the 'replica' speaker outperforms the original 800D in key areas, IMO it would be possible to use DSP to precisely match the the replica to the original - enough to make telling the speakers apart in double-blind testing impossible. Brand of amplifier has nothing to do with it & 'synergy' is absolutely a synonym for snake oil.

Edited by imagic - 1/25/13 at 4:11am

I think one thing that is not often stated, is that not everyone likes a speaker that measures flat, especially for theater, and some times for music, especially when the music is rock, or classic rock. To me, a lot of speakers that measure flat sound flat too, as well as lifeless/dead and/or anemic. Now granted, not all flat measuring speakers sound this way too everyone, but they do me. I think that sometimes we, as audiophiles, put too much emphasis on getting the speakers' frequency response to measure this way. I know for myself, when auditioning speakers, I liked the Klipsch RF-63 better than the Salk Songtower QWT for AC/DC and Metallica. I found this result over and over after auditioning several speaker brands' for music. I do like to listen to music other than hard rock, from time to time, and on some of the other types of music that I like, such as blue grass or jazz, I much preferred the Salk Songtower QWT, (which I used to own) as well as the Ascend Acoustics Sierra-1 (which I currently own), over the Klipsch and Definitive Technology speakers that I used to own as well.

So with that being said, I think the fact that the B&W 800D2 does not measure perfectly flat, is probably the reason that so many people like it so much. Like other studies have stated, some folks prefer to hear some even/odd order distortion over not having any distortion, and I don't know about any of you guys, but I found that for me, personally, I do not like speakers that measure perfectly flat, such as the Salks or Ascends, for all music, all the time. For home theater, I also preferred the Klipsch to the Salks. (even when listening a low volumes). Take this for what its worth. I just figured that there has to be more folks out there that probably feel this way....

A good EQ will take care of business, easily making those 'flat' i.e. accurate speakers sound pleasing. EQ and preamp, that's where you shape sound. Amps and speakers, that's where you try and minimise distortions and coloration. It's the EQ settings that make different genres sound 'right', depending on the listeners taste.

It comes down to this - the 'beliefs' held by some audiophiles are amusing (at best) to professionals who deal with sound. After all, how can a recording engineer possibly be expected to create a final mix through 'flat' studio monitors when a cold-sounding amp is coloring the sound - maybe swapping out the cables will help? (sarcasm alert) lols.

I absolutely agree that different speakers can and do have a markedly different sound from each other (unlike amplifiers)... but passing judgement on speakers without auditioning them all in the same space is going to result in erroneous conclusions. The room has too much effect on the sound, which is why a speaker designer's goal should be faithful reproduction of sound.

Edited by imagic - 1/25/13 at 5:46am

I guess I should be more clear, I was refering to their other products other than amps. I would say SNR, distortion, and basic features of the equipment; very close, about 95% close.

I own Emotiva and Rotel, I've heard NAD and Classe in demo rooms (SSP-800 and CA mono's) but not Mac or Bryston yet. So far the Classe is the best I've heard.
I used to own Yamaha and HK, which sounds like garbage to me by comparison; but that was 7 years ago... maybe they have improved, maybe they haven't.

Which EQ would that be?
I tried my BFD and EmoQ V1.0 and they both worked but degraded the sound quality to what I would expect out of a low-fi system.
I haven't tried by DEQ or DCX on tweeters yet but I would expect the same.

So are you refering to miniDSP or Audyssey or something even beefier?

More telling is that people like how it sounds even though it doesn't measure flat. For that matter most high end speakers are no more flat than the average $500 cab. As for why people like it, I think you have to look at something other than response.

Beaming upper mids, ragged high end, no thanks.

Yeah actually I'm not being fair, I'm thinking VST software EQ, which requires a HTPC and some knowledge. You do get potential for 64-bit processing, infinite presets, infinite editing, infinite control yadayada but nothing 'plug and play' about it, I admit. But, we're talking DIY so almost anything goes. I use Ableton Live. For VST I like Filterscape, which can be use with foobar to process regular audio (iTunes etc).. I've got more EQ than you can shake a stick at.

Not that I'm actually doing any of that. My system is working great, what little EQ I need I get from the Crown XTi amps. Basic tweaks of bass and treble to give a nice, near flat 'house curve'. Once I got to four subwoofers and did a refurb on my mains, the need for extensive EQ went away.

Edited by imagic - 1/25/13 at 10:46am

Its interesting how how some folks hear differences and some don't. Neither is wrong...If you hear a diffference, you hear a difference. If you don't, you don't. Watt for Watt, spec for spec, I don't. I have had and have listened to everything from Mac to Bryston, rotel, classe,emo, outlaw, anthem,AR, etc. I have not found that I can tell a difference from one well built amp to another. Now I will say that this is limited to well built amps IMO, but that is a whole other debate in itself. I know its been gone over time and again, so I won't go to far, and I'm sure there are far more experienced folks out there reading this. The entire reason that I have jumped into the DIY world as of late is based on my experience with "high end". I had the chance to purchase the 802d for less than half retial this year from a friend who owns a local boutique and I passed. They just don't do it for me and for him, they are the best of the best. Different strokes.

Well, getting the look right would take a master cabinet builder, something I could never attempt... I wont hesitate to say this would get at least 95% of the way to the 800D


On axis and 45 degrees off axis


Even though the woofers dip down to 3.2 ohm, the smooth impedance and phase would make these very easy to drive


Yes, the cabinet would need some serious shaping vs what my poor sketchup skills show

The mid and tweeter are among the lowest distortion available regardless of price, and the woofers have very impressive capability. DIY FTW.

http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/scanspeak-soft-dome-tweeters/scanspeak-discovery-d2608/9130-1-textile-dome-hds-tweeter/
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=264-857
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=297-453

That's $1200 in drivers
Edited by Jay1 - 1/25/13 at 1:32pm